Just when you thought things couldn’t get worse

[TheGunnShow 5,985]

Just now, SwearyCanary said:

So why not use that depth to put our foot on the throat of a France team that clearly struggled with being attacked? I know why, because of Gareth Southgate’s lack of faith in our depth at an attacking level 

Nope, the problem with England was the central spine. Stones and Maguire made some sense as a partnership as they've played together a fair bit so know each other's game well but long-term it's not ideal. At the same time, Stones is not quite elite. Maguire definitely isn't. I don't think either of them would get in France's best pair (although Stones would replace Otamendi for Argentina). Pickford doesn't get past Lloris at all.

If England had pushed with a more attacking midfield, they probably would have been absolutely trashed on the counter, as in think 0-4 by Hungary trashed on the counter. France's counter-attacking through Griezmann caused enough problems as it was. Opening up and trying to attack openly was suicide. The strong second-half performance showed England were close.

[kirku 1,334]

2 minutes ago, SwearyCanary said:

Gareth Southgate doesn’t get our squad near them either, if only our squad was as good as Tunisia he might have a chance 

Come on, we were having a reasonable debate. You're surely better than this.

France's 1.5 XI got to the final and lost on pens. Once you accept that you'll realise that England don't have a deep squad, especially not in key positions, and even if they did, it's not particularly a strength when they lack any truly elite players. 

[canarydan23 4,060]

6 minutes ago, kirku said:

Your overriding point of this discussion has been how England (read, Southgate) has failed to beat other major nations.

How does the "key point" that you think a "left behind" XI beats those teams quoted have any impact on that goal?

(BTW, Senegal were missing Mane..)

My point was that we have enviable depth. I've demonstrated that. You've rejected it because it doesn't fit your narrative and that's fine, but it remains the case.

[kirku 1,334]

2 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Nope, the problem with England was the central spine. Stones and Maguire made some sense as a partnership as they've played together a fair bit so know each other's game well but long-term it's not ideal. At the same time, Stones is not quite elite. Maguire definitely isn't. I don't think either of them would get in France's best pair (although Stones would replace Otamendi for Argentina). 

Maguire wouldn't get in France's squad, let alone XI.

Would Stones make their squad? If Kimpembe were fit? Not sure

[TheGunnShow 5,985]

It's nowhere near as enviable as France's, amply demonstrated by the fact that their top scorer of all time was now only their second striker, and that the sub left-back and sub defensive midfielder made the Opta Team of the World Cup. 

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

1 minute ago, TheGunnShow said:

Nope, the problem with England was the central spine. Stones and Maguire made some sense as a partnership as they've played together a fair bit so know each other's game well but long-term it's not ideal. At the same time, Stones is not quite elite. Maguire definitely isn't. I don't think either of them would get in France's best pair (although Stones would replace Otamendi for Argentina). Pickford doesn't get past Lloris at all.

If England had pushed with a more attacking midfield, they probably would have been absolutely trashed on the counter, as in think 0-4 by Hungary trashed on the counter. France's counter-attacking through Griezmann caused enough problems as it was. Opening up and trying to attack openly was suicide. The strong second-half performance showed England were close.

Respectfully I disagree, but I guess we will never really know. I saw how Argentina tore France apart and felt we could have done the same. The difference being we had Walker on mbappe to nullify and should’ve  utilised Rice as a man to man on Griezzman. 
we will never know though tbf and I doubt the spectacle the final was would’ve been what it was had we been in it. 

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

3 minutes ago, kirku said:

Come on, we were having a reasonable debate. You're surely better than this.

France's 1.5 XI got to the final and lost on pens. Once you accept that you'll realise that England don't have a deep squad, especially not in key positions, and even if they did, it's not particularly a strength when they lack any truly elite players. 

I guess we will have to see. What measure are you going by with Southgate at the Euros? 

[kirku 1,334]

1 minute ago, canarydan23 said:

My point was that we have enviable depth. I've demonstrated that. You've rejected it because it doesn't fit your narrative and that's fine, but it remains the case.

I'm sorry, but Henderson, Smalling, Ward-Prowse,  Bowen, Smith-Rowe, Eze, and Toney is not "enviable" depth.

Let's park that disagreement for now and pretend that it is what you say it is - how does it help us beat the likes of France and Italy?

[TheGunnShow 5,985]

2 minutes ago, SwearyCanary said:

Respectfully I disagree, but I guess we will never really know. I saw how Argentina tore France apart and felt we could have done the same. The difference being we had Walker on mbappe to nullify and should’ve  utilised Rice as a man to man on Griezzman. 
we will never know though tbf and I doubt the spectacle the final was would’ve been what it was had we been in it. 

That's fair enough, I would say there's plenty of evidence in England's relatively recent results to indicate too much vulnerability on the counter-attack - the defeats to Hungary, the 3-3 draw against Germany which really should have been a win (all in the Nations League), the 5-3 win against Kosovo.

You really don't want that against a speedster like Mbappe and a talent like Griezmann.

Not to mention, France were hit by a virus before the final. We'll never know how badly they were hit.

Edited December 19, 2022 by TheGunnShow

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

2 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

It's nowhere near as enviable as France's, amply demonstrated by the fact that their top scorer of all time was now only their second striker, and that the sub left-back and sub defensive midfielder made the Opta Team of the World Cup. 

Were suggesting statistics not considered a bad measure? Basing previous posts about our rankings vs others plus bookies odds which utilise stats 

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

3 minutes ago, kirku said:

I'm sorry, but Henderson, Smalling, Ward-Prowse,  Bowen, Smith-Rowe, Eze, and Toney is not "enviable" depth.

Let's park that disagreement for now and pretend that it is what you say it is - how does it help us beat the likes of France and Italy?

Italy didn’t qualify for the World Cup. Is that not evidence enough that they are consistently beatable

[kirku 1,334]

4 minutes ago, SwearyCanary said:

I guess we will have to see. What measure are you going by with Southgate at the Euros? 

Too far away to make a call, as I said earlier, " International football is cyclical and hugely dependent on form, injuries, and truly elite players."

Will Bellingham or Foden become "truly elite" in that timeframe? Will England's spine improve? What's the form and fitness of key players going into the tournament? 

Far too early to say

[TheGunnShow 5,985]

2 minutes ago, SwearyCanary said:

Were suggesting statistics not considered a bad measure? Basing previous posts about our rankings vs others plus bookies odds which utilise stats 

Nah, FIFA Rankings came up, which are rough at best. Ranking ever-changing structures such as football teams is never really going to be that satisfactory simply as so damn much can change - especially in a sport as popular as football.

And as I go to check the BBC website, I find Coman and Tchouameni have now been victims of online abuse. Just like Saka, Rashford and such were. *bleep*.

[canarydan23 4,060]

8 minutes ago, kirku said:

I'm sorry, but Henderson, Smalling, Ward-Prowse,  Bowen, Smith-Rowe, Eze, and Toney is not "enviable" depth.

Let's park that disagreement for now and pretend that it is what you say it is - how does it help us beat the likes of France and Italy?

It doesn't. 

Not having Southgate in charge of the vast talent pool we have does.

[TheGunnShow 5,985]

32 minutes ago, kirku said:

It was a 2nd XI - I didn't claim it was a "left behind" team.

It does highlight what true depth looks like though:

Varane and Upamecano (I think) are 1st choice ahead of Kounde and Kimpembe. They also have Saliba, Konate, both Hernandezs, and Pavard. All can play CB.

 

Yep, France's depth of quality centre-halves is something else entirely. And you've missed Wesley Fofana as a potential case.

Edited December 19, 2022 by TheGunnShow

[kirku 1,334]

6 minutes ago, SwearyCanary said:

Italy didn’t qualify for the World Cup. Is that not evidence enough that they are consistently beatable

I used them as an example because of the last two tournaments.

Edited December 19, 2022 by kirku

[kirku 1,334]

Just now, TheGunnShow said:

Yep, France's depth of quality centre-halves is something else entirely. And you've missed Wesley Fofana.

Ridiculous!

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

Just now, kirku said:

Too far away to make a call, as I said earlier, " International football is cyclical and hugely dependent on form, injuries, and truly elite players."

Will Bellingham or Foden become "truly elite" in that timeframe? Will England's spine improve? What's the form and fitness of key players going into the tournament? 

Far too early to say

I guess that’s fair. I’d suggest Bellingham has proved he is elite level this tournament, as has Saka. Foden will have to be utilised correctly, but my issue is that I don’t see him being by GS. I’m not talking Messi, Mbappe, Modric or Ronaldo (yuk) elite. But with three of these 4 dropping off the age cliff this only leaves mbappe. There is a whole lot of elite we have below this pedestal and one man on it. Despite him being outstanding he cannot win it single handedly. Probably 😂

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

4 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Nah, FIFA Rankings came up, which are rough at best. Ranking ever-changing structures such as football teams is never really going to be that satisfactory simply as so damn much can change - especially in a sport as popular as football.

And as I go to check the BBC website, I find Coman and Tchouameni have now been victims of online abuse. Just like Saka, Rashford and such were. *bleep*.

The abuse is just mental. Compare to the support Kane got with his miss. 

[kirku 1,334]

2 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

It doesn't. 

Not having Southgate in charge of the vast talent pool we have does.

OK, so Gareth Southgate is the only blocker to Chris Smalling and Jarrod Bowen contributing to a victorious England world cup campaign? Makes perfect sense.

Deschamps must be incredulous that Southgate ignores such generational talent.

[TheGunnShow 5,985]

Just now, kirku said:

Ridiculous!

Whereas with England it's Stones (not elite, but easily England's best centre-half), Maguire (not international class), Tomori (looked good at Milan, worth putting alongside Stones now), Coady (not international class) then what the heck? Tarkovski?

England have great depth in attacking midfield and they look pretty well-stocked at right-back. If Chilwell and Justin come back after bad injuries to old form, there's decent depth on the left too. 

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

4 minutes ago, kirku said:

I used them as an example because of the last two tournaments.

But if it’s all cyclical then it’s irrelevant as a point to say ‘how do we beat…’ they may not be the teams with the quality we are required to beat

[TheGunnShow 5,985]

1 minute ago, SwearyCanary said:

The abuse is just mental. Compare to the support Kane got with his miss. 

Racism. Simple as that.

[canarydan23 4,060]

Just now, kirku said:

OK, so Gareth Southgate is the only blocker to Chris Smalling and Jarrod Bowen contributing to a victorious England world cup campaign? Makes perfect sense.

Deschamps must be incredulous that Southgate ignores such generational talent.

Blimey. I hope you're being deliberately moronic there. Otherwise, come back when you can tie your shoelaces.

[TheGunnShow 5,985]

3 minutes ago, SwearyCanary said:

I guess that’s fair. I’d suggest Bellingham has proved he is elite level this tournament, as has Saka. Foden will have to be utilised correctly, but my issue is that I don’t see him being by GS. I’m not talking Messi, Mbappe, Modric or Ronaldo (yuk) elite. But with three of these 4 dropping off the age cliff this only leaves mbappe. There is a whole lot of elite we have below this pedestal and one man on it. Despite him being outstanding he cannot win it single handedly. Probably 😂

I'd say re. the bit in bold that both have shown that - at their best - they're quite close. I wouldn't say they're consistently elite yet. Always remember Dele Alli in these cases.

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

Just now, TheGunnShow said:

I'd say re. the bit in bold that both have shown that - at their best - they're quite close. I wouldn't say they're consistently elite yet. Always remember Dele Alli in these cases.

True 

[kirku 1,334]

2 minutes ago, SwearyCanary said:

I guess that’s fair. I’d suggest Bellingham has proved he is elite level this tournament, as has Saka. Foden will have to be utilised correctly, but my issue is that I don’t see him being by GS. I’m not talking Messi, Mbappe, Modric or Ronaldo (yuk) elite. But with three of these 4 dropping off the age cliff this only leaves mbappe. There is a whole lot of elite we have below this pedestal and one man on it. Despite him being outstanding he cannot win it single handedly. Probably 😂

Bellingham has a long way to go yet. Rooney was probably the closest we've come and he was always just a bit short of the quality required at that truly elite level.

Mbappe nearly won it single-handedly for France just yesterday!

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

2 minutes ago, kirku said:

Bellingham has a long way to go yet. Rooney was probably the closest we've come and he was always just a bit short of the quality required at that truly elite level.

Mbappe nearly won it single-handedly for France just yesterday!

Nearly…. 

and Gascoigne surely? 

Edited December 19, 2022 by SwearyCanary

[TheGunnShow 5,985]

3 minutes ago, kirku said:

Bellingham has a long way to go yet. Rooney was probably the closest we've come and he was always just a bit short of the quality required at that truly elite level.

Mbappe nearly won it single-handedly for France just yesterday!

Think Kane is to be fair.

If England had the 2006 central defenders, so Rio Ferdinand, John Terry, Sol Campbell instead of the current crop, then I'd think it's a genuinely top-tier side. Until then England are gatekeepers for me.

EDIT: By gatekeeper I'm using boxing parlance - a gatekeeper is a fighter that's close to winning world titles but not quite there, but will reliably beat those who won't make it at all. England's sub-standard spine is what makes them so, IMO. It's also why that attacking talent can't be fully unleashed.

Edited December 19, 2022 by TheGunnShow

[kirku 1,334]

Just now, SwearyCanary said:

Nearly…. 

Watched his illness and injury ravaged 1.5 XI get dominated for 80mins and dragged them into ET from 2 goals down. Then scored the most pressurised penalty you can think of in ET and scores in the shootout. 

Phenomenal.

If he'd been born in Preston instead of Paris, things might've been quite different..