Galloway, Farage and the two party system

[Fen Canary 829]

6 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

I know everybody thinks Reform attracts those on the right - but in all honesty it's siren call is simply anti-immigrant or anybody 'other'. Its economic plans (think shrink if not remove the welfare state, deregulate, Thatcher on steroids) is generally not understood. Hence a significant number of its lazy 'supporters' are equally from the left - 30p Lee is actually quite a good example.

Brexit only occurred because like Galloway it was sold in two different ways to two mutually opposing groups or ideologies.

The ERG 'free marketers' wanted  Brexit to simply allow us to become more dynamic and like the US. Immigration was just the bait. Truss in her short tenure to make Brexit a success wanted more immigration - not protectionism (laugh at the farmers vs her Oz and NZ trade deals)! You could add in the fishermen too.

The Protectionists (generally what's still called the 'working class') wanted Brexit to stop competition from abroad be that in goods or people.

No wonder Brexit is a mess. It's inherently flawed  - the worst of all worlds. Either get on turning us into a version of the USA (privatise the NHS, deregulate, rip up the welfare state or only a safety net at a much lower level) or stick with the European welfare model but rejoin the SM/CU. There isn't a stable other way. 

The beauty of Brexit though (for the leave vote) was that it opens up the possibilities for either of those things to come to pass. Once you’re out of the bloc then all sides can go back to squabbling in domestic politics to try and enact the future they want to see. Farage can go back to campaigning for his Thatcherite globalism, and the likes of myself could start voting for parties who promised nationalisation of utilities and protectionism from the globalist forces (if one existed). It made Westminster king of the direction we chose to take.

Let’s not derail this into a Brexit thread though, there’s already one of those and it seems to drag on ad nauseam

Edited March 15 by Fen Canary

[lake district canary 4,533]

11 hours ago, dylanisabaddog said:

I heard a man on the radio say that Reform stood for something that everyone wants. He was very insistent about it and refused to listen to anyone suggesting otherwise. He simply couldn't believe that anyone could disagree with him. 

I can understand how he feels. I can't believe that anyone in their right mind would vote for Labour or Conservative again.  

The reason I started this thread was to ask if  a Workers Party, which would be big on reform on the left - or the Reform Party itself - can offer an alternative. I believe they can.  

Galloway has a lot more about him than some are giving him credit for and his Party is sure - imo - to get a lot bigger in the lead up to the next election. Farage too with the Reform Party. 

For them to make enough of a difference though, people would need to give up on thinking just either Labour or Conservative.....

[Well b back 3,209]

57 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

I can understand how he feels. I can't believe that anyone in their right mind would vote for Labour or Conservative again.  

The reason I started this thread was to ask if  a Workers Party, which would be big on reform on the left - or the Reform Party itself - can offer an alternative. I believe they can.  

Galloway has a lot more about him than some are giving him credit for and his Party is sure - imo - to get a lot bigger in the lead up to the next election. Farage too with the Reform Party. 

For them to make enough of a difference though, people would need to give up on thinking just either Labour or Conservative.....

I think you really are serious that you want the country run by these extremists. 

[Well b back 3,209]

Do you really support Galloway’s views ?

He supports Putin and says Russia have committed no war crimes

He supports the Chinese in their Urghur genocide

He thinks having sex with a sleeping woman is bad manners not rape

He gives a platform to many sex offenders

He is antisemetic 

After seeing the Israel Gaza thread taken down, in view of what Galloway stands for, I can’t believe this is not being removed.

 

[lake district canary 4,533]

20 minutes ago, Well b back said:

I think you really are serious that you want the country run by these extremists. 

I never said that. I want change. The two party politics no longer works - it hasn't been working for years, but it must be totally clear to anyone watching politics that neither party can run the country - all Labour and Conservatives do is spend the time fighting amongst themselves.   

If change means the likes of Farage and Galloway making inroads and leading to proportional representation, which is what is needed so we can have proper representation of ALL views, then it may be worth it.  In a proportional system, extreme views would still be at the edge of politics, the Green Party would have a decent voice and politicians would have to work together. 

 

[lake district canary 4,533]

10 minutes ago, Well b back said:

Do you really support Galloway’s views ?

He supports Putin and says Russia have committed no war crimes

He supports the Chinese in their Urghur genocide

He thinks having sex with a sleeping woman is bad manners not rape

He gives a platform to many sex offenders

He is antisemetic 

After seeing the Israel Gaza thread taken down, in view of what Galloway stands for, I can’t believe this is not being removed.

 

I don't agree with a lot of what he says, he takes things too far a lot of the time - but he does talk some sense about some things - the dire state of the two party system for one - but he has just won a democratic mandate with a huge swing away from Tory and Labour - and imo that cannot be ignored.

 

[Well b back 3,209]

Gosh, let’s hope their views are not taken up maybe. 
Release the rapists, beat up the RNLI volunteers, support Putin, let those in forced marriages be beaten up by their husbands. 
Do you think you can support some of their views and ignore the others.

Had what happened in Rochdale not happened, Galloway would have got nowhere near the seat.

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

10 hours ago, lake district canary said:

I never said that. I want change. The two party politics no longer works - it hasn't been working for years, but it must be totally clear to anyone watching politics that neither party can run the country - all Labour and Conservatives do is spend the time fighting amongst themselves.   

If change means the likes of Farage and Galloway making inroads and leading to proportional representation, which is what is needed so we can have proper representation of ALL views, then it may be worth it.  In a proportional system, extreme views would still be at the edge of politics, the Green Party would have a decent voice and politicians would have to work together. 

 

You are not wrong with what you say but I really do wonder if PR will make a significant difference to the democratic system. I offer two pieces of evidence.  Firstly, can we provide examples of countries with PR systems that run significantly better than our system in terms of competence, accountability and corruption, to name just 3 factors?? And are there countries using a PR system that are just as bad or worse than us at governing?

Secondly, I think you are quite right in pointing out the infighting within parties is a big distraction from the process of governing and a PR system allows the extremes to peel away and form their own parties without losing the chance of being in power. This has to be a good thing in theory. In practice however, those smaller parties will still join a government coalition  and the infighting will still continue albeit as a separate party in a coalition and not a wing of a major party.  Won't we end up pretty much where we are now?

[Fen Canary 829]

7 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

You are not wrong with what you say but I really do wonder if PR will make a significant difference to the democratic system. I offer two pieces of evidence.  Firstly, can we provide examples of countries with PR systems that run significantly better than our system in terms of competence, accountability and corruption, to name just 3 factors?? And are there countries using a PR system that are just as bad or worse than us at governing?

Secondly, I think you are quite right in pointing out the infighting within parties is a big distraction from the process of governing and a PR system allows the extremes to peel away and form their own parties without losing the chance of being in power. This has to be a good thing in theory. In practice however, those smaller parties will still join a government coalition  and the infighting will still continue albeit as a separate party in a coalition and not a wing of a major party.  Won't we end up pretty much where we are now?

What you’re saying is true, but at least in the PR system you know exactly how much support each faction has. Currently we don’t know if the Corbynite lefts or Braverman rights are simply loony wings of their parties, or whether they actually enjoy wider support outside Westminster and are being shut out by the centrist career MPs of both major parties who are essentially the same bloc. In PR these fringes can break away, and if they receive 2% we know they’re simply a loony fringe, however if they start polling level with the original party then we know there’s much more support for their ideas than previously thought. It simply opens up the system in my opinion, even if it would likely still be dominated by the traditional major parties 

[A Load of Squit 5,170]

On 15/03/2024 at 18:13, Fen Canary said:

He didn’t need to win a seat in order for UKIP to achieve its goal though. The threat of splitting the vote and costing the Tories their future majority was enough to put pressure on Cameron to call the referendum in an attempt to put the matter to bed 

All they've done since the referendum is **** about not getting what they wanted.

[Fen Canary 829]

13 minutes ago, A Load of Squit said:

All they've done since the referendum is **** about not getting what they wanted.

They were a single issue party, once that was achieved they lost all purpose and without Farage their only recognised face.