Mr.Carrow

I've already told you my economic views are very Left wing and redistributive and recommended some books about poverty and the working class (which I'm getting the sense you know nothing about). If you want to move the debate forward you are going to have to either answer my questions or do some research so that you are able to. The Labour party has been described as an alliance between "Hartlepool and Hampstead". Given that there needs to be an alliance, are you seriously saying that there are no cultural differences between those conceptual groups? Maybe you agree with John Major that we live in a classless society? Do you think that "football culture" is exactly the same as "rugby culture"? So again, what explains the widely different outcomes between different ethnic groups across western societies? And given we both want to fight poverty, and just are disagreeing on the best way to do it, can you answer the question I've already posed? "If the UK government were to allocate a few billion to fight abject poverty, where would you like to see it targeted? The very poorest communities (which would be predominantly white), or communities with the highest "oppressed" identity markers?"

If you want to set up a completely false choice whilst completely ignoring cultural differences amongst groups which leads to differing outcomes, you are going to have to explain the reason behind those differing outcomes. If black people (but not, for example, Nigerian British) are "targeted for demise" are Chinese and Indian British "targeted for success"? Unless you can explain that then all you are spouting is ideology and empty virtue signalling platitudes.

Well it's the lot of NCFC that we will rarely get our first choice dream option. Often we have to settle for the best available and hope that it works. In a roundabout way, it did. Your view smacks of the glass half empty one characterised by when Farke makes early substitutions and we win he "got lucky", but if we lose he should have made different ones or none and we self-evidently would have won.

I expect even when a club appoints Carlo Ancelotti they have a back up plan to change things if things are going badly after six months. Literally no decision within football is without risk. In terms of results and players brought in Adams was about 7/10 but maybe without the edge and charisma to take us over the line. Do you have any evidence that other managers were available who would've done better? All we can really judge by is results and Adams laid decent groundwork and Neil got us over the line. As such, the decisions made that season worked.

If there wasn't anyone available who the club felt confident could achieve promotion then the above would indeed be a sensible strategy. We may even have achieved promotion under Adams- we were not far off.

Well, we got promoted that season therefore McNally's approach is vindicated. You could even argue it was the best possible outcome as we all had that amazing day at Wembley which increased the reach and status of the club. Adams also should be accorded credit for his part in that.

"Forgive me but I thought that was one of the points of trying to "foster working class solidarity?" "Workers of the world unite against your oppressors" and all that stuff..." Is this a joke? What part of proletariat Vs bourgeoisie is based on immutable characteristics?! You again have not shown how dividing people by immutable characteristics into victim/oppressor classes in any way helps fight poverty or creates a united Left movement. The really funny thing is that people like you create this fissure and then throw your hands up when working people vote against you. So, two more reading recommendations: "The Road to Somewhere" and "Despised: Why the Modern Left Loathes the Working Class" by lifelong Labour and Union activist Paul Embery. Your take on oppression of certain groups which you call "clear" is based on applying your own biased assumptions to data that shows an incredibly complex and often contradictory picture. Some non-white groups are doing better than whites on average. Working class white boys are the worst performing group educationally. The opioid/suicide epidemic in the States (which kills far more than the police) is largely a poor white male phenomenon. Under 30 women in the UK are doing better educationally and earning more than men on average. In Scandinavia people are scratching their heads over the "Scandinavian gender paradox". There are quite big differences in outcomes between various "black" demographics in Europe and the US. None of this can be explained by the simplistic identity politics "oppression" narrative, so few trust their solutions to problems they don't even understand. If the UK government were to allocate a few billion to fight abject poverty, where would you like to see it targeted? The very poorest communities (which would be predominantly white), or communities with the highest "oppressed" identity markers?

This is the thing, It's an argument that doesn't even make sense on its own terms. It's simply wrong. Incidentally, some universities in the US are now actively discriminating against Asians because their scores are so good they would be the majority of students without intervention. Good luck to them is my (non-racist) view.

It's the "Nobody wants to be the first one to stop clapping at the communist/fascist rally" phenomenon.

These people are classic condescending "white saviours". People of colour who speak out against Woke orthodoxy are called Uncle Toms, Oreos, coconuts etc. The president of the US stated that black folk who voted Trump "ain't black" (funnily enough Trump actually gained votes with POC...). As I've shown on this thread, they will not engage with books or media which doesn't confirm their bias. I actually was one of them until about 5 years ago when I (ahem!) woke up. I actually find their intellectual cowardice and complete lack of self-awareness funny, but their lack of humility is actually quite chilling.

I thought the implication was pretty obvious in my post that I want Labour to return to a form of corbynism whilst distancing itself from Woke authoritarianism. "They are already divided". Where is your evidence for that? Social attitudes surveys say the opposite, as does my own experience of over 20 years in a very mixed working class environment. I'd be interested to know your background? Again, how does splitting working people into oppressor/victim classes based on immutable characteristics foster class solidarity? Please answer this time.

Badger, I'll repost my questions which you have not addressed below (for the third time). Also, my book challenge to Horsefly above is open to you too. Read "Critical Theories" and I will read a book of your recommendation which shows how Woke identity politics and post modern critical theory will unite the working class and eradicate inequality and poverty. Deal?

If you tell me which points I have failed to respond to I will. However, it's pretty difficult to respond to points made based on misunderstanding or misrepresenting where I'm coming from. It's also difficult to have a reasonable dialogue with people who don't even seem to understand the roots of the beliefs they are so emotionally wedded to, and who get angry when a bit of reading and research is politely suggested. But, to try to keep it polite and in the interests of our shared humanity, can we cut a deal? You read "Cynical Theories" (and come back and give your opinion if you feel like it), and I'll read a book of your choice which counters my opinion that identity politics is driven by an authoritarian, divisive philosophy and is a huge net negative to the Left? What is your recommendation?

So you encourage your nieces and nephews to engage in thoughtless action?

Absolutely love the guy. The stuff he had to go through I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. Showed incredible strength of character (not to mention loyalty) to get through it and focus his talents in other areas. Still doing a sterling job and is an important member of the NCFC family.

Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Actually this one (with three questions) is more recent Badger.

Badger.

So, are you going to answer my question then?

By the way badger, I recommend looking at the US "Hidden Tribes" report to get a handle on where Wokeness came from. Clue: it wasn't the working classes.

I thought the implication was pretty obvious in my post that I want Labour to return to a form of corbynism whilst distancing itself from Woke authoritarianism. "They are already divided". Where is your evidence for that? Social attitudes surveys say the opposite, as does my own experience of over 20 years in a very mixed working class environment. I'd be interested to know your background? Again, how does splitting working people into oppressor/victim classes based on immutable characteristics foster class solidarity? Please answer this time.

If you look at social attitudes surveys etc, things have been steadily improving in western democracies. I believe Corbyn was a consensus egalitarian who genuinely wanted to do something about inequality but I have serious doubts as to whether he would have been able to fend off Woke authoritarianism- it has a vicelike grip on the Left now. So essentially I'm an old style Leftie who believes that poverty lends a lie to meritocracy (another book recommendation: Poverty Safari) and is a scourge on western societies. Now, could you tell me how dividing ordinary people into oppressed/oppressor, victim/privileged, racist/anti-racist based on their immutable characteristics is going to unite people to come together and change things?

Yes and in Havel's communist Czech Republic, they'd have said exactly the same about the "Workers of the World Unite" posters which were basically obligatory if you knew what was good for you. For context, I'm in the Americas therefore have mainly been seeing US media this year. At least in the US BLM posters, taking the knee, raising the fist was often socially enforced in a similar way. BLM posters outside businesses were referred to as "don't hurt me" posters. I'm Left libertarian therefore I react pretty badly to groupthink, coercion and authoritarianism. The fact that me merely pointing out that intellectuals of all backgrounds are calling out the same things gets such a hysterical reaction is, well, telling....

He started it 🙂