Monty13

Half the problem is the binary question in the thread title being assumed to encapsulate everyone’s positions on Webber. Just because people think he’s made poor decisions does not immediately mean they are advocating him being sacked. Some people who don’t want him sacked seem incapable of admitting mistakes have been made though.

You maintain these players made us competitive at the level they were brought in at, I’m suggesting given the evidence they did not and have not. Now accepting that we can pick apart the reasons they didn’t/haven’t and how much was controllable, but that doesn’t change the result.

Don’t disagree at all really. I was always prepared to give Smith a chance and presumed he was offering some kind of continuity, but it’s proven a really poor decision. I’m very happy with Wagner, he’s not as close to Farke as some may believe IMO, especially in play style, but he and his tactics so far definitely ooze much more of the character and style we need. You’re not wrong on confidence, 100% it’s a massive factor. However I’d argue player confidence is guided by who goes in and out the doors as well as by previous results.

Yawn… the irony of you of all posters accusing others of creating strawmen, moving goalposts and ignoring others points.

Which they didn’t do, that’s my point. They weren’t successful if they failed that basic criteria you have now twice laid out yourself. I liked Kabak for instance, looked a half decent player there that if we owned you’d be semi enthused about the potential, but ultimately we paid a large loan fee for a guy who played 924 mins for us. He’s playing for a team in the Bundesliga yes, one that’s lost more than half their games and is shipping just under 2 goals a game, sounds about right. I’m not interested in scapegoats. I work in continuous improvement and I know who is responsible is ultimately irrelevant, it’s the why things didn’t work and what could be changed that matters. I’d like to have some confidence lessons have been learnt and we will see some improvement when it comes to how we spend, but given last summer to now I’m unconvinced.

Fulham have spent more than we could have too, but the main thing they’ve done over the last few years is keep hold of Mitrovic at all cost. They also appear to have been slowly moulding the squad to improve it over that time. I can’t get excited by Forrest, everything wrong with football finances epitomised there.

But you said this and this is where I feel we’re at odds. By the measure of the level they were signed to play and what they ultimately produced the last two windows have been failures. PL Normann - Failure Kabak - Failure Rashica - Failure Tzolis - Failure Gilmour - Failure Sargent - I love him and he’s proving his worth this season but last year - Failure Williams - good signing IMO Championship Hayden - Failure Ramsay - was pretty good but now gone Nunez - not lived up to early promise Sara - Shown flashes but can we really say he’s hit the ground running and what we needed? For what they were signed for, survival last year and promotion this year it’s unbelievably generous not to consider the last two summers incomings anything but a failure IMO.

Don’t disagree, grass isn’t always greener and any change is a gamble. Personally I don’t want revolution. However I think the current regime just needs to show (whether publicly or just in its actions) that lessons have been learnt. The Webber regime so far has neither been infallible or unsuccessful, what happens next though will probably define what the next few seasons look like.

From a playing squad perspective I’d say right now we are, or are looking like being no better than that first promotion season. I don’t think you can deny the improvement in infrastructure or of course the promotions. The point being if the playing squad is fundamentally arguably no stronger than that first promotion and finances are on a knife edge then it raises questions. I’m personally not suggesting throw out the team responsible for both the success and failures. I’m suggesting if we want to improve from this point we need to see evidence of the lessons being learnt you are suggesting. I think Wagner is the right choice personally, but regardless of league this summer is an absolutely crucial one.

Then we shouldn’t have been signing them, or at least so many that fit this criteria. There’s few players we have signed in the last few windows that didn’t meet this criteria, were injury prone, generally unproven or a mix. The last two seasons have had very specific goals, maintain premier league status and restore premier league status this season. If we weren’t signing players to do that what on Earth were we spending huge sums of money on both to buy and loan? Regardless there are a fair number of players performing in this league this season who have never played English football that prove you can. We saw evidence yesterday including a brand new CB from Sweden who looked completely untroubled by two of the leagues best strikers in his first game.

I’ll be honest, I expected us to lose yesterday’s game. Burnley are on fire and while we got two great results under Wagner so far it was clear there were still a lot of things wrong as that first half chaos against Coventry proved. I’ll be honest what surprised me was how quickly Carrow Road went from bouncing to getting on our players backs. Yes Krul’s error was unbelievably poor, but atmosphere after seemed tense to angry every time we had the ball in our back 3rd. I think in the long run that result won’t matter, you look at the next half dozen or so games and they’re all winnable including at home. That’s where Wagner needs to continue to get this team performing, yesterday was just too early for such a big challenge (I hope). It was pretty grounding, bringing us back down to Earth with an almighty bump. Fail to beat Hull though…

Yes, you have just described football fans, well done.

Not saying you are wrong but just to point out football managers are considered **** by the mob after far less time failing to achieve past highs. It’s a forum, people are asking questions and others are answering, helpful or not it’s obviously on people’s minds. I share your fears of what would come next if we throw the current leadership away, but the last 18 months have also been concerning and failure this year has the very real possibility of leaving us (bar the recent sporting achievements and infrastructure improvements) basically back where we started.

If we somehow managed to go up I’m not sure you could look at this team and argue it is stronger than that first promotion season. Webber shook this club up when he arrived, brought in Farke, brought in some great players like Emi and Pukki, has delivered 2 promotions and titles and overseen great developments in infrastructure for the long term. None of that’s deniable to me. It does feel like the last 18 months or so the wheels have come off the bus though. There’s been some really questionable use of the finances of those promotions and player sales, not to mention the Dean Smith era itself.

Thought Hanley was our best player to be honest. I’m not saying he organises the defence well, but dropping him given that seems a wild not brave decision to me.

Utterly outclassed by a much better side. They deserve to be where they are, we are a long way off their level.

We don’t even have 2.5 million, that’s one of the issues.

Any doubt of how far off the pace we still are is now over. Going to be a challenge to ensure we will be in the playoffs and can forget any dreams of automatics.

Injured unfortunately so wouldn’t be playing regardless

Unbelievably terrible decision.

I think we are at cross purposes. Ban 1000s of people singing it if the need is seen as justified, but changing the song seems pointless to me.

Or let art be art? I’m not sure why we feel the need to censor everything remotely thought provoking, controversial and uncomfortable. It’s not like the lyrics glorify the act, he’s regretting his actions and knows he will be punished.

I mean I imagine they are in jobs. There really isn’t enough Norwich supporters to sustain them I would have thought with just some sponsorship and YouTube adds. Not meant as an insult to them, I think it’s great they take their own time to do this. I don’t always agree with them but their content is good as fan channels go IMO.

Whole thing choked me up to be honest. I’ve got young kids, can’t imagine what that family has gone through. To see such a perfect public display of remembrance and support from players, fans and both clubs was deeply moving.

What is your obsession over this? Smith was clearly the wrong choice and that’s on Webber. He also didn’t rebuild the squad no, but he took the job likely knowing that wasn’t happening. He failed. Miserably. Wagner is proving it. Whether players didn’t buy into his system, fans didn’t like him or anything else is largely irrelevant to him not doing his job successfully as he had influence over anything you can name. He failed, move on and stop getting annoyed when people point out he did.