tom cavendish

[quote user="Mr.Carrow"] I`ve already said the clubs marketing/ticketing policies have been good but the fact is they are tapping into a huge captive market. [/quote] My argument is that the Board have done a good job of that and deserve some credit for it even though things have not been good with managers.

[quote user="Herb"]Funny how most of the people who say "NO!" are the same people who would happily see City sold to a faceless investor - any faceless investor - with intentions unknown. Be careful what you wish for. [/quote] Indeed and one of the dangers of having NCFC having new owners, is that a lot of investors(owners) in football clubs actually secure their loans against the stadium so they can gamble a fortune on players and if it does not work out then the owners can still get their money back even if the club goes into admin.

[quote user="SPat"][quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="Mr.Carrow"] Tom, Kings Lynn is part of City`s catchment area because the club attracts alot of support from that area (and yes, i know this for a fact).  If you don`t understand this then you don`t know a great deal about our club.  You haven`t answered where you think the 200k or so people of the Yarmouth and Lowestoft areas go to watch their footy.  Do they swim over to Holland? Now how about going over to the Derby boards and giving them your ludicrous patronisation?  A City with the same urban population of Norwich (INCLUDING suburbs before you quote your stupid 125k), getting 30,000 near the foot of the Champs.  Why?  Because they are a county club with a decent history and support- the same as Norwich.  Both clubs have plenty of potential to get significantly more given a modicum of success. [/quote] Can''t argue with any of that Mr Carrow. I know for a fact that many of the people I regularly travel away with are from Lynn, Yarmouth and Lowestoft areas. I would imagine that if you could find out the ratio of ST holders from the between City and County one or two folk would get a surprise. In fact we have strong and active support from a lot further than that. Norwich and Norfolk is a special place and I believe many more "Ex Pats" stay loyal than do from other counties. [/quote] Indeed. I was born but have never lived in Norwich. Grew up in Suffolk, spent most of my adult life in Nottingham but a long family history was and still is from Norwich and it has a special place in my heart. I know at least 10 other people from Nottingham who may never live in Norfolk again but will follow City through thick and thin. [/quote] So you were born in Norwich and your family is from Norwich which proves my point that the main catchment area is Norwich.

[quote user="reacher"] 1. He has no managerial experience 2.He had 19 games in charge enough time to impress and came up way short. 3.He has no tactical knowledge, just look at the Charlton game , wrong team selection and it took him till we were 3 down to realise we needed to change things. I will not accept any excuses from the board or gunny, if they say it was not his team that got us relegated, do not forget he was in charge of player recruitment under Roeders reign. He is big friends with Sir Alex Ferguson, did we get any loans from Old Trafford during this time, no but Burnley and Stoke  managed to get Chris Eagles and Ryan Shawcross between them good job done there then. What hope have we got if the board give him the job of rebuilding the whole team, I wrote a letter to the EDP  which was not published, when they gave him the job till the end of the season saying the boards decision could relegate us to league division one and that an experienced manager would keep us up. I am a Home and Away supporter, and feel so strongly about this decision that if Gunny is given the job I am seriously considering not wasting my money travelling away next season, our fabulous supporters deserve better. If the board make another drastic decision we could easily be heading to league division two. PS Gunny is a lovely bloke, City legend and City thru and thru but not management material, please board do not put him and his family through hell. [/quote] I would add that he couldn''t get the players motivated for the big games - games in which they shouldn''t even need motivating. So what hope at the likes of Tranmere, Yeovil, Brentford, Exeter etc. He has also said the we need experienced League One players to get out of League One - which is completely wrong. You need that extra bit of class to get out of League One. The likes of Swansea, Doncaster, and Bristol City were promoted with teams that played good football and provided a good foundation for the Championship.    

[quote user="USAcanary"]As I said in my previous post I am only interested in our "actual" debt this year. Thats the number that sends you into admin not how much you would or would not have earned. As already explained we would have had more income in the champs but also much bigger expenses.............. (in the real world they cancel each other out!) So how does that figure to make us any better off in the real world. The problems at the club are all due to poor board mangement of our expenses. We have a wage structure far too big for our position. Its no surprise that clubs like Us, Saints and Charlton are doing so badly yet teams like Swansea, Preston and Burnley have done much better on much lower incomes. They have built from the ground up. They have constructed a realistic club wage structure. They look for underated players looking for the chance to step up. Jason Scotland cost $25K AFTER a season of scoring a goal every other game. We can only move forward when we have some honesty about our position. That involves a total shakeup from top to bottom, mostly in the boardroon. We dont need the chaiman telling us he doesnt know anything technical about football! That statement should have been in his resignation letter FFS. Doncaster has a lot to answer for IMHO. He overlooks every single contract at the club yet we have paid way too much for mediocre players and have paid a ton of agent fees (bungs!) Over the last 2 years we have sold more (in money) players than we have bought. Thats why I think Munby/board blaming Roeder is pretty disgusting. Roeder actually achieved his goal in the first season with no money and a horrible squad. Sure he was a dick but was that frustration at the board. Anyone else want to call me a board apologist?[/quote] The manager (not the Board) makes judgements on how good a player is and how to spend his budget. Roeder thought that the club would get better value by signing lots of loan players. It was his policy not that of the Board''s.

[quote user="Mr.Carrow"][quote user="tom cavendish"][quote user="Mr.Carrow"] Tom, Kings Lynn is part of City`s catchment area because the club attracts alot of support from that area (and yes, i know this for a fact).  If you don`t understand this then you don`t know a great deal about our club.  You haven`t answered where you think the 200k or so people of the Yarmouth and Lowestoft areas go to watch their footy.  Do they swim over to Holland? Now how about going over to the Derby boards and giving them your ludicrous patronisation?  A City with the same urban population of Norwich (INCLUDING suburbs before you quote your stupid 125k), getting 30,000 near the foot of the Champs.  Why?  Because they are a county club with a decent history and support- the same as Norwich.  Both clubs have plenty of potential to get significantly more given a modicum of success. [/quote] Generally speaking, the further away people live the less likely they will become Norwich fans - yet you want to include people that live more than an hour''s drive away and NCFC isn''t even their nearest football league club. On your argument, you might as well include Norwich in the Ipswich catchment area because a number of people in Norwich support Ipswich. In fact, Norwich is closer to Ipswich than King''s Lynn. [/quote] More complete simplistic bilge.  I include them because like it or not it is a fact that we get lots of fans from those areas.  [/quote] LOL face it, the club have done well to attract so many new fans to games. Even during the glory days of finishing 3rd in the Premier League the average NCFC attendance was only 16,467.  

When someone tells me they support Man Utd I just say "I didn''t know that you were from Manchester" and ask them what they think of the transformation of the Arndale Centre (it''s a shopping Mall in Manchester). Or if someone says they are a Liverpool fan I say "I didn''t know that you were from Liverpool" and ask them what they think of the transformation of the Albert Dock. etc.

Darlington only got small crowds so didn''t need a 25,500 capacity stadium. If NCFC and the council had got their heads together then they could have put in plans for a new 40,000 stadium or extend CR to 40,000 and look to host World Cup matches as part of the England 2018 bid.

[quote user="Arthur Whittle OBE"][quote user="Mr.Carrow"][quote user="tom cavendish"][quote user="Mr.Carrow"][quote user="tom cavendish"][quote user="Mr.Carrow"] It`s called being responsible for your actions tom.  As i have said, i have a reasonable sum invested in shares, i make no interest, if i lose the lot i`ll take it on the chin just as i would if i invested in shares in a football club- i certainly wouldn`t expect support and blind loyalty for screwing up something which means so much to so many people. [/quote] I will ask again - Delia did not take any interest on the money she had loaned to the club. She later converted her loans to shares. Would you rather the club had paid her interest on her loans and that she had not converted her loans to shares? [/quote] No of course i wouldn`t tom and i`d be happy to see her get her money back.  Trouble is with non-player costs having risen by £10m since 2002 leaving next to nothing available to be spent on football (from the 2008 accounts), the club at its lowest level for 50 years and more in debt than its ever been, it`s not going to happen and she needs to accept she`s lost her gamble. Now, how many clubs of a similar stature are actually worse off than us at this moment in time?  When are you going to address my points about Birmingham and South Yorkshire re. catchment areas on the other thread?  If i`ve got it wrong, why can`t you tell me how? [/quote] Population of Barnsley = 222,100 Average attendance = 13,189 Population of Doncaster = 286,866 Average attendance = 11,963 Population of Rotherham = 248,175 Average attendance = 3,421 Population of Sheffield = 513,234 Average attendance of SW = 21,542 Average attendance of SU = 26,023 Population of (Greater) Norwich = 223,200 Average attendance = 24,543 [/quote] Population of South Yorkshire:  1.26m Combined average crowds of the areas five clubs:  75,000 Population of Norfolk and N.Suffolk:  1m plus Average crowd of its only club:  24,000 We are underachieving in terms of support given our catchment area.  Time to grow up and accept it. [/quote] Bump [/quote] Population of Kent = 1,646,900 Gillingham average attendance = 5,307  

[quote user="Mr.Carrow"] Tom, Kings Lynn is part of City`s catchment area because the club attracts alot of support from that area (and yes, i know this for a fact).  If you don`t understand this then you don`t know a great deal about our club.  You haven`t answered where you think the 200k or so people of the Yarmouth and Lowestoft areas go to watch their footy.  Do they swim over to Holland? Now how about going over to the Derby boards and giving them your ludicrous patronisation?  A City with the same urban population of Norwich (INCLUDING suburbs before you quote your stupid 125k), getting 30,000 near the foot of the Champs.  Why?  Because they are a county club with a decent history and support- the same as Norwich.  Both clubs have plenty of potential to get significantly more given a modicum of success. [/quote] Generally speaking, the further away people live the less likely they will become Norwich fans - yet you want to include people that live more than an hour''s drive away and NCFC isn''t even their nearest football league club. On your argument, you might as well include Norwich in the Ipswich catchment area because a number of people in Norwich support Ipswich. In fact, Norwich is closer to Ipswich than King''s Lynn.

[quote user="Mr.Carrow"][quote user="tom cavendish"][quote user="Mr.Carrow"] It`s called being responsible for your actions tom.  As i have said, i have a reasonable sum invested in shares, i make no interest, if i lose the lot i`ll take it on the chin just as i would if i invested in shares in a football club- i certainly wouldn`t expect support and blind loyalty for screwing up something which means so much to so many people. [/quote] I will ask again - Delia did not take any interest on the money she had loaned to the club. She later converted her loans to shares. Would you rather the club had paid her interest on her loans and that she had not converted her loans to shares? [/quote] No of course i wouldn`t tom and i`d be happy to see her get her money back.  Trouble is with non-player costs having risen by £10m since 2002 leaving next to nothing available to be spent on football (from the 2008 accounts), the club at its lowest level for 50 years and more in debt than its ever been, it`s not going to happen and she needs to accept she`s lost her gamble. Now, how many clubs of a similar stature are actually worse off than us at this moment in time?  When are you going to address my points about Birmingham and South Yorkshire re. catchment areas on the other thread?  If i`ve got it wrong, why can`t you tell me how? [/quote] Population of Barnsley = 222,100 Average attendance = 13,189 Population of Doncaster = 286,866 Average attendance = 11,963 Population of Rotherham = 248,175 Average attendance = 3,421 Population of Sheffield = 513,234 Average attendance of SW = 21,542 Average attendance of SU = 26,023 Population of (Greater) Norwich = 223,200 Average attendance = 24,543

[quote user="West_London_Canary"][quote user="tom cavendish"][quote user="West_London_Canary"][quote user="tom cavendish"][quote user="Buckethead"][quote user="tom cavendish"] Places such as King''s Lynn are not very local (because it''s over an hour away from Norwich) and closer to Peterborough who now have a Championship club and Boston Utd who were a league club not so long ago.  [/quote] Tom earlier in this thread when it suited your argument you ''claimed'' Kings Lynn for its speedway and now you say it''s ''not very local''. This is exactly why posters are accusing you of wheeling and spinning the facts and stats to suit. [/quote] I was discussing the areas as given by the poster who compared Bristol with the whole of Norfolk. King''s Lynn isn''t very local to Norwich IMHO as it is over an hour away. [/quote] Of couse it is, if you live in Kings Lyn who are you most likely to support? [/quote] King''s Lynn FC. Population of King''s Lynn = 34,564. Average attendance = 986. Peterborough Utd are the nearest football league club to King''s Lynn and PUFC will be playing in the Championship next season. [/quote] Up untill recently Peterborough United have been playing most of their clubs entire history in the 3rd and 4th tier of English football, thus making Norwich the far more attractive and obvious choice for people who may be located between Norwich and Peterborugh, so with all do respect to them they have never been a threat to us in terms of battleing for supporters in the Norfolk and Suffolk region, surely that is obvious? As usual tom your argument is flawed, now give it it a rest aye? [/quote] The fact remains that King''s Lynn is nearer to Peterborough than Norwich and that as from next season PUFC will be playing in the Championship thus making them the more attractive option for ''potental'' support . Besides, King''s Lynn has it''s own football club that gets good local support considering the size of the place.

[quote user="West_London_Canary"][quote user="tom cavendish"][quote user="Buckethead"][quote user="tom cavendish"] Places such as King''s Lynn are not very local (because it''s over an hour away from Norwich) and closer to Peterborough who now have a Championship club and Boston Utd who were a league club not so long ago.  [/quote] Tom earlier in this thread when it suited your argument you ''claimed'' Kings Lynn for its speedway and now you say it''s ''not very local''. This is exactly why posters are accusing you of wheeling and spinning the facts and stats to suit. [/quote] I was discussing the areas as given by the poster who compared Bristol with the whole of Norfolk. King''s Lynn isn''t very local to Norwich IMHO as it is over an hour away. [/quote] Of couse it is, if you live in Kings Lyn who are you most likely to support? [/quote] King''s Lynn FC. Population of King''s Lynn = 34,564. Average attendance = 986. Peterborough Utd are the nearest football league club to King''s Lynn and PUFC will be playing in the Championship next season.

[quote user="tom cavendish"][quote user="West_London_Canary"] Out of interest, which councils have offered to buy their local club a brand spanking new stadium? I''m talking withing the last 10 years by the way. I find it very hard believe that the Norwich City Council would even consider forking out 20-30m to fund us a new stadium when we already have a Premiership quality stadium in great condition. [/quote] Hull, Dartford, Doncaster etc. Stoke got a lot of financial help from their council. The one at Aberdeen is to cost £40m. [/quote] Swansea stadium.

[quote user="West_London_Canary"] Out of interest, which councils have offered to buy their local club a brand spanking new stadium? I''m talking withing the last 10 years by the way. I find it very hard believe that the Norwich City Council would even consider forking out 20-30m to fund us a new stadium when we already have a Premiership quality stadium in great condition. [/quote] Hull, Dartford, Doncaster etc. Stoke got a lot of financial help from their council. The one at Aberdeen is to cost £40m.

[quote user="Buckethead"][quote user="tom cavendish"] Places such as King''s Lynn are not very local (because it''s over an hour away from Norwich) and closer to Peterborough who now have a Championship club and Boston Utd who were a league club not so long ago.  [/quote] Tom earlier in this thread when it suited your argument you ''claimed'' Kings Lynn for its speedway and now you say it''s ''not very local''. This is exactly why posters are accusing you of wheeling and spinning the facts and stats to suit. [/quote] I was discussing the areas as given by the poster who compared Bristol with the whole of Norfolk. King''s Lynn isn''t very local to Norwich IMHO as it is over an hour away.

[quote user="Largey"] We cannot afford a new stadium, we dont need a new stadium, we dont need a bigger stadium, the stadium we have fits the bill, is Premiership quality, and is in a decent location. Why oh why would we dream of selling the stadium?! [/quote] Norwich could afford a new stadium if the council provided it, and then the club could use the money from the sale of CR to clear the debts and spend millions on players.

[quote user="thebigfeller"][quote user="tom cavendish"][ I agree that they have select some bad managers - that''s my point, but also that the Board have done good things off the pitch. As for Dave Stringer being out of the game, if they had gone to someone still in the game then that person is more likely to have vested interests. Who would you suggest helps the Board find a good manager? [/quote] All sorts of contacts throughout the football world. Meanwhile, the business of choosing a new manager isn''t rocket science! At present, the candidates they should be considering are plainly: Adrian Boothroyd Paul Ince Ian Holloway Steve Tilson Jim Gannon Mark Robins That''s all based on simple common sense: the best people out there who''ve either already succeeded at this level or worked wonders in desperately difficult circumstances, and may be interested in the job. Beyond that, it becomes a question of looking at their overall records, taking soundings from contacts on what each candidate brings to the table, interviewing them (but being more interested in their records than if they''re polite and gentlemanly), and entering into negotiations over transfer budgets and coaching staff. It does not become a question of who represents the cheapest option, or who is least likely to rock the boat. Incidentally, each time we begin a search for a manager, Neil Doncaster compiles a shortlist and presents it to the board. He is clearly not qualified to do this, and I dread to think who he may have ruled out in the past. He was part of a palpably failed process, so should play no part in the next one: preferably by leaving the club ASAP. [/quote] I don''t disagree with you on the managerial front (I just give some credit to the Board for doing others things well), but with Ian Holloway, Norwich would be in for a huge turnover of unknown players and very bizarre tactics such as playing central defenders on the wing. I would only go for him if he had Gerry Francis helping him out and Gerry has been coaching at Stoke to help keep them in the Premiership.  

[quote user="Mr.Carrow"]     "Norwich Council population 121,550 Bristol Council population 380,615 Greater Norwich population 223,200 Greater Bristol population 522,784 Norwich Travel to Work population 376,500 Bristol Travel to Work population 1,000,000 And yet NCFC now get as much home support as Bristol City + Bristol Rovers + Bristol Rugby Club added together and Carrow Rd is nearly full for most games showing that the Board have done a good job in attracting crowds and realising potential despite bad results on the pitch."   The most important figure you are deliberately ignoring is Norfolk and North Suffolk ONE MILLION PEOPLE.  I know how many thousands of tickets are sent out to these areas because i often have to handle them.  You either know very little about NCFC and its support or you are deliberately trying to mislead people.  [/quote] Places such as King''s Lynn are not very local (because it''s over an hour away from Norwich) and closer to Peterborough who now have a Championship club and Boston Utd who were a league club not so long ago. Soon you will be claiming the population of Hong Kong because a fan lives there. The travel to work area population is a good indicator if you want to make a like for like comparison.  

[quote user="thebigfeller"][quote user="tom cavendish"] The Board brought in Dave Stringer to help them, and most clubs make bad managerial appointments hence why managers get sacked so often. Most of the out of work managers have been sacked by someone in the past. On one hand you say off the pitch resources are vital, and the next you say the football is the priority. Well of course, and that is the case at NCFC. Clubs in the top 2 divisions have their hotels, restaurants, bars etc. etc. and we need them too to try and compete financially on the pitch. [/quote] Football is the priority, and off pitch resources are vital too. Good grief: why does it have to be an either/or? Meanwhile, there was plainly something very seriously wrong with a selection process which resulted in not one, not two, but three bizarre managerial appointments one after another: choices which were plainly bizarre at the time, and not merely in hindsight. While I love all that Dave Stringer''s done for the club, he''s been out of football for 17 years now for heavens'' sake - so did the club look at the process, and the quality of advice it took along the way? Nope. Instead, it simply concluded Grant and Roeder hadn''t been "right for the football club". Wrong: it''s simply that they were plain bad managers. And in a desperate urge to find the exact opposite of those two men, turned instead to someone who "bleeds green and yellow", instead of looking for the best qualified man for the job. Again: putting community and being a ''Norwich man'' ahead of safeguarding our footballing status. The board want people who ''do Norfolk''? They sure as heck don''t. [/quote] I agree that they have select some bad managers - that''s my point, but also that the Board have done good things off the pitch. As for Dave Stringer being out of the game, if they had gone to someone still in the game then that person is more likely to have vested interests. Who would you suggest helps the Board find a good manager?

[quote user="Mr.Carrow"] It`s called being responsible for your actions tom.  As i have said, i have a reasonable sum invested in shares, i make no interest, if i lose the lot i`ll take it on the chin just as i would if i invested in shares in a football club- i certainly wouldn`t expect support and blind loyalty for screwing up something which means so much to so many people. [/quote] I will ask again - Delia did not take any interest on the money she had loaned to the club. She later converted her loans to shares. Would you rather the club had paid her interest on her loans and that she had not converted her loans to shares?

[quote user="thebigfeller"][quote user="tom cavendish"] And not doubt some would soon be moaning if the club has less money to spend on players because it didn''t have the off-field biz that other clubs had. [/quote] Off-field biz and the resources it brings in is important and vital. But what''s the club''s first priority, Tom? It clearly isn''t football - otherwise the board would''ve brought people onto it who actually know the game, wouldn''t have made a succession of ridiculous managerial appointments, and certainly wouldn''t be considering entrusting the fortunes of the team to a complete novice partly implicated in our relegation. Football comes first. It''s that simple. [/quote] The Board brought in Dave Stringer to help them, and most clubs make bad managerial appointments hence why managers get sacked so often. Most of the out of work managers have been sacked by someone in the past. On one hand you say off the pitch resources are vital, and the next you say the football is the priority. Well of course, and that is the case at NCFC. Clubs in the top 2 divisions have their hotels, restaurants, bars etc. etc. and we need them too to try and compete financially on the pitch.

[quote user="Mr.Carrow"][quote user="tom cavendish"][quote user="Desert Fox"] YC, Really? How about the fact that the claims of Tom are incoveniently and laughably untrue. [/quote] If you do not believe the census data then the population of the ''travel to work area'' is a fair like for  like indicator of the local population for a football club. For Norwich it is 376,500. For Bristol it is 1 million. Norwich City attract more home fans than those that attend Bristol City + Bristol Rovers + Bristol Rugby Club matches. So considering the Norwich travel to work area has a population almost a 3rd of that of Bristol, Norwich City do very well to attract such good crowds. When Delia and Co took over the NCFC crowds were only about 14,500 on average and they were 10,000 up on that last season even though the club has struggled on the pitch for a few years in a row. Surely the Board deserve some credit for increasing the crowds? [/quote] Once again you are twisting things to suit your argument.  The travel to work figure for Norwich from the link you provided only covers an area roughly 15 mile radius of the City centre.  If the good folk of Yarmouth, Lowestoft, Cromer etc. fancy a footy match where do you think they go?  Holland?!  The fact is our fans come from all over the Eastern region (just as they do for our top 10 retail centre), but in the main from Norfolk and North Suffolk which combined has a population of over 1 million- the same as Avon but without the competition from other professional clubs/sports.  I honestly think that at the start of this thread you were unaware of these facts, but it would be far more graceful if you simply accepted you got it wrong. [/quote] Norwich Council population 121,550 Bristol Council population 380,615 Greater Norwich population 223,200 Greater Bristol population 522,784 Norwich Travel to Work population 376,500 Bristol Travel to Work population 1,000,000 And yet NCFC now get as much home support as Bristol City + Bristol Rovers + Bristol Rugby Club added together and Carrow Rd is nearly full for most games showing that the Board have done a good job in attracting crowds and realising potential despite bad results on the pitch.

[quote user="Neil Cluckcaster"] If you want to destroy totally what little is left of NCFC pre-Delia Smith.... go ahead. More modernist bilge with no regard for history. [/quote] With an attitude like that the club would still be playing at The Nest.

[quote user="gazzathegreat"]Tom, your reply to Lincs CR. Think about our level of debt before we built the new South Stand and now? The infills, and now. Even a brand new club shop and ticket office. Added on the additional area onto the Barclay. The debt before all this was higher or lower? Again who is going to pay for all of this and most of all. Will the standard of football be any better? Will we pay off the debts? Will we sign better players. The board have improved the ground since they came in. So, are your questions answered?[/quote] A new stadium could clear the debts because the Carrow Rd land is worth a lot of money and land would be a much cheaper on the outskirts of the city - even free if it is council owned land. Much of the Jarrold stand and other parts of the stadium such as seats and desso pitch could prob'' be moved to a new site to save money. Get the council to build a  new stadium for the club for free or be a part owner and the club would make a lot of money and have a much better stadium. I don''t know if this is still the case, but to give you an example of local council funding, NCC used to subsidise the Waterfront to the tune of 500K per year and it is run by the UEA.