a1canary

[quote user="a1canary"][quote user="TIL 1010"][quote user="a1canary"] The way i see it, i think he probably does want out and decided that not turning up on Saturday would get the ball rolling (as advised by his agent no doubt). [/quote] Probably I am having a senior moment but have I missed something here ? [*-)] [/quote] As in he wasn''t at the Fulham game when most of the senior players who weren''t playing were watching the game. I know that''s reading something in to it but one thing you can be certain of is that Hoolahan/his agent would know full well that not being there would set tongues wagging. The fact that he reported a hitherto unknown injury on Friday doesn''t do a lot to disuade one from this theory! [/quote] ...also, unless he has broken his leg or something, why does he need to have treatment on an injury at 3pm on a Saturday - seems awfully convenient! No, he wants out, i''m pretty certain of that. But as i''ve said, we needn''t do anything, and in fact it might work in our favour. I think a lot of it has to do with the World Cup which he''s desperate to play in. If we hold on to him and then let him play after January, he''s going to have to play out of his skin to book his place.  

[quote user="TIL 1010"][quote user="a1canary"] The way i see it, i think he probably does want out and decided that not turning up on Saturday would get the ball rolling (as advised by his agent no doubt). [/quote] Probably I am having a senior moment but have I missed something here ? [*-)] [/quote] As in he wasn''t at the Fulham game when most of the senior players who weren''t playing were watching the game. I know that''s reading something in to it but one thing you can be certain of is that Hoolahan/his agent would know full well that not being there would set tongues wagging. The fact that he reported a hitherto unknown injury on Friday doesn''t do a lot to disuade one from this theory!

I am miserable Nutty. And Happy New Year to you! Hughton just makes me shake my head in resignation to so much of what he says. He only ever talks about goals conceded. If we lose one nil, he talks about the goal we conceded. Not the fact that yet again we have failed to SCORE or to outscore the opposition when they have very often only managed one goal against us (if we ''ignore'' the tankings!).  GOALS Chris, we need to score GOALS!!! When we''re not having an off day or getting a stuffing, our defence is reasonable.  Although i appreciate it''s hard to argue even that given our GD! But we should be able, sometimes at least, to score 2 goals to the opposition''s 1 goal and be happy about that rather than have this pathalogical obsession with not conceding. As a an approach, as a philosophy, it''s viable and shared by many a manager. But for Norwich City today, it''s not working. As for the Fulham game, are you suggesting Chris G and Eadie were wrong in their assessment that we were more 4-5-1 than 4-3-3? Or that we were standing off Fulham when they had the ball at the end of the game? What also frustrates me and makes me miserable is that i think we''re actually quite close to being a really competent premier league team but we just can''t seem to get there, to really kick on and progress. It''s almost as if something is holding the players back. I really recognise what Ricardo describes because i''ve seen it before. Good posession, crisp accurate passing, good pressure - "pretty" football as he describes it. We are more than capable of that and i''ve seen it with my own eyes. But we''re not scroing and we''re not winning. And that eats away at the confidence of the players. Sooner or later they will get fed up with it and start leaving and it''s no surprise that it''s the attacking players who are running out of (Hoolahan) or have already run out of (Holt, Morison) patience with our form and want to leave. This is why i''m miserable. And it''s miserable being miserable. I don''t want to be miserable. Make me not miserable!

The way i see it, i think he probably does want out and decided that not turning up on Saturday would get the ball rolling (as advised by his agent no doubt). Thing is, in January at least, the clubs hold the power, not the players. We can just sit tight and say no to any offers (think Celtic and Hooper) and the players can not realistically refuse to play in protest because if they are going to have to wait until the summer, they will need to keep playing and keep in form to ensure the move in the summer - they just have to knuckle down and demonstrat that they are good pros. Again, there are countless examples of this. We absolutely do NOT have to let him go and we should not unless we''re offered silly money. And certainly not to Villa - a direct rival. And certainly not to Lambert who we know McNally and much more Bowkett are the last people Lambert should be asking a favour from.

The one thing that concerns me is the way Hughton often says, "we did all we could to win, we put lots of crosses in the box" Which almost sounds as if he expects all that need be done is put crosses in and goals will happen. Only with us, they don''t. Usually because we haven''t got enough players in the box to take the chances. I keep hearing that we were 4-3-3 but Goreham and Eadie said it was much more a 4-5-1 than a 4-3-3 with the wide two in the forward three spending most of their time on the touchlines and the midfield three not far forward enough either to get on the end of those crosses. The commentary also said in the final 10 we were still standing off Fulham when out of posession. To me, that is not doing everything they can to win. That''s doing everything they can not to loose. There''s a subtle difference and at times, the latter is the better option, but it''s also CH all over and is the reason we still can''t score goals after a £13-14m investment in our strikeforce. That''s the bottom line. No goal return over and above last season after such an investment. And he has to carry the can for that damning statistic.

*to have a go...

[quote user="Bethnal Yellow and Green"][quote user="a1canary"] "will do" - future tense "has done" - past tense But since you ask, sacking Pardew who lead Southampton to the verge of the play offs after starting on -10 was pretty stupid. Pardew had a 53% win rating at Southampton, better than any of his other managerial roles. Appointing Adkins worked out but that was a gamble that paid off after Pardew had brought in the likes of Lambert, Fonte and Puncheon. I''m not saying they haven''t done well or that Cortese hasn''t done a good job - it is just my view that he looks like another chairman with a taste for gambles and knee jerk decisions so i''ll be interested to see what he does when things aren''t going so great for them. [/quote]   So you are basing your whole opinion on the age old idea of ''he looks like a wrong''un''?   Pardew was told he''d be gone if Southampton didn''t finish within 10 points of the automatic promotion spots or Norwich and Charlton (the other clubs relegated along with Southampton) as Southampton had spent more than double any team in the league on transfers and wages that season. Southampton finished 11 points behind Charlton and 22 points behind Norwich. [/quote] It''s a hunch, i agree. No need to have just for expressing that. It would take very very little at the moment for us to swap places with Southampton - this time next year, we could easily be the ones doing what WBA did last year, and Southampton could be the ones struggling. All i''m saying is, let''s see what happens when the heat is on them. I will endeavour and no doubt fail to remember to dig this post up when the time comes and they''re the ones at the wrong end of the table.

Also, given OUR current position rather than Southamptons - i.e. not doing well on the pitch - i''d be a lot more nervous to have Cortese in the board room right now than McNally.  

"will do" - future tense "has done" - past tense But since you ask, sacking Pardew who lead Southampton to the verge of the play offs after starting on -10 was pretty stupid. Pardew had a 53% win rating at Southampton, better than any of his other managerial roles. Appointing Adkins worked out but that was a gamble that paid off after Pardew had brought in the likes of Lambert, Fonte and Puncheon. I''m not saying they haven''t done well or that Cortese hasn''t done a good job - it is just my view that he looks like another chairman with a taste for gambles and knee jerk decisions so i''ll be interested to see what he does when things aren''t going so great for them.    

[quote user="ZippersLeftFoot"]swap as a club? maybe bayern or arsenal? but we are in a position to continue to grow but we only do that by being on the prem. we are well on track to do that, having go so far with a raft of injuries to first team starters, that looks to be coming to an end but confidence will need repairing first. We can invest again in the summer (probably some this winter too) and close again the gap with those teams who have spent, either over time or in one job lot; we are progressing in a sustainable manner. This years football remains better than last years even mor shocking fare. Onwards and upwards[/quote]   Not sure about that Zipper - depends what you saw last season and this i guess. I didn''t see much last year but what i did see i was fortunate to catch during our unbeaten run in the run up to Christmas and some of our football then was excellent. I thought we were excellent against Wigan at home for instance (but for a brief spell in the middle fo the game), then of course there was Swansea away and the games at the end of last season. There''s no doubt we disappeared in to our shells after Christmas last year and started playing to not be beaten which was dire to watch and i can''t say we''ve changed much from that situation to where we are now. We need to get our confidence back and every time it looks as if it might be starting to come back (West Ham, West Brom) we follow it up with something awful.

[quote user="KeelansGlove"]would love to know the number of times each of them has been last on motd due to being involved in the dullest game of the day ? I make no secret over the fact that I will take entertainment over results any time, even if that did get us relegated, i''ll take the results just need something to make me look forward to visiting carrow road every now and again (not every week) I am truly in awe of those that still travel to away games knowing what they are going to get although we do seem to have an awful lot of easily pleased fans.[/quote] What is really starting to amaze me, is that now we are fast becoming the new Stoke of the Premier League (save for the fact that the arcitecht of the old Stoke is back in a job!), and seem unable to tolerate dull football for more than a single season, is how on earth Stoke managed to put up with it for 8 years!!! 

[quote user="KeelansGlove"]Love your positivity Jas (although it does make me even more sure you''ve been at the wacky baccy) what on earth makes you think we can out perform Swansea and Saints ? I''m happy with a gradual progression for a long term goal but we seem to have signed better players and be performing worse, I cant see it as progress.[/quote] You make a good point - we''ve got better or at least as good players and are performing worse - but otherwise, our club is every bit as healthy as Swansea and Saints and also benefits from not having someone like Cortese at the helm who i guarantee will do stupid things when life isn''t a bed of roses like it currently is for them. It''s easy to run a football club when you''re winning. Owners and CEOs really earn their money (or not)when life isn''t as rosy on the pitch. We also have the lowest wages to turnover ratio in the league (or at least we did in 2011/12 season) which is a big deal and is largely down to DM. It means we have headroom to improve the squad further. So i''m hopeful we can turn it around because we have everything in place of the pitch and while we''re not great on the pitch, we''re not cut adrift at the bottom so it''s really important we keep our heads, secure our status this year, and for me, make a managerial change in April/May. Great data on turnover/wages/debts etc here: http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2013/apr/18/premier-league-club-accounts-debt

Actually RTB, this post seeks to address precisely the issue you are whining about by introducing a different slant on the Hughton in/out issue. If it bores you, you don''t have to get involved. Or are you one of those who just shouts from the sidelines?

[quote user="Indy_Bones"][quote user="lake district canary"]Ok, the football is not how we would all like it...So lets leave out the "nice guy" stuff and concentrate on the football[/quote] This in a nutshell is the problem LDC. I don''t think virtually any of us have an issue with Hughton as an individual, either in the way he presents himself and the club, or the manner in which he deals with others in the game. The problem is the apalling quality of football being served up each week... It would be bad enough if we were playing horrible, negative football and getting the results at the end, but when we''re playing god awful football at times (such as horribly isolating our strikers and looking ineffective in midfield) and losing/drawing on the back of it - it becomes a bit too much to swallow. He did his job last season, and those of us who weren''t sure about his long term position were told that the football would be much better this season due to him being able to bring in the players he wanted rather than using Lambert''s side - he''s had this chance, brought in some good players, and is now doing his best to make them - and us, look shit... Frankly, I don''t give a damn about the ''nice guy'' comments, I''d simply rather be watching a team that tries to play good, attacking, passing football (like we have been traditionally known for), instead of the dross we''re seeing FAR too often under Hughton. Regardless of his professionalism and personality, the football HAS to come first, and at the minute the football simply is NOT good enough... [/quote] This is one of the things that has "helped" me to change my mind - i think a number of fans on here who want him gone have been fare to Hughton and respect him but as Indy says, have concluded that for all that he did manage last season, it''s just not happening any more and the fans just aren''t feeling it. It''s not working. Two steps forward two steps back. Very frustrating and too much for many to take withouth concluding that a change is needed. I am just concerned about the disruption of a sacking at this stage and the lack of good candidates to replace, hence i would hope DM is working on that right now with a view to a change in the close season.

[quote user="The Great Mass Debater"] Ok, let me ''Double Dare'' the question back to you. If changing manager was no threat to our Premier League survival, but brought us more exciting/effective football, would you welcome the change? Whilst I accept that changing manager is a gamble, some gambles pay off. There is probably about as much risk of relegation in staying with the manager as there is changing the manager. We might get relegated with Hughton. We might get relegated with a new manager. We were in real relegation trouble last season. We''re still there now. A change could be boom or bust, but Im not sure I would class sticking with Hughton as a ''safer'' option [/quote] Yes, in that scenario, i would change. Medium term i would change too. But i think it''s important to differentiate between what is best for the club right now (or this season), and what is best for the club next season and beyond. My preference would be to hang fire this season and make a change at the end. The other thing i''m trying to find out in this post is whether people think we''ll stay up this year AND want to change the manager right now.  My point being that if we are going to stay up this season, it would be irrational and a dangerous gamble to change now, much better do it once we are safe.

[quote user="KeelansGlove"]Sorry RTB what on earth is embarrassing about it ? I thought the whole basis of message boards was debate and his seems like a valid debate regardless of stance on the matter.[/quote] Like Keelan, i''m not sure i follow your comment RTB. Can you explain? Do you want me to explain in more detail what i am getting at by asking the question?   Incidentally LDC, we might not agree on whether to keep the manager on, but i''m 100% with you on the nice guy thing. That does wind me up - totally irrelevant!

You haven''t actually said if you''d keep him for this season if you knew he''d keep us up. So the jury''s still out on your nuttyness! As for your other points: 1) Why not? It wouldn''t be so unusual to make a change after a relegation dogfight. Depends i guess on whether we pull off another late surge to finish midtable or if we do it by the skin of our teeth. Given the run in, i''m betting on a less comfortable time than the already quite uncomfortable time we had last season. 2) No, i don''t see signs of improvement - like you, i think we need a change. Just not right now because i think he will keep us up. Just. That''s what is at the heart of the OP. I''m interested to know if i''m the only one who wants to change the manager but not right now - it seems i might be! What i do see is glimpses of the team we could be but seem unable to become under CH''s guidance.

[quote user="Norwich Fer Me"]I think the answer to the OP needs to be based on what you ambition/expectation is for Norwich as a club. If you could Guarantee Chris would keep us in the league year in year out, then yes, I would keep him. If you believe that we can build on that and maintain top half finishes, cup runs etc then I am not sure I would. It would be silly to sacrifice safety for the risk a new manager would bring though. I think every team in the bottom half of our league would be saying they have a realistic chance of cup runs and improving on league position though. [/quote] Just talking about this season - if you knew he''d keep us up this season, would you still sack him this season. I think - even as an outer - that if anyone answers yes to that, they need their heads read. And i see some already have!

Central DEFENDER i mean!

The whole "do we need another central midfielder" debate in the summer comes in to sharp focus now. The answer to that was YES! Unless we can get one (a decent one) in the window, then we will have just about got away with it. But if Turner is another 6 weeker, Bassong like last season appears to playing on adrenaline alone, we are in trouble back there. I''d go with Martin and Bennett which we did at the back end of last season and they look surprisingly ok together.

[quote user="KeelansGlove"]I can accept point 2 he was the best candidate at the time and he achieved what was required by keeping us up last season (even though it was far from pretty) Point 1 i''m not so sure. He has no long term experience in the Premier league or indeed at any club and the limited success he has had at any level was based around playing a system around a target man (Carroll , Zigic) yet he comes to Norwich and spends 13M+ on two smaller strikers and doesn''t buy an attacking midfielder despite clearly favouring a 4-5-1 formation. His reputation is based mainly on what a lovely bloke he is. I cannot imagine that he would be replaced if he manages to keep us up and after giving him the benefit of the doubt about last season being a transitional period the fact that our performances have been so turgid gives me no reason to hope for more in the future. So its goodbye for me, give us a man we can all believe in win lose or draw. Truthfully I can''t see it happening and can see us muddling through the rest of the season finishing just above or just below the line and witnessing just more uninspiring performances. I still can''t believe I actually bought tickets for Saturdays game, I must be completely mad.[/quote] His reputation comes from other managers, coaches and players who have worked with him - it''s just wrong to call him incompentent. He wouldn''t be in a job if he was. Even if his experience in the premier league is limited that doesn''t make him incompetent.

Thing is Jim, we could still have a dire season with more drubbings and poor performances and stay up at the end of the season by the odd point or 2 by virtue of a number of 1 nils and 2-1s against teams around us. And it will take an iron will from the board and the staff to keep their heads while we float around barely above/sometimes in the relegation zone. An no-one will be happy with that.

Who''s to say if they got RVW rather than Bony that he wouldn''t be scoring freely. I rather suspect Laudrup and Swansea''s style would get more out of him than we are currently.

I am a convert to the dark side this season. But some people on here really need to keep their heads. I suspect many would answer yes to this question, which would kind of prove the point. Sacking him now would be a gamble, that is undeniable. Right now, stability is important, as is the fact that the squad is still clearly playing for the manager. Disrupting that now would be madness unless you absolutely believed that we were going down with the current manager. I don''t think the board think that, and most fans and pundits, although concerned/unimpressed, think we have enough to stay up. If that is the case, a change now would quite simply be an unnecessary gamble.  The time to change would be in May or even, if you were being particularly ruthless, as soon as safety was assured before the end of the season.  Also, a couple of facts some people should be aware of: 1. Hughton is not incompetent, as his record and reputation clearly show. 2. Hughton WAS the correct appointment. Number 2 can be stated as fact merely on the basis that he kept us up in the first season after Lambert''s departure, with a squad that was significantly below the current one in terms of quality and depth. Keeping us up last season was the one and only priority and that was achieved. It gave us significant funds and allowed us to clear debts and invest in improving the squad which has also been done successfully. What has swung it for me this season and is the stand out reason for a change imo is that we are now underachieving. I don''t expect us to overachieve all the time, but we now have a team that doesn''t produce to the sum of it''s parts. We have the best squad we have ever known and i don''t think we would be overachieving if we got a comfortable mid table finish. So for me, Hughton was the correct appointment but is no longer the right man for the club. I would however make the change at the end of the season or maybe just before. I have a feeling McNally might do just this. Or is that just hopeful and wishful thinking?!  

[quote user="KeelansGlove"][quote user="can u sit down please"]2) Why are Norwich so boring? Watching Norwich City can be a forgettable experience, especially away from home. The treacherous conditions at Selhurst Park contributed to the lack of quality in their 1-1 draw with Crystal Palace but Chris Hughton should surely be getting more out of his players. While he argued that they were the better side in open play, the fact is that other than Bradley Johnson''s fine goal, which was down to an error by Danny Gabbidon, Norwich created only one proper chance in the match, which Nathan Redmond could not take. There are talented players at Norwich – Leroy Fer, Robert Snodgrass, Redmond and Gary Hooper – but too often they are set up negatively by Hughton and, although they look as if they have just about enough to stay up, they are unlikely to give their fans too many thrills along the way. Jacob Steinberg[/quote] Wow I take back all those things I said about the gutter press, that for me hits the nail squarely on the head.[/quote] Bit harsh to call the Guardian ''gutter press'', whatever your political persuasion!