LeJuge

[quote user="Adam NCFC"][quote user="LeJuge"]"He''s decent but should we be spending millions on another league 1 player?"It annoys me when people offer a thinly veiled criticism but offer no alternative options.We have a right winger, and now need a left winger to enable Lambert to play a 4-4-2. McNamee will stay as an emmergency winger as he can play left or right.Seeing as that we now need a left winger, and you seem to object to us signing one from League One, who is it exactly that you propose we buy instead? The best left winger in The Championship, Kris Commons, went to Celtic 6 months ago. I look forward to seeing your long list of options for what is the hardest position to fill in world football. For a team to have two decent left wingers within a decade (e.g. Eadie and Huckerby) is in itself a massive rarity. We were clearly priced out of Snodgrass, whilst Scott Sinclair got promoted. There is nothing wrong with being critical, or critiquing, if you offer alternatives..... but if you don''t come up with alternatives it can really dent your credibility. In fact, not sure why I even wasted the energy on this post. [/quote]Well after that essay I think you should feel a bit silly that he plays on the right wing. [/quote]Perhaps you should be feeling a little silly after your own literary masterpiece. Anthony Pilkington can play left wing, right wing, or up front. He even played numerous games on the left for Huddersfield last year, often switching from the right. It is common sense that if purchased he would feature on the left, seeing as we have Bennett on the right. The bloke is almost both footed, about 100/90, just like Darren Huckerby. Elliott Bennett is pretty one footed. That is Pilkingtons entire game, switching feet, constantly, cutting inside, cutting outside, crossing with his right, crossing with his left. He can play right, he can play left. It doesn''t matter where Huddersfield played him, Paul McVeigh wasn''t a left midfielder either when we signed him, neither was he a right midfielder, he was a striker. As was Hucks. A both footed player is a right sided player, a left sided player, and a player in the middle. I know which one will be playing on the left should we sign both, although of course it is likely that Pilkington was merely second choice to Bennett. I doubt you have seen either of them though, you don''t seem to understand what type of player Pilkington is. Here''s a question posed to Pilkington: “As a right-winger, do you have any tips on how to be as effective playing on the left?”Answer: “Always practise with your left foot if it’s weaker – I always have – because then you can mix it up: you can go down the line and cross, come inside to shoot or play one-twos with the strikers. The first couple of times you get the ball, test the full-back to see what he’s got. If he shows you down the line, you can feint to go that way and he might fall for it – then you can come inside. Or do the opposite: feint to come inside and go down the line as he’ll be off-balance at that point. But don’t always do the same thing because the defender will end up second-guessing you and you’ll become predictable. It’s all about making the right decisions at the right times. It always helps to have people running off the ball, though – your full-back or whoever. Look at Barcelona and Arsenal, who are probably the two best teams in the world at creating space at the moment. There’s so much movement off the ball that they always seem to be able to make space for the man on the ball.”Shove that up your backside, he knows how to play left, that''s from the man himself.

Fraser Forster - Yes pleaseMatthew Upson - Only if his wages are more Holtesque or Hoolohanesque than say Bellamyesque, he was on £40k at West Ham!! If he wants it he will take £12k, if he chooses the highest offer in Qatar or something then he isn''t our type of player. Matt Mills - Wolves are said to have have had a £3m offer rejected, do we really want to offer any more than that? Roger Johnson - Wolves priced out of him, apparently Brum want £10m, so errrm.... no. Luke Chambers - Yes pleaseRobert Snodgrass - Not if Whittingham is cheap enough, think we have bid enough. Max Gradel - How much will Leeds want for him? £90m?Lewis McGugan - If the price is right, perfect competition for that Hoolohan role. Peter Whittingham - Yes pleaseDarren Ambrose - No way, dirty scummer, had one great season the year before last but was distinctly average last year. Dani Pacheco -  Well we aren''t getting him on a perm, but a loan why not? If we were to sign McGugan though, we don''t need a third Wes. Henri Lansbury - Yes please

Pilkington can play either left or right, but if we have Bennett on the right, and McNamee on the left, then I can only see Pilkington coming in as a left winger. Likewise though, where was Whittingham playing last year? Because Bellars wasn''t playing up front was he? Whenever I saw Bellars he was on that left side.Whittingham was playing centre mid, doesn''t make him a centre midfielder though. Although that does make Whittingham an even more attractive option, because he could compete for that Surman role in the diamond as well as the left wing spot if Lambert wants to switch to 4-4-2..

I would definitely have Peter Whittingham, if we can get him. I''m not saying that Pilkington is necessarily the best option, I''m just saying that the options are very limited when buying a left winger and that poster offered no alternatives. I can''t see us getting him cheap though, Cardiff are very ambitious. Suppose it depends on whether Malky thinks he needs the money. Reckon he would cost us £3m. I''d like to think that we have a couple of defenders and a keeper coming in too, so have no idea what kind of budget Lambert is shooting for.

"He''s decent but should we be spending millions on another league 1 player?"It annoys me when people offer a thinly veiled criticism but offer no alternative options.We have a right winger, and now need a left winger to enable Lambert to play a 4-4-2. McNamee will stay as an emmergency winger as he can play left or right.Seeing as that we now need a left winger, and you seem to object to us signing one from League One, who is it exactly that you propose we buy instead? The best left winger in The Championship, Kris Commons, went to Celtic 6 months ago. I look forward to seeing your long list of options for what is the hardest position to fill in world football. For a team to have two decent left wingers within a decade (e.g. Eadie and Huckerby) is in itself a massive rarity. We were clearly priced out of Snodgrass, whilst Scott Sinclair got promoted. There is nothing wrong with being critical, or critiquing, if you offer alternatives..... but if you don''t come up with alternatives it can really dent your credibility. In fact, not sure why I even wasted the energy on this post.

Nothing like a good old small town witch hunt hey?I clearly remember it being said that Steven Smith rejected a bigger contract at Rangers to join Norwich for first team football. The likelyhood is that Smith went from Rangers money, to Norwich Championship money, back up to Rangers money upon promotion, and would be willing to drop back to Norwich Championship money but not to the peanuts that Aberdeen could pay. I have no idea whether any other Scottish clubs could pay decent money, but I suspect Hibernian or Hearts pay decent wages and you never know who has phoned his agent.As soon as I read the article I just knew that there would be people on here labelling Smith as the devil, without giving any consideration to any of the possibilities. If you are unhappy in your job as a Mechanic earning £15 an hour, that does not necessarily mean that you would be willing to work in Tesco for £5.80 an hour, you may well be happy enough to work in an office somewhere for £10 an hour, if the sums add up and that sounds like enough to pay your mortgage and feed your kids. Enough said. You would probably be willing to work in Tesco for £10 an hour though.If Rangers was the car garage, Norwich was the office, and Aberdeen was Tesco''s, that is the simplest analogy that I can give those who are sharpening their stakes and saving their rotting tomatoes. Smith has been working in Tesco this season, but not for £5.80 an hour. Maybe Hearts will give him an office job.I suspect that we can trust Lambert to give us an insight, it will probably come in 3 months when he says "Things didn''t work out for Smith in the summer but he has worked hard in training, and has been fantastic for me, all the lads have been fantastic" because that is the type of bloke that Lambert is. Craig Brown, on the other hand, looks like he would fit in well on Waccoe with his bitterness and hatred. We can afford to keep Smith next season if we have to, the bloke isn''t going to turn down games if offered them, and he isn''t going to want to show himself up on MOTD. In my honest opinion I think that Drury, whilst fantastic for 7 or 8 seasons, is way past his best and probably wouldn''t be second choice left back anyway if Smith stayed. If Smith stays, as he is entitled to as per the contract he signed, then I personally have zero issue with that as long as he shows his willingness to keep in shape and puts in his shift when required. If, on the other hand, he goes missing and puts on a stone.... Lambert would probably be the first to tell us.As things stand though, he is a Canary. By all means treat every word muttered by Lambert and McNally as gospel, they deserve it. Craig Brown, on the other hand, became completely irrelevant about a decade ago. The bloke is about 70 and probably hasn''t even been in Norfolk for 7 years, since he last came with Preston, who gives a flying F what that old fool is speculating? If he was any good as a manager at club level he could be managing a team with the clout to complete decent signings. As things stand he hasn''t done anything significant at club level, ever, in a managerial career which started in the seventies. I''ll take all of that back when or if McNally or Lambert confirm that Smith is only interested in money. Personally, if I were Smith, I''d stay on my bumper contract for a year and go back out on loan.

I also find it hilarious that you are trying to justify the quality of your players on the basis of International caps for tinpot teams and youth set ups.Howson has got one Under 21 cap, which he won whilst being 22 years of age, and he then got left out of the squad for the Under 21 Championships. Hardly being touted as the next Frank Lampard.Any Championship player should be considered good enough to play for Australia too, it''s almost as cringeworthy as Morrison being touted as an International because he has a couple of Wales caps.We have had tonnes of over rated Internationals, some of them have been amongst our worst players ever. Carl Robinson was the Wales captain whilst playing for us, didn''t stop us from getting relegated.If they haven''t won a World Cup, then I couldn''t give a monkeys whether a player has played a couple of friendlies in kids for a quid games.

If you think that McNally and Lambert would give any Championship player £20k a week then you must be an awful judge of character and I would hate to meet your friends.  If your midfield is really so great, then why didn''t you win automatic promotion from the Premiership? Our squad thrives on being continuosly under rated by opponents, and long may that continue. If it means that the big four play reserve teams against us next year, then you can expect some surprises.I note that you are a Norwich based Leeds fan, I would be interested to know just how many times you have been to Leeds and Norwich games in the past 12 months. Being married to a Leeds season ticket holder, I get dragged up there whenever Norwich are playing away.Having watched every single Norwich home game last season, and at least 6 Leeds home games, including the 2 games that we played against each other, I can categorically state that none of the Midfielders that you just listed are as technically gifted as Wes Hoolohan. I''d take Snodgrass and Gradel, I have to question whether Howson is really as good as suggested, I would suggest that Korey Smith has time to catch up and exceed him in terms of development. Kilkenny is nowhere near as good as Crofts in terms of all round game. Comparing a 4-4-2 or a 4-3-3 with our diamond formation is probably the most pointless activity possible however, like I said.... Lambert is a better tactician than Grayson..... who probably wouldn''t even have been capable of working Hoolohan into a strategy. The league table doesn''t lie. There is no way that a team with a weak midfield could finish in the top 2, or even the top 6, and whilst I would agree that the middle of the park is the strongest area of the pitch for Leeds, if you are going to slate our squad then you need to be looking inwards to work out what part of the pitch Norwich are superior in. The table doesn''t lie, we have a better squad than you, and with millions to spend our squad is only going to be getting better. Looking at your squad, I can honestly say that I would take 5 of your players into our squad, and even then a few might struggle to get game time. I''d have Schmeichal but I doubt he would nail down the number 1 spot ahead of Ruddy, I''d probably take Kisnorbo, but only to complete a group of 4 centre backs, I''d take Gradel but only because we don''t have any wingers, Snodgrass is class and I suspect that he would compete for a place (but still wouldn''t be the star man, Hoolohan owns that title), and I''d have Howson even if it could be argued that we don''t need him.The rest of your squad consists of distinctly average defenders, a few league one quality players, and Becchio who is a decent striker but wouldn''t be needed at Carrow Road now that we have 4 good strikers plus Chris Martin, on whom the jury is still out. Not that I ever expect a Leeds fan to be humble and acknowledge that they just aren''t good enough for the top 2, the best that you can hope for is to sneak into 6th place and play at your very best for every play off game. My wife acknowledges that, probably the only Leeds fan who does, at least Leeds fans who never go to games.

Assuming that we have already bagged, Bradley Johnson and Elliott Bennett, what positions would they be?I think that we would need another attacking Midfielder, perhaps Snodgrass or Lallana. And then perhaps a centre back who can do a shift at right back, and a left winger (Bennett can play right side?). Lambert will defo want the option of 4-4-2 next year, so I can see a left midfielder coming in.

I think some people are reading too much into it. He won''t necessarily take anybodies place in the first XI, unless he deserves to on merit.To put this into perspective, Lambert likes to build the perfect squad, not the perfect team. We have released Matty Gill, if we sign Johnson he can be seen as a replacement for Matty Gill. Whilst I respect Gill for putting in a shift when called upon, he is a step up from Gill. We aren''t going to be able to have a squad full of £2.5m signings.Every player is a squad player in Lamberts eyes. Rather than relating the ability of Bradley Johnson to say the ability of Andrew Crofts (no brainer, Crofts is defo Prem class), why not put players in a squad context? It''s a good way of doing things.Morrison represents stronger competition to Holt than Wilbraham, Vaughan represents competition for Jackson, and Johnson (if we do sign him) represents better competition in the middle of the park than Gill or OTJ (if only because he has just played a full season of footy at a decent level and has more experience with bigger crowds).It has always been about the squad, not about an eleven, I think that both signings and the two which look to be happening (Bennett and Johnson), coupled with those that have left and look to be leaving, show a clear step up in quality..... we can''t expect any more than that from Lambert, and its the same thing that he did last summer to some success.Nobody expected much from Crofts or Russell Martin, but they certainly delivered, no reason why somebody like Johnson (if we sign him) couldn''t surprise us too. Lambert is a better tactician than Grayson, if anybody can get Johnson ticking it would be Lambert.In Lambert we trust. Feel free to disagree of course!

Personally I''m not sure that I would welcome investment right now, not for full control.We are onto a good thing with McNally and Lambert and the general vibe at the club, you never know what you are going to get. There aren''t many success stories when it comes to foreign investment.Don''t get me wrong, I''d be happy for that Lotus bloke to take a slice, but I like the current board room and I''m not sure that the dynamic needs to be changed right now.

I hope that puts my post in a little context, this is genuinely news that had gone over the heads of Norwich fans (the article from April, that thread and a couple of others in May).It was picked up by Palace fans: http://www.cpfc.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-218933.htmlon 606: http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/A83259804On Twitter: http://twitter.com/#!/cpfcdotorg/statuses/66254816329998337Charlton fans: http://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/36689/leon-mckenzie-joins-northampton/p1And a few other places. Norwich fans missed it, well now they know, the end.

OK let me clarify a couple of things. My username has been my username since creating this account, Le Juge being the nickname of Julian Brellier, if the web team want to confirm that they can. I have just read back my post, and realise that I should have approached it slightly differently, in that there is of course the possibility that he will be found not guilty. The first bit that you are highlighting in red could pretty much be lifted from any of the articles, including the BBC one, if found guilty (the only bit that I missed from my post as you quite clearly point out) of all offences he could face 12 years in prison. Essentially though, the basic principle remains the same. No club is going to give him a contract and risk paying him to be in prison are they? Irrespective of whether he gets found guilty or not guilty. To be likened to a racist, or to that racist Twitter incident, that frankly astounds me.... and doesn''t deserve reply. I am sharing a news article, not doing anything illegal. Perhaps I should have put this post into context, I realise that I did a bad job of doing so. Since April the rest of the football world has been aware of this incident, whilst Norwich fans have been oblivious to it whilst in the midst of their hedonism and pure ecstacy and delight at promotion to the best league in world football. This post by me may seem sinister, I appreciate that, it would have looked a lot better if stuck on the end of this thread:http://services.pinkun.com/FORUMS/PINKUN/CS/forums/2527209/ShowPost.aspxWhich it would of been, had I been able to locate it before posting. Where Norwich fans clearly show themselves as oblivious to this fact. If anything, I''m just trying to point out that McKenzie hasn''t necessarily "had it", but has a lot of other stuff going on. There have been other threads too.I just wanted to share some news, sorry if it offends.

Have you been on the beers or something? I don''t see any section of my post which suggests that he is a bad human being or attempts to rubbish him, it was intended to elighten Norwich fans about a news topic which has been well discussed on Northampton forums, Coventry forums and Crystal Palace forums. That comes as a direct result of me seeing constant references on here to him being "not good enough" for Northampton, when the truth is that they wouldn''t want to risk giving him another contract in the circumstances (which club would?).Thank you for telling me how much you liked Leon McKenzie as a player. I suggest that you reread my post, where I specifically state that at his best he would have been good enough to get into our current team. There could not have been a greater compliment, it would involve Simeon Jackson getting relegated to the bench. And no, I have never done anything quite that serious, but that is besides the point. My point being that he isn''t going to be playing football for Northampton next year as a result of a court case, not as a result of his fitness or lack of talent. Sorry for anybody else who has posters of Leon McKenzie on their bedroom walls, I understand if you are deeply unhappy at my decision to share a news article. I was the same, when I was about 8 years old.

Does nobody else actually appreciate the irony in expecting the club to sell a size XXXXXXXXL replica football shirt? I mean, its a sports shirt, worn by professional athletes. They aren''t supposed to be made for fat people. Hence the reason Razor Ruddock had to get his custom made, because footballers aren''t fat, they haven''t been fat since the 1950''s.

I''ll proudly be called a ''Fattist''.That must be ranked far below Gingerism in the worlds most unsubstantial crimes to humanity. Or should I expect the scoffers to start support networks and lobby groups to campaign against the Fattist extremists? I mean, they may as well jump on board to join the hoards of other sub-cultures that play societies victims right? Then we can ban ''fat'' or ''obese'' as words when the next PC labour government are voted in.Ed Milliband can ban people from telling people to stop killing themselves with food and to get to the gym. Maybe we can ban Fitness First from advertising, like Tobacco companies are banned from advertising, and McDonald''s can be given government grants for promoting cohesion in the fat demographic? Nobody is going to put me on a guilt trip for telling an XXXXXXXXL person to stop scoffing and join a bloody gym. Enough people tell me that fags are bad for me, as a smoker, so I can say that grotesque amounts of saturated fat and no exercise is bad for you. Oink.

[quote user="Canarino"]I think you''ll find that the politically-correct term is "a person of size". Don''t bother looking for anything over 2XL in Errea, as far as I know they don''t make it and 2XL won''t fit anyone who is more than about a 44 inch chest. Also, there is very little give in the material. I know, as I''ve washed enough of it over the last 2 seasons. And the stitching comes apart quite easily. But it''s stylish :-)[/quote]Oh you KNOW that you do?You didn''t think to check the validity of your statement first? I mean, it only took me 10 seconds to find this:http://www.brfcdirect.co.uk/prod5.asp?prod_id=424&id=290&grpid=424&msg=&offset=#prod_anchorA Bristol Rovers Errea shirt available in XXXXL and XXXXXL Don''t really fat people get embarressed? By being an extra, extra, extra, extra, extra large? Call me ''fatist'' if you want, but sure there has to be a progression where you think... "you know what, I''m going to make sure I don''t get that third X, because I want to buy clothes from the same shops as everybody else".

[quote user="Indy_Bones"][quote user="LeJuge"]Then stop shoving your fat face full of fry-ups, burgers and beer and join a gym you fat bastard. 8XL? Are you taking the p*ss? Are you Jimmy five bellies? F*ck that, they should go up to 3XL and then make anything bigger illegal to encourage a healthy lifestyle.Do you have to buy two season tickets? I''m classed as ''overweight'' as per my BMI at 6ft and can still get into a standard XL pretty easily. [/quote]Wow, talk about hostile, but I''m not about to get into a slanging match here.I am also pretty tall at 6ft 3", and the simple fact is that our current sizes are 2-4 inches LESS than the standard sizing used by the industry.I can go into virtually any ''large and tall'' shop to get new gear and easily find a selection of 4XL shirts etc that fit perfectly and often have room to spare, whereas the club shirt at that size doesn''t fit at all. Add in the fact that many shirts nowadays are designed for the ''fitted'' look, which is often tighter and designed with a much slimmer person in mind, and size again becomes an issue.So with that being that case, I''m guessing that with our current sizing guide, it would need 6XL+ to fit well and be comfortable, whereas if I bought something that size elsewhere it would drown me!Whether or not I could do with losing weight is an entirely separate matter, and wouldn''t even be an issue if our kit manufacturer knew how to make kits that fit the industry standard, and not smaller...[/quote]OK too be honest I thought that you were kidding.But, if John Hartson can fit in one at nearly 20 stone, then I stick by my statement that the problem is not with the club not catering for your niche demographic, but the need for you to change your lifestyle. What next? Do we have to make a really really tight fitting shirt for anorexics? If you told me that you were 6 ft 9in and built like a Klitscho brother, then perhaps I would have a little sympathy. If the club were willing to provide a massive shirt, would you be willing to pay extra for it? Because running a machine for a few shirts will result in those shirts being more expensive (not to mention the materials). 

[quote user="morty"][quote user="Indy_Bones"][quote user="LeJuge"]Then stop shoving your fat face full of fry-ups, burgers and beer and join a gym you fat bastard. 8XL? Are you taking the p*ss? Are you Jimmy five bellies? F*ck that, they should go up to 3XL and then make anything bigger illegal to encourage a healthy lifestyle.Do you have to buy two season tickets? I''m classed as ''overweight'' as per my BMI at 6ft and can still get into a standard XL pretty easily. [/quote]Wow, talk about hostile, but I''m not about to get into a slanging match here.I am also pretty tall at 6ft 3", and the simple fact is that our current sizes are 2-4 inches LESS than the standard sizing used by the industry.I can go into virtually any ''large and tall'' shop to get new gear and easily find a selection of 4XL shirts etc that fit perfectly and often have room to spare, whereas the club shirt at that size doesn''t fit at all. Add in the fact that many shirts nowadays are designed for the ''fitted'' look, which is often tighter and designed with a much slimmer person in mind, and size again becomes an issue.So with that being that case, I''m guessing that with our current sizing guide, it would need 6XL+ to fit well and be comfortable, whereas if I bought something that size elsewhere it would drown me!Whether or not I could do with losing weight is an entirely separate matter, and wouldn''t even be an issue if our kit manufacturer knew how to make kits that fit the industry standard, and not smaller...[/quote]Industry standard? Really?The club isn''t a "Large and tall" outlet. And they can only manufacture a range of sizes that fit the majority.And are you seriously saying there are a lot of people out there that require 4XL clothes?[/quote]I once sat behind a bloke in the Barclay lower who literally took up two seats, he was like a rhino, and he must of had to pay for them too because the game was a sell out. I took a picture on my phone.Can''t remember whether he was wearing a city shirt or not. Personally I can''t see why the club should have to specially order a dozen massive shirts for those who buy up all the pies before I can get my hands on one.... if John Hartson could fit in one, that should instead lead to a dozen big lads heading to the gym.

[quote user="Indy_Bones"]Quite frankly I don''t really mind who makes the shirt as long as it''s of good quality, looks good, fits well, and most importantly goes up to decent sizes.Suppliers like Adidas and Puma can go up to 8XL, so I don''t see why other manufacturers can''t.Chances are however that we''ll get a piece of tat that goes up to 4XL at the most, so it''ll be another frustrating season of having no shirt...[/quote]Then stop shoving your fat face full of fry-ups, burgers and beer and join a gym you fat bastard. 8XL? Are you taking the p*ss? Are you Jimmy five bellies? F*ck that, they should go up to 3XL and then make anything bigger illegal to encourage a healthy lifestyle.Of course, the stuff about shunning iPads in favour of a pension, you should ignore that fella. Spend all of your money now on iPads, because you can''t take it with you when you go. Do you have to buy two season tickets? I''m classed as ''overweight'' as per my BMI at 6ft and can still get into a standard XL pretty easily.

[quote user="Lineo"]Delighted that we''re getting a kit from the guys who made such specials as theBurundi national kitBolivian national kitIcelandic national kitMongolian national kitand who could forget the Al-Hilal kit or even Bognor Regis Town!?[/quote]Oh look you have been on Wikipedia, how in depth. Why not now go and see numerous teams at a similar level wearing kits from Adidas, Nike and Umbro. If you want to battle me using your advanced wikipeadic knowledge then I will counter that with:AtlantaParmaBariCharleroiObviously the brand is good enough for Crespo, Zaccardo, Barreto, Doni and Donati.... but never good enough for Hoolohan, Holt and Crofts? Hahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. Shall we put a bid in for Zaccardo then? Tempt him with a Nike tick?Or is a world cup winning right back not good enough to displace Russell Martin?Baaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh.Bari Shirt: http://www.ifootballshirts.co.uk/266/as-bari-errea-home-football-shirt-2010-11/Parma Shirt: http://www.uksoccershop.com/images/14146.jpgNot THAT bad. Although not that great either.

[quote user="Huckerbys Boots - Matt"]LeJuge can I ask do you own an iPhone, iPod, iPad or a Mac?[/quote]I have already covered this, when I acknowledged that a certain degree of Chinese tack on a personal level is unavoidable, but it can be a much different story on a corporate level.As it happens I don''t own an iPhone, an iPad or a Mac. I do own an iPod, but I have the same one for 4 years and it was bought as a gift with my name enscribed on the back, so that wasn''t exactly choice.I avoid Apple products because of the mark up that we all pay for their advertising campaigns. Better alternatives exist out there for all of those things at a lower cost. I change my phones when they physically stop functioning, I choose not to drive, I own a desktop instead of a laptop because they are more cost effective, easier to repair and upgrade.I am not advocating that we all live in tents and hug trees, feeding off of berries and our own vegetables. A disdain for the ugly side of capitalist does not make me:a) a communistb) a hippyLike I said, I am a business owner, with a chartered accountant, who lives a normal life. That doesn''t mean that I have to become a gullible consumer to the major corporations. Neither have I claimed that I don''t succumb sometimes, sometimes there are few alternatives.My computer for example runs Microsoft Windows, I couldn''t really avoid that without it effecting my bottom line. But I didn''t buy Microsoft Office, I use Open Office instead. People do have a choice a lot of the time, I don''t need fashion accessories. I see iPads as a disposable gadget which makes other people rich and me poorer. People like to purchase the perception of wealth. They think that owning an iPad, a Mercedes and expensive jewellery makes them look successful. They are very different people to those who shun that. My response to anybody boasting about their new car on finance or their latest cruise holiday is "how much have you got in your pension".At 27, I have more than most people at 45. Because I want to reject the iPads and the flash cars, and the Macs, and the House of Fraser clothes, and my reward will be retirement at 55. Whilst those people are working until 68, or 70, whatever it will be, retiring in ill health and penniless, I would have seen a fair bit of the world if still fit and healthy.So no, I don''t buy Apple products. Just like I wouldn''t buy Nike products, and just like I refuse to read any Rupert Murdoch newspapers.

[quote user="Bird Table"][quote user="LeJuge"]And this will go against the grain. Three times I have seen people taking a dig at McNally for choosing to go with Errea instead of getting a Nike, Adidas or Umbro deal.Anybody who wants a Nike deal go and support Manchester United. I would refuse point blank to buy anything with a Nike logo on it, I would get a retro kit instead.If you want to spend £50 on a shirt made for 50 cents in a third world country in sweat shops in Bangledesh so that the club can make a couple of quid more profit then knock yourselves out. Nike and Adidas are despicable companies owned by greedy capitalist pigs and any Nike product has blood on it. Feel free to read No Logo by Naomi Klein for more information on that. Or of course you could go with Umbro, that very ''British'' company that makes their shirts in China, Bangladesh, Indonesia, and Korea.Errea shirts are, to the contrary, are made in a factory in Palma - Northern Italy, a country in which unions negotiate a minimum wage on an industry by industry or factory by factory agreement. Next year you will be wearing a shirt made by people earning a wage that they can live on, by a company who have kept production in their country of origin (unlike Umbro). That to me means a lot more than a Nike tick. I don''t own anything with a Nike tick on by the way, and say what you like about the Burberry boys, but they are buying British made clobber and supporting an impoverished town in Yorkshire. F*ck Nike, give me Errea any day. I think that I am right in saying that our Xara kits are, or at least were, made in Perth (Scotland). If so, we are carrying on a fine tradition.Of course, the same armchair glory hunting monkeys on stock up on Megastore Nike goods are the same people who moan about the lack of jobs in their working class once-industrialised towns with declining manufacturing industries.Shove your Nikey up your arse.[/quote]Goddamn Commie.[/quote]Oh look another victim of the class system, a working class man who has been sold the dissilusion of a ''middle class'' or ''upper middle class'' on the basis that they own an overvalued home. Did Thatcher sell you your council house? And now you think that your halfway up the ladder? hahahahaha.I''m not even a left voter, I was a liberal voter, I sit somewhere in the middle. And I do well financially, employ a few people, live debt free, own my home, take very little.But if you believe that there are any more than two classes then you are wrong. There are the top 2% and the other 98%. Occassionally a few from the 98% can get lucky, although more people win the lottery.Enjoy paying your 2.5% extra VAT, don''t worry the elite have given us all 1p off fuel..... so we are only going to be paying 3p per litre more, whilst Philip Green and other corporate bosses pay no income tax for this new financial year.Unless you are about to jet off to Barbados to spend some time in tax exile, in which case please pay your sweatshop workers a little more money, and do please limit their working day to 12 hours.

[quote user="City1st"]"let''s get our stuff from rich countries and insist that poor countries meet impossible conditions to stop them selling goods cheaply to us " Rather a stupid argument. If a rich country can pay rich wages (living wages) to it''s employees and still make a profit then how is it that third world countries cannot do the same ? If Umbros shirts are now made in places where " impossible conditions" are not enforced upon the producers (and employees) then why are the shirts not proportionally cheaper ? Where has all that money gone - or more importantly to who has it gone ?[/quote]You are spot on there. The consumer gets charged whatever the market will pay. The only beneficiaries of a fall in production cost are the corporations.Contrary to popular belief I am not completely against outsourcing, I know somebody who sells stuff to America, which he has made in China, a very small niche.He lives in England, and pays UK taxes on his profits. If he didn''t manufacture in China then he wouldn''t have any profits for the UK to tax. But, frankly, the same cannot be said for the major corporations. Most of those corporations get away with paying almost zero tax anyway, it is the man on the street who pays the tax.Profit on shares is tax free (not dividends, but capital gains). Hence the reason the rich can get richer, and the poor just get poorer. Nike puts a dollar or two on its share price, a few fat cats in California get rich. Nobody else benefits, plenty of people lose (lost jobs). Nothing ''left'' or ''right'' about it, more ''elite'' and ''everybody else''.

[quote user="Wooftie"]Although the OP makes a good point, I''d like to point out that there is two sides to this argument: Nobody forces these workers in third world countries to work - they work because it makes them better off. Yes this is at a tiny wage compared to western civilizations, but actually in local currency, it isn''t that bad. If the wages were so poor, and the conditions so bad, the workers simply would not work. Further more, often communities arise around these factories. This is because of a multiplier effect, where those workers spend their wages on more consumption, which is supplied by entrepreneurs who open up shops such as cafes around there. Also people move from underemployment in agricultural industries, whereby they have too many people working on a small bit of land, just to provide food, because they may as well, as they''ve nothing better to do. If instead some move to work in the industrial sector within the city, people can earn more money, by which they can now purchase surplus product from those in agriculture, which then leads to increased investment and hence an increased output. Anyways, if you''re interested google the ''Lewis two sector model''. Anyway, the moral of the story is that these massive multi-national aren''t terrible people for paying small wages in less developed countries - in fact they may just help them develop.[/quote]Wooftie, I don''t have a huge issue with the principle of employing people in these countries.I am specifically referring to breaches of labour laws in those countries. If they are told to work 16 hours a day or lose their job, they will work 16 hours a day, if they have no other options. If a Chinese firm came over here and broke employment laws, by paying people £3 an hour and forcing them to work 16 hours per day, they would be heavily fined and shut down. Of course, what actually happens is that they go underground in the UK, like the clam pickers who died, and as such they are pretty pretty unregulated.All I am saying is that these corporations can easily afford to pay a liveable wage for reasonable and legal working hours, giving people a lunch break, with very marginal effect on their bottom line.