Twenty-minute neighbourhoods and 15-minute cities

[sonyc 5,541]

2 hours ago, Herman said:

Hertford lost most of its decent shops over the years and stopped having a good reason to visit. Then more bars and eating places started moving in which helped bring back a bit of the vibrancy. Then covid and its aftermath which could take it back to a ghost town. 

It's grim and it's hard out there, I'm not sure what the answer is but there needs to be some serious discussions on how town centres can move forward. 

I have been shocked by a few places in recent years. Barnsley is sad (the people are great though). Bradford is becoming devoid of shops (admittedly it has always been in the shadow of Leeds), though still quite an interesting city centre architecturally. I would not recommend anyone coming and I'm a true adopted Bradfordian (the people are salts of the earth). Rochdale is yet another example. 

My idea years ago was to make a city centre a place for market stalls (in every street with market traders)...along with music, arts etc - almost like a 5 day festival and a theme each month.

There has to be reason that is about an experience because shops on their own cannot compete with the internet. I would also have wellbeing and health centres which of course would be well staffed and by necessity those would bring in customers. I would also go mad on greenery. Literally green every part of a city as I could.

Car less cities are being trialled too (France I think and Spain) and people are encouraged to bring families (lost the link but will look).

Edited March 17, 2023 by sonyc
Edited grammar

[Yellow Fever 3,818]

11 minutes ago, Herman said:

Hertford lost most of its decent shops over the years and stopped having a good reason to visit. Then more bars and eating places started moving in which helped bring back a bit of the vibrancy. Then covid and its aftermath which could take it back to a ghost town. 

It's grim and it's hard out there, I'm not sure what the answer is but there needs to be some serious discussions on how town centres can move forward. 

Yes Herman. That's my argument. All well and good trying to remove traffic but not at the expense of removing all and any of the reasons most people want to visit in the first place!

Cambridge is really a town - the centre dominated by the University, students and tourists. Most of the business is out on the parks! Both I visit but can't say I'm bothered about the centre any more (last time there was about 5 or 6 years ago on a punt). Best avoided. Rubbish shopping centre too. 

For Norwich and most cities we need to be more 'practical'. John Lewis (Bonds) I suspect is only successful because it has it's own reasonably accessible still car park! However I 'm sure the JL board has wondered about the value of the whole site!

 

[Barbe bleu 832]

6 hours ago, Herman said:

Worrying news about the John Lewis Partnership. If that goes the town will be as good as dead.

I've not seen that.  Agree though that without John Lewis the town won't really have any purpose other than being 'London, beyond london'- Something that Ebenezer the geezer would be mortified at

[mattyboy 1]

On 08/03/2023 at 11:38, Yellow Fever said:

Yes agreed. I threw up Tokyo / Yokohama as a mega-city I know well. Basically very very rarely drive as excellent rail everywhere (even for seaside weekend days out to Kamakura and the like). I've always loved the little trains towards Hakone.

However - in most places a vehicle is essential in the modern world simply for practicality let alone convenience unless you want to be 'trapped' in your neighbourhood let alone have visitors / guests. Perhaps we can let the protagonists of this out for a day trip once or twice a year to Margate or Blackpool. Run special trains aka 1920s.

Eventually - hopefully on-demand cheap driverless taxis will make all of this ancient history. 

 

 

Maybe you know some people actually enjoy driving?

[mattyboy 1]

On 10/03/2023 at 13:27, Herman said:

As you and others have rightly pointed out you can't force people out of their cars without providing a viable alternative. We all want cleaner air, safer neighbourhoods etc and I applaud some for trying to tackle this issue, but there needs to be more carrot, less stick, for these plans to become popular and doable. 

Haven;t we achieved cleaner air over the last fifty odd years? 

Electric cars are not the right way forward, in my opinion. Asa petrolhead, I would perhaps say that, but they are certainly not perfect by any stretch of the imagination when it comes to sustainablility or recycling.

I am in favour of trying to create neighbourhoods where going to the shops, school, etc is within easy walking distance - it just seems more convenient and a nice thing to have. But in no way should councils be penalising people. If councils actually encouraged rather than dscouraged local producers and services,  eg: by not charging sky-high business rates to local shopkeepers, then they wouldn't feel they had to introduce hare-brained schemes designed to get people out of their car when they have no other real option.

[mattyboy 1]

On 10/03/2023 at 14:22, Yellow Fever said:

I actually think that in non-metropolitan cities like Norwich the councils have forgotten why the city exists at all - as a place to meet and trade and do business for those in the county. Making it more difficult (and lets be frank being unduly anti-car) for most to access (by car a practical necessity) simply drives (pun) business out of the city to more convenient locations. I suspect today most people do not commute radially in/out of the city centre but tangentially (hence the problem of providing public transport) - Marsh being the latest large employer to up sticks and move out.  Norwich's 'native' inner city population is just not big enough to support its economy on its own!

Broadland, Longwater,  Taverham, Hall road etc.

If they are not careful then they'll end up with a smaller tourist/student centre only that most locals don't ever visit! The 15 minute city won't include the city centre and their whole scheme will be self defeating or worse!

City centres are meant to be noisy. vibrant places full of life, (and this includes drivers being able to access the city centre - not all shopping involves buying light easy tio handle goods, after all). 

Plus it is far easier to provide a useful public transport system when most key attractions an area has to provide to its residents and others, are spaced within fairly close vicinity to each other

[mattyboy 1]

On 17/03/2023 at 10:40, Herman said:

Hertford lost most of its decent shops over the years and stopped having a good reason to visit. Then more bars and eating places started moving in which helped bring back a bit of the vibrancy. Then covid and its aftermath which could take it back to a ghost town. 

It's grim and it's hard out there, I'm not sure what the answer is but there needs to be some serious discussions on how town centres can move forward. 

I'd say that councils should try and make them a more vibrant place and attractive for people to visit. Which means the opposite of anti-car policies, whilst at the same time investing in public-transport facilities, allowing people to either cannot or would rather not drive into city and large town centres.to do so as conveniently as possible.

Instead, lots of councils seem to assume that people have driven the decline in town and city-centres by home shopping, working from home, etc. Rather than thinking this decline in use may quite substantially have been caused by their own policies making them less attractive places to visit or do business in. Of course, national government has hardly helped more recently by instiolling fear in vast swarthes of the population over a long time period, over a virus where the average age of deaths has been in line with the avearge death rate of the UK as a whole. But that is another story.

Edited March 19, 2023 by mattyboy

[Yellow Fever 3,818]

41 minutes ago, mattyboy said:

City centres are meant to be noisy. vibrant places full of life, (and this includes drivers being able to access the city centre - not all shopping involves buying light easy tio handle goods, after all). 

Plus it is far easier to provide a useful public transport system when most key attractions an area has to provide to its residents and others, are spaced within fairly close vicinity to each other

Quite agree. Norwich did have it about right - the 'lanes' and Gentleman's walk being car free but generally good access.

Then they started going too far  - no reason to close Exchange St let alone Charing cross. All Saints Green I suspect has achieved little and St. Stephens / Castle Meadow and Theatre Street seem particularly pointless and decaying. What shops are on those roads now that you'd want to go out of your way to visit?

 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

This is a link to the population thread as well. We have lost our identity of England. Neighbourhood shopping precincts are dead. No choice anymore. Just make them shop where we tell the.m.