Centre Backs

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

16 minutes ago, chicken said:

Malky Mackay is a well loved figure, often lamented about for having been let go when promoted to the Premier League and held aloft as an all time great defender.. 

Getting rid of Malky was a huge mistake. He'd probably just had the best season of his career, had just won his first caps for Scotland, and was hugely popular with his team mates. 

And to top it off, after our immediate relegation he won two more promotions from the Championship at two different clubs while we were on a sharp decline, and played some Premier League football with Watford! 

[chicken 2,625]

2 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Getting rid of Malky was a huge mistake. He'd probably just had the best season of his career, had just won his first caps for Scotland, and was hugely popular with his team mates. 

And to top it off, after our immediate relegation he won two more promotions from the Championship at two different clubs while we were on a sharp decline, and played some Premier League football with Watford! 

You missed my point.

His value to the team wasn't summed up purely in his ability in terms of FIFA stats like pace and passing etc. You are right to say he at least appears to have been a good character in the changing room and as part of a very experience defence in terms of leadership and slotting together with Fleming and the other players mentioned.

He made 17 starts and 1 substitute appearance for West Ham before they moved him on at exactly the same point we had. He then was signed by Boothroyd at Watford, who knew him from Norwich, to add experience to a side full of youngsters. He made 43 appearances in Watford's Championship promotion season. Then 17 in the Premier League where he couldn't stop them from being relegated. Making one appearance after that from what I can see.

As a player, he was an old fashioned stopper. He was great in the air, and brilliant at nullifying physical strikers like Horsefield. Like I say, held in high esteem by many, but not actually the greatest individual defender we have had before or since. I actually feel Fleming was the better of the two. Had the better organising sense and was by far the better ball player. And yet he goes relatively unsung in comparison.

Anyway, back on topic. Zimmerman is far more reliable and consistent than Bassong, however, what you sometimes got out of Bassong was a player who on his day was capable of being a top half prem defender. However, that day came about twice a season, perhaps a couple of times more if you were lucky. And was balanced by the equal number of performances where he looked lucky to be kicking a ball in the Championship and League 1 teams may have passed up on him.

I do feel that Zimmerman is underrated by many. He's more of the stopper, like Malky was, and yet he's compared to someone fleeter of foot or perhaps a tad better with the ball at their feet. But, again, like Malky, he is that roll your sleeves up, no nonsense defender who will put his body on the line for the sake of the team. That dig in and physical presence we missed much of last season.

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,820]

20 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

You seriously going to put somebody who hasn't played for 2 years ahead of Zimmermann, who during that two years captained us to the Championship title and came 2nd to Pukki but ahead of Buendia in our fans player of the season award in the same season? During a season when Gibson played just 5 games? 

I can't help but feel that his both incredibly harsh on Zimmermann and giving praise to Gibson well before he has earned it. 

I mean, that may prove to be the case, but you know when fans write players off after 2 or 3 games? You are doing the polar opposite, which i can't help but feel is just as bad.

The reality is that Gibson is a bit of a risk, a bit of an unknown, a gamble which may pay off big time. That's why he's on loan (presumably with an option to buy) and not here on a 3 year deal. Farke said that Drmic was worth the gamble as well, that one didn't pay off. Before Drmic it was Krul, that one did. 

Ben Gibson has played 6 games in two years, and during that two years Zimmermann has captained a Premier League side, came 2nd in our POTS vote, and picked up a Championship winners medal! 

Initially, I'd go with Zimmermann and Godfrey for the reasons you state. Gibson has played very little football for the last two years and by all reports hasn't even trained much this calendar year as he was in total exile at Burnley.

But in the mid and long-term, Gibson will likely be the better option. His CV is better than Zimmermann's and let's not forget that he was in the senior England squad three years ago. He has more pedigree and they're almost exactly the same age (three days difference).

If Gibson gets back to the level he was at before his move to Burnley, and it may take a couple of months for him to get going, then the first choice partnership should be Godfrey and Gibson. Obviously there's still a chance that Godfrey is going to move on, at which point this discussion becomes pretty redundant as Zimmermann and Gibson will probably end up partnering each other.

Also, let's not forget that progressive coaches who like positive football and ball-playing centre-backs prefer a combination of a right-footed player and left-footed one. There's a decent article on The Athletic about it here: https://theathletic.com/2049395/2020/09/08/explained-left-foot-centre-back-ake-laporte/