What have we got to be afraid of?

[First Wizard 0]

[quote user="Smudger"]Well according to you lot there were no better candidates out there than Hughton for the NCFC job in the summer.

I have suggested numerous candidates who were better imo and have even given you the name of my preferred choice.

It''s yet another case of lose the debate so start to attack the poster though.

I will leave it there but expect whatever manager is next in line after the failure of Hughton to do far worse just because you lot said so.

Lambert is a far better manager than Hughton.  Something that will be proven over the course of this season.

I seem to remember that many of you had doubts about Paul Lambert being a success when he first became manager of NCFC too.




[/quote]

 

Its standard practice on here my friend.

[PurpleCanary 5,562]

[quote user="Smudger"]Well according to you lot there were no better candidates out there than Hughton for the NCFC job in the summer.

I have suggested numerous candidates who were better imo and have even given you the name of my preferred choice.



[/quote]

That is true, albeit (not a word one sees used very often) only after be asked three times to names these several managers you claimed were both better than Hughton and available in the summer. You came up with a list that was tendentious on both counts. Howe, for example, might have been available but Burnley hardly seem heart-broken about letting him go back to Bournemouth. Di Canio has only ever managed below the second tier. Poyet (my number one choice) would have been a risk, and was probably not available, although I hope we at least tested Brighton''s resolve.

And your number one choice above the others you named (I have rather lost count of how many it was) was Neil Lennon. Who apart from a League Cup victory with Leicester has never won anything as a player or manager outside the increasingly absurd bubble of Scottish football. And your highly questionable reason for advocating him was:

For me it is not experience that you need to look for but the right kind of character. I believe that Neil Lennon is a winner. He was as a player and I fully believe that he manages how he played and is not scared of an awful lot.

On that basis Stuart Pearce ought to be a good manager, or Roy Keane,or any number of other gung ho ex-players. Being a manager takes all sorts of other qualities (some reprehensible) such as brains, strategic thinking and deviounsness. Lennon may have them, but until he shows some real character by leaving his comfort zone in Scotland and trying his hand at management in England we won''t know. He was way too much of a risk in the summer, and still would be.

[Indy_Bones 441]

Do I think CH was the BEST appointment we could potentially have made - no, there were a number of managers at sides in Europe (e.g. Favre, Dutt and Guidolin) who I felt would have been better choices and would have played more to our strengths and understood our weaknesses, assuming they would have come here of course.That being said, I''d rate CH above the majority of alternatives being suggested on here such as Holloway, Howe, Zola etc.Our start is nowhere near as bad as it''s being made out to be, but if we haven''t picked up by the beginning of December then I think we might have to make a change even if this costs us in regards to Jan signings, as a manager who gets the best out of our existing squad will bring more overall than a fancy new striker etc.Don''t write CH off yet, but he''s only got a short period to start making clear and tangible improvements before we should ''wield the axe'' as Wiz put it in another post...

[nutty nigel 7,536]

[quote user="Wiz"]

[quote user="Smudger"]Well according to you lot there were no better candidates out there than Hughton for the NCFC job in the summer.

I have suggested numerous candidates who were better imo and have even given you the name of my preferred choice.

It''s yet another case of lose the debate so start to attack the poster though.

I will leave it there but expect whatever manager is next in line after the failure of Hughton to do far worse just because you lot said so.

Lambert is a far better manager than Hughton.  Something that will be proven over the course of this season.

I seem to remember that many of you had doubts about Paul Lambert being a success when he first became manager of NCFC too.




[/quote]

 

Its standard practice on here my friend.

[/quote]

 

18,215 posts and yet you never have a good word to say about the forum. I s''pose your 18,215 posts are the forum''s saving grace....

 

 

[First Wizard 0]

[quote user="Indy_Bones"]Do I think CH was the BEST appointment we could potentially have made - no, there were a number of managers at sides in Europe (e.g. Favre, Dutt and Guidolin) who I felt would have been better choices and would have played more to our strengths and understood our weaknesses, assuming they would have come here of course.

That being said, I''d rate CH above the majority of alternatives being suggested on here such as Holloway, Howe, Zola etc.

Our start is nowhere near as bad as it''s being made out to be, but if we haven''t picked up by the beginning of December then I think we might have to make a change even if this costs us in regards to Jan signings, as a manager who gets the best out of our existing squad will bring more overall than a fancy new striker etc.

Don''t write CH off yet, but he''s only got a short period to start making clear and tangible improvements before we should ''wield the axe'' as Wiz put it in another post...
[/quote]

 

As I''ve re-discovered my mojo Indy, more Hex''s will be cast to aid the team, it won''t be down to how good CH is, more rather how good am I.[;)]

[Lambo 0]

Favre & Guidolin would both have been great appointments but there''s no way they''d leave CL football for a relegation battle in England. (I''m aware you did add if they''d have come here) Dutt i''m not so sure about, didn''t do much with a tidy Leverkusen side.

 

Completely agree with the rest of it though, Hughton was the best british based appointment we could have made IMO. He''s still learning the team and the players are still learning his methods. I firmly beleive both will come good, if we can add a out and out goalscorer (Charlie Austin perhaps?) I think we''ll stay up.

[Smudger 0]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"]

[quote user="Smudger"]Well according to you lot there were no better candidates out there than Hughton for the NCFC job in the summer.I have suggested numerous candidates who were better imo and have even given you the name of my preferred choice.

[/quote]

And your number one choice above the others you named (I have rather lost count of how many it was) was Neil Lennon. Who apart from a League Cup victory with Leicester has never won anything as a player or manager outside the increasingly absurd bubble of Scottish football.

[/quote]Lennon actually won the League Cup twice and had 4 top ten Premier League finishes (following winning promotion through the play-offs) during his 4 years as a player at Leicester and he was also a runner up in the 98/99 League Cup Final.Not bad for a player of a club that is a similar size to NCFC hey?Remind me how great you would consider a NCFC player or manager to be if they could achieve similoar in a 4 year period at Carrow Road.Prior to this Lennon was Captain at Crewe Alexandra I believe.  Crewe won promotion from Div 3 (3rd tier) for the first time in their history while Lennon was there in 1994.  In the same year, Lennon became the first Crewe Alexandra player to gain an International cap for 60 years when he was selected to play for Northern Ireland against Mexico.Again he had a major impact at a club.We all know about his time at Celtic.  We also know that Celtic could not afford to keep him if a Premier League Club did want to offer him the chance of doing it in England.  It''s unlikely that Lennon will ever take a job at a Championship club as the majority of them would not be able to afford to buy him out of his contract at Celtic.Personally I think that Lennon is well worth the gamble and that it is no more of a gamble than you take on employing any manager.I believe that your - but he''s never managed outside of Scotland viewpoint is very weak.

[paul moy 235]

I''d prefer anybody that came through the Clough, O''Neill, Lambert ''production line'' and that certainly includes Lennon who learned his trade under O''Neill just as Lambert did.  Their methods are all proven.

[PurpleCanary 5,562]

[quote user="Smudger"][quote user="PurpleCanary"]

[quote user="Smudger"]Well according to you lot there were no better candidates out there than Hughton for the NCFC job in the summer.

I have suggested numerous candidates who were better imo and have even given you the name of my preferred choice.



[/quote]

And your number one choice above the others you named (I have rather lost count of how many it was) was Neil Lennon. Who apart from a League Cup victory with Leicester has never won anything as a player or manager outside the increasingly absurd bubble of Scottish football.

[/quote]


We all know about his time at Celtic.  We also know that Celtic could not afford to keep him if a Premier League Club did want to offer him the chance of doing it in England.  It''s unlikely that Lennon will ever take a job at a Championship club as the majority of them would not be able to afford to buy him out of his contract at Celtic.

Personally I think that Lennon is well worth the gamble and that it is no more of a gamble than you take on employing any manager.

I believe that your - but he''s never managed outside of Scotland viewpoint is very weak.






[/quote]

 

My point is not that he has never managed outside Scotland. It is that he has only ever managed Celtic. A club where you or I could have a half-decent go at being a success. If Lennon had built up the kind of record at a smaller club that Ferguson, for example, did at Aberdeen I would take him seriously.

At the moment it is impossible to say whether Celtic''s success, which is purely domestic and - significantly - has not been replicated in Europe, is down to Lennon being a good manager or purely due to Celtic being one of two clubs in a two-club league and now the only club in a one-club league.

[nutty nigel 7,536]

Given the circumstances..

 

Has Lennon over achieved or under achieved at Celtic? What''s been the minimum expectation in each of his seasons there? I''m curious. But not from Suffolk!

 

 

[Smudger 0]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"]

 

My point is not that he has never managed outside Scotland. It is that he has only ever managed Celtic. A club where you or I could have a half-decent go at being a success.

[/quote]I get the points you are trying to make Purple, but I think that he would be a success given the chance in the Premier League or with a club at the top end of the Championship if they could afford him.  You posted facts about Lennon as a player that didn''t tell the whole story and I corrected you.The part of your post that I have highlighted could just as easily apply to Mr Hughton at Newcastle.  I would expect that the majority of posters on this messageboard could get a club the size of Newcastle promoted from the Championship at the first attempt.I would also expect that nearly every poster on this messageboard would know enough to get a club the size of Birmingham in to the play-offs the first season after they are promoted from the Premier League.

[PurpleCanary 5,562]

[quote user="Smudger"][quote user="PurpleCanary"]

 

My point is not that he has never managed outside Scotland. It is that he has only ever managed Celtic. A club where you or I could have a half-decent go at being a success.

[/quote]

I get the points you are trying to make Purple, but I think that he would be a success given the chance in the Premier League or with a club at the top end of the Championship if they could afford him.  You posted facts about Lennon as a player that didn''t tell the whole story and I corrected you.

The part of your post that I have highlighted could just as easily apply to Mr Hughton at Newcastle.  I would expect that the majority of posters on this messageboard could get a club the size of Newcastle promoted from the Championship at the first attempt.

I would also expect that nearly every poster on this messageboard would know enough to get a club the size of Birmingham in to the play-offs the first season after they are promoted from the Premier League.


[/quote]

 

I got one thing wrong. He won the League Cup twice, rather than once. But I regard his playing career as almost entirely irelevant to his managerial record. I gave the example of Roy Keane, with an absolutely stellar playing career, besides which Lennon''s pales, and perfectly fitting your desire for someone with a winning mentality, but who has overall failed as a manager. You are welcome to think Lennon would be a success in the EPL, but have admitted it would be a gamble. I agree that for a club like Norwich City all managerial appointments involve a gamble, but there are gambles and gambles. Lennon only having managed Celtic is too much of a gamble. Hughton, with experience in the Championship and the Premier League, was an acceptable gamble. I believe Poyet would also have been an acceptable gamble. But not Lennon.

[lake district canary 0]

A manager has to earn the right to be given a top job (and I class any team in the premiership as a top club).  Some of the names mentioned will have to prove themselves first.   Lennon is a Scottish manager at a club where the competition is not fierce.    How can that be good grounding for a premiership manager?   Likewise all the lower league managers who have been mentioned.   Lambert proved his worth - but he is on a learning curve - as he would admit.    Has beens who have been out of the prem too long are not attractive propositions imo.     As for foreigners who have never even managed in this country -  thats a bit like buying a lottery tickiet - 14,000,000 - 1 chance of success.   

I still remember the Newcastle fans the other week singing with genuine respect  "There''s only one Chrissy Hughton".   I still look forward to our fans singing it - soon. 

[Smudger 0]

[quote user="lake district canary"]A manager has to earn the right to be given a top job (and I class any team in the premiership as a top club). 

[/quote]So which one out of Bruce, Warnoock, Zola, Boothroyd and Dave Jones

would you have to replace Hughton if/when he doesn''t get the points required to keep us up, or have us on track for immediate promotion from the Championship next season if we are relegated?Oh and Paul Jewell has experience of getting a team promoted to the Premier League and I hear that he could be available very cheap soon - Thank you for that one Mr Chops.Add to those names that of Alan Curbishley (not worked in 4 years) and a possible return of Worthy (currently out of work after 4 years managing the 3rd world state of Northern Ireland).Any more outstanding candidates out there with Premier League management experience, or are people going to start admitting that they are barking up the wrong tree by looking for this kind of experience rather than ability to step up a level or two?There is a very good reason why all of these managers are not Premier League managers anymore and if I were a betting man then I would fancy the odds of Chris Hughton joining them once more very soon.

[Smudger 0]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="Smudger"][quote user="PurpleCanary"]

 

My point is not that he has never managed outside Scotland. It is that he has only ever managed Celtic. A club where you or I could have a half-decent go at being a success.

[/quote]I get the points you are trying to make Purple, but I think that he would be a success given the chance in the Premier League or with a club at the top end of the Championship if they could afford him.  You posted facts about Lennon as a player that didn''t tell the whole story and I corrected you.The part of your post that I have highlighted could just as easily apply to Mr Hughton at Newcastle.  I would expect that the majority of posters on this messageboard could get a club the size of Newcastle promoted from the Championship at the first attempt.I would also expect that nearly every poster on this messageboard would know enough to get a club the size of Birmingham in to the play-offs the first season after they are promoted from the Premier League.

[/quote]

 

I got one thing wrong. He won the League Cup twice, rather than once. But I regard his playing career as almost entirely irelevant to his managerial record. I gave the example of Roy Keane, with an absolutely stellar playing career, besides which Lennon''s pales, and perfectly fitting your desire for someone with a winning mentality, but who has overall failed as a manager. You are welcome to think Lennon would be a success in the EPL, but have admitted it would be a gamble. I agree that for a club like Norwich City all managerial appointments involve a gamble, but there are gambles and gambles. Lennon only having managed Celtic is too much of a gamble. Hughton, with experience in the Championship and the Premier League, was an acceptable gamble. I believe Poyet would also have been an acceptable gamble. But not Lennon.

[/quote]If only Chris Hughton had a great managerial record then I would agree with you.It''s my opinion that his track record in management prior to joining us was less flattering than most candidates.  I have no doubts whatsoever that you would have had enough about you to get Newcastle promoted when Chris Hughton did Purple and I can only describe last season at Birmingham as a failure - the worst season that they have had in many years and the very least that a club of their size would have been expecting the season after relegation with parachute payments.I''m sorry but for me there is no way that Hughton shone as an outstanding candidate amongst many other available managers in the summer.I voiced my fears on Hughton when the decision was made to bring him to NCFC and haven''t seen anywhere enough to make me reconsider the views I had on him prior to him arriving at Carrow Road.  Lambert on the other hand had no experience of managing a club of our size prior to joining us, yet I knew that he would be a success from day one due to the type of character that the man has.You keep mentioning Roy Keane - I have never been a fan of his as a manager or a player.

[Indy_Bones 441]

[quote user="Lambo"]Favre & Guidolin would both have been great appointments but there''s no way they''d leave CL football for a relegation battle in England. (I''m aware you did add if they''d have come here)[/quote]I agree it would have been a tough ask, but Guidolin was talking about leaving at one point and both would surely be interested in managing in the PL even without CL football, but that would have been the job of McNally and the board to handle [:)][quote]Dutt i''m not so sure about, didn''t do much with a tidy Leverkusen side.[/quote]I got the impression that it was simply one of those situations where the manager doesn''t fit the club. Dutt excelled when working with players he''d brought through and less ''star'' names, but struggled to a certain extent when given higher profile talent. The key point being that his ethic fit in exactly with bringing young talent through and that he was a tough but fair taskmaster, much like PL was. Also he was available for nothing so no compo which could have gone towards signings.He''s now director of football for Germany replacing Sammer so someone obviously thought he was decent!