Fiery Zac

Ah yes, how could I forget Killen. Actually how could you remind me about Killen!

Wow yes - Alan Gow, Jonathan Grounds, David Mooney What a season that was 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️

The 'Doc' in almost every game at a half decent level (for which we bought him) The crowning glory was the FA cup game against Charlton (Roeders last game I believe?). He received the ball about mid way in our half and was shaping to pass to our left back at the time. He then smacked the ball harder than I've ever seen a pass needed to be hit, about 20 yards short of where the LB was, straight into the hoardings. It perfectly encapsulated the evening and complete inept ability of his to do anything worthwhile on a football pitch. Another moment worth an honorable mention - in League 1 against Wycombe, he had a ball played to his feet (perfectly paced) managed to let it crawl under his foot and then started running around in circles like a headless chicken wondering where the ball had gone. Awful player. Entertaining, but awful.

Decent players make the most of bad situations and find a way to shine no matter the manager/tactics/squad. Holt managed to look good in a Hughton team Pukki has scored 10 goals in one of the worst sides to ever be in the PL RvW was just bad. Stop with the excuses. He had brittle legs, little speed, no awareness, a minute amount of passing ability and absolutely no strength whatsoever. His finishing was OK but he was never a top level player and has repeatedly proven this.

???? What?? Neither were good at that stage. Arsenal had had a very poor start to the season which was largely due to injuries, covid etc. Leicester were in indifferent form, again largely due to injuries, in defence which has lasted the majority of the season. Therfore neither were part of the 'best teams in the league'. Arsenal have become that and Leicester have continued to struggle due to injuries and form. I'm not sure what's difficult to understand. I'm talking about what was happening at the beginning of the season. Not now, not last season or the season before, but the first 4 games of the season. Against the top 2 we had little chance and Farke cannot be blamed (even though he has beaten Man City in the past 🙂) but Arsenal and Leicester were not part of the best in the league at that time and we could have got something against them (much like Brentford managed, without much difficulty)

Youre talking about now, and the past - im actually talking about what was being discussed - the first 4 games of the season. Arsenal were not looking anything like a top 4 team at the beginning of the season. Look at their starting 11 that day, and their performances. Yes they're now a very good side, but we're not talking about now. The claim was we 'played the 4 of the best teams in the league'. I never said it doesn't apply to Leicester. Stop making it up as you go along! Very simply - We did not play 4 of the best teams in the league at the start of the season. We played by far the best 2 and, at the time, two struggling biggish teams who were still very much finding their feet in the season. We were so poor we couldn't capitalise on their frailties. So the excuse of playing the best teams doesn't wash (imo)

The rewriting was already done when it was claimed we played 4 of the best teams in the league. We didn't. Ok I should've been more specific. We looked weak in defence. And we rarely threatened considering we were playing a very poor Leicester side. We did deserve more that day and yet didn't get it. Damning.

Also depends on context. Liverpool and Man City obviously were and are the best teams in the league. Arsenal were most definitely not one of the best teams in the league at that point. Lost 3 in a row without scoring. Then barely troubled against us. Leicester...are 14th. Not played well all season yet, we looked weak and rarely threatened. My metric is my eyes. Farkes Norwich was even worse than Smith's. Smith had a plan, one that showed promise. Farke had lost all sense of his own philosophy and partially retrieved it for too late.

Sigh. NO! Farke was given 2 transfer windows, summers of pre season and a whole season to implement his style of play...in the far inferior Championship.....and even then it didn't click until mid September of his second season, there were plenty calling for his head until then (1-1 at Portaloo Road anyone? Battle at the bottom). Smith has had hardly any time. He's had to try and change it in the PL after an embarrassing start. He recognised the limitations and weaknesses and set us up accordingly. They doesn't mean that's how he wants us to play or how we will in the championship next season, it was simply trying to do the best with one of the worst PL squads in history.

Took over a Bruce side in 14th and playing awful football Transformed the playing style in weeks Grealish injury halted their initial rise (imagine being without Emi for 3 months) Dramatic run at end of season to reach and win play offs Yes it was a decent squad but plenty of managers fail with better squads. He worked with the squad he had and maximised their potential. Tried here and got initial results but injuries and reality of how poor a squad we have told. Don't see any of that as a reason to want rid now. Turned Villa round in less than a season. Farke achieved it with us in 2. Yes the squad was better but still impressive, so why why why do some fans want rid so badly?

'Out of his depth' 🤣 you said the same thing about Farke in the championship! Fair enough you then apologised for it (hard not to really 😁) but this is why I won't put much weight in your argument this time round. Also as already said, Farke was heavily criticised for his actions on the touchline in the early days. Uninspiring, robotic, silent...all too often shouted around the ground between fans. Couldn't possibly be the same, 'player improves the more be doesn't play' syndrome but with managers this time could it?

Are we really at the stage of wanting a manager out because they drink tea from a mug before the game??? 🤣🤣🤣

But the same argument was made for Farkes first season, that he was out of his depth and clueless etc etc. That was in the championship. Smith has a good record, and despite this season, has got his previous clubs playing attractive football. I dont believe he should be judged solely on what limited time he's had here. The squad isn't good enough, not his fault yet he had a system that played to the very few strengths and avoided the issues (midfield). Who would have kept us up that we could realistically have got? Knutsen doesn't know the league. Lampard is making hard work of it with a much better squad than ours. I simply believe he is the best option we have for now and deserves time to show us what he wants to do and how he wants us to play.

Me too, and no worries. I'm normally at the game so can vent my passion and frustrations there. Always dangerous doing that on a message board!

Fair enough. I don't believe what we've seen under Smith is his style and system but simply the only style and system he could implement with the poor squad he inherited that may result in getting any points at the top level. It worked on occasion and we'll never know what may have happened had injuries not happened over Xmas and then Idah being out for the rest of the season. I look forward to seeing his style and system implemented, and he will then rightly be judged if he can take the club forward.

The bit about passion was a constant critisism of Farke in the early days. I sit behind the away dugout and the amount of shouting at him to show some passion/fight etc grew and grew during that first season of his. It wasn't Farkes style and it appears it isn't Smith's either. As Farke proved, it makes little to no difference to the performances and results on the pitch. He needs the chance to have the squad and footballing philosopy his way. Farke was given time to build HIS NCFC, why doesn't Smith deserve the same?

Thanks. I think our main disagreement is on how we'll get on next season. Who knows, it's certainly a big job over the summer. I do think Smith deserves a chance though, much like Farke got (and we know what happened there.) Too much change also makes the challenge that much bigger at another time where we need to be bouncing back ASAP. OTBC

Not interested in a pointless back and forth, 'but you meant this..' argument. Happy to debate but won't have my words twisted (so really shouldn't be on here at all I suppose.) One last time, my point was we have won the championship after being relegated, without making the radical changes you insist we must if we are to have a chance of even staying up next season! At no point did i say we will be fine however. That is very much dependent on the summer, integration, new philosophy etc. But I think writing off next seasons ambitions already is foolish.

🤦‍♂️ I never said we will be fine next season just because we were last time. That's what you said I had said, and that's what you made up.

Not as confident as last time certainly. But I don't believe Smith has had a chance to make his mark on the club yet. He's done what he can with the poor squad he's walked in to. He deserves the chance to create his side, make his signings and (most importantly) get the team to play the way he wants them to, not just the way he thinks is a way to get some results in the PL with a non-PL squad.

Exactly. I said we have gone down, kept the board/management and much of the playing staff the same and bounced back. I never said that is what will happen. My argument is writing off next season without having major changes is ridiculous.

Hmm, selective quoting. Clever. The next sentence talks about anger and what I believe is an overreaction of some fans to the club/situation and, wrongly other fans.

Never said that. Don't make up what I'm saying

Also you do realise club's have been promoted in the past without Buendia and Skipp? (Including us). At least I'm not burying my head in the past. I look forward to the next star, the next transfer steal, up and coming loan, or free transfer.

Has it been announced we're signing no one this summer? Thanks for your concern and being 'literally' embarrassed for me 🤣 I just don't take it all as seriously as it seems some on here do. I cant get angry enough to start talking so abusively about the club or its fans. I'm also not going to overreact about a season that hasn't even started yet. I've heard all this angry nonsense before and now it's just funny, because the seasons some oracles on here have predicted would result in relegation or mid table mediocrity have been... somewhat different. You need to look up what delusional means before using it so readily