Juggy

[quote user="ReadingCanary"]Chelsea could apparently getting relegated this year.This thread has gone into madnessI''m off to bed.[/quote]Can''t sleep?

[quote user="ReadingCanary"]It''s hard to have a decent debate when you''re debating with a Wall. (even if it is a yellow and green wall)[/quote]You aren''t trying to have a debate, in order to have a debate you have to be open to listening to the other persons point of view. I''d be willing to have a debate, why don''t we start with this question: Why don''t you think Norwich could become as successful as Everton have been over the past ten years? We can go from there? 

[quote user="Al"]Ha Ha Ha Ha!!!This thread is a joke [/quote]Go home: http://www.twtd.co.uk/

[quote user="ReadingCanary"]The real question is if we finish in the top sixWill be commission a statue[/quote]No, because some of us have enough of a grasp on history to know that we have had more successful days and this club has not yet returned to its peak. If it weren''t for Liverpool fans we''d have been in Europe three or four times in less than ten years. Your small club Wigan-esque ''lets just avoid relegation every year'' mentality is not welcome by fans who had pubic hair before you left your dads nut sack. 

[quote user="Alan_Grey"]I though the question was could we be an Arsenal? Meaning a team which is consistently competitive for champions league places, and for cups. Not a team to finish high for one year. Of course that might happen, but we won''t stay there unless something drastic happens financially.[/quote]I said Arsenal and admitted it was a silly example.But I also mentioned Everton and their hugely successful decade. I can''t see why us or Swansea or West Brom couldn''t have a period like Everton have had over the past ten years. Particularly as Everton''s run is likely to come to an end now that Moyes has gone. People seem to see it is completely impossible for us to finish in the top six. OK so decades of success and growth like Arsenal is unlikely, but a few top six finishes and a cup final or two really aren''t out of the question. Is 11th to 6th really too much of a stretch of the imagination? Bolton did it for goodness sake. There will always be teams penetrating this imaginary top six (which is never the same for two consecutive years), some people on here are making out that the top six is impossible to penetrate (Reading Canary and Michael Bates in particularly). Clearly it isn''t though, plenty of teams have done it. 

There is no such thing as a ''top six'' because the top six changes every year.It is lubricious to say that we can''t break a top six which doesn''t even really exist. 

[quote user="Alan_Grey"]We wouldn''t have to just improve to get to the upper reaches of the league, we''d have to outpace the improvements of all those other teams. And guess what that would take? Something we have absolutely a lot of but still relatively little of.[/quote]Teams other than the current top 7 to break the top six:2000-01 Leeds, Ipswich2001-02 Newcastle, Leeds2002-03 Blackburn2003-04 Newcastle, Aston Villa2004-05 Bolton2005-06 Blackburn2006-07 -2007-08 Aston Villa2008-09 Aston Villa2010-11 -2011-12 Newcastle UnitedNumber of those teams to finish above us in the league system last season = ZERO. 

[quote user="ReadingCanary"]If we don''t finish 4th next seasonHowson isn''t the next Fabregasand Chelsea aren''t relegated Do i get a prize?[/quote]Now you are just being disingenuous. Howson was an obvious joke, I never said Chelsea were going to get relegated, I never said that we would finish 4th this season.I really do feel sorry for you if you can''t dream of Norwich managing a top six finish or reaching a cup final, is that what football has become? I am picturing somebody who is a little younger than me, perhaps didn''t experience 1992 to 1994, and can''t imagine the pure joy that football can bring to a fan.Has misery spread from London to Reading? A top six finish is not out of the question for Norwich, Swansea, West Brom, Newcastle. How about a different proposition. If over the next three seasons one of the teams that finished below 7th last season does not finish in the top 6 in any of those seasons, I will give you fifty quid. If any team who finished beneath Liverpool does finish in the top six in any of the next three seasons, you can give fifty quid to a charity for the homeless on my behalf. 

*five places higher in the league

[quote user="ReadingCanary"]Chelsea could apparently getting relegated this year.This thread has gone into madnessI''m off to bed.[/quote]Open your mind a little. We just finished 11th in the Premier League. Go and look at Everton''s league position history for the past twenty years.  I just feel really sorry for any Norwich fan who doesn''t dare to dream enough to imagine us being able to finish five places in the league. There would be no point in watching the games or reading the PinkUn if I thought we had reached our peak and couldn''t progress. Lambert didn''t think he could take us any further, I''m glad Hughton and McNally do, and they will. 

[quote user="ReadingCanary"]i would say Football changed less between 1950-1990 than it has in the last 10 years[/quote]In fact, this is the stupidest thing I have ever read. Just think about what you have just written, perhaps google some pictures of football in the fifties. 

[quote user="ReadingCanary"][quote user="TheNewBoy"][quote user="ReadingCanary"]TheNewBoy, just wondering if you were there in 1993 and watched the league back then?[/quote]Yes I watched every home game and four away games in 92/93, and was at Carrow Road for all three of our home legs in the UEFA Cup in the following season. My favourite moment 93/94 was the whole of Carrow Road singing "We''re in Europe, we''re in Europe, your not, your not" at Man Utd fans, after they got knocked out before us. Why? [/quote]]Because you don''t seem to notice how different the the league was in the 1990''s and now[/quote]Yes I notice. That''s why I am open minded about football being very different in the 2020''s to the 2000''s. Why would I look back at such a massive pace of change and then assume that things are going to become predictable and completely static over the next five or ten years? It defies logic. 

[quote user="ReadingCanary"]i would say Football changed less between 1950-1990 than it has in the last 10 years[/quote]Did you go to football in the 1950''s? 

While you are at it, tell me why Chelsea and Man City can''t become a Leeds or Nottingham Forest. And then tell me what would happen to the top six if that did happen. Would it become a top four? Would two other teams make up the ground and become a top six? Were Motherwell fans saying that they will never be a top 2 club a few years ago? Where did they finish last season? You note the rate of change over the past ten years, but are completely unopen to footballing evolving just as quickly or even quicker over the next ten years. We went from League One to 12th in the Premier League in a couple of years, and yet your mind is so closed that you can''t envisage a situation whereas we may be able to go from 11th in the Premier League to 6th in the Premier League in the next five.That isn''t me being crazy, it is you being close minded and unambitious. 

[quote user="ReadingCanary"]TheNewBoy, just wondering if you were there in 1993 and watched the league back then?[/quote]Yes I watched every home game and four away games in 92/93, and was at Carrow Road for all three of our home legs in the UEFA Cup in the following season. My favourite moment 93/94 was the whole of Carrow Road singing "We''re in Europe, we''re in Europe, your not, your not" at Man Utd fans, after they got knocked out before us. Why? 

[quote user="Michael Bates"]Our success in the past was in a totally different time to the football league we participate in now, money is a huge factor and clubs have increased in size through commercialization massively. [/quote]1950 was very different to 1970, 1970 was very different to 1990, 1990 was very different to 2010, 2010 was very different to...... you can complete that chain.  [quote] It is much harder to compete with such teams. Arsenal alongside Spurs and Liverpool are the second tier of the top 6 behind Chelsea, Man City and Utd.  [/quote]It used to be a top four. Now it is a top six. What next, a top eight? A top two? Since when have Liverpool been a top six side? They finished 7th last season, 8th the season before. You just didn''t want to mention Everton, because you know that Everton only finished in the top half of the table two times times in thirteen years between 1991 and 2004. Now they are bigger than Liverpool, who for decades fought a running battle for football dominance with Nottm Forest and Man Utd. We can now include Everton in the top six. It''s only fair, isn''t it? I mean, they have finished in the top six in five of the last nine years. Would be unfair to not include Everton, considering Liverpool have had just one top six finish in the last four seasons?[quote]  Newcastle broke into the top 5 at a perfect time when certain clubs were in a complete ''regrouping'' phrase. [/quote] Well then we had better way for them to have another regrouping stage then, whatever that is. With Everton turning themselves from a constant relegation threatened team (of Wigan proportions), they must have exploited the five ''regrouping stages'' that the top six have had in the last nine years. This is just your excuse for mediocrity, it is almost as if Norwich fans don''t want to see a situation where we could achieve a top six finish once or twice. If Everton can then we can. They have been broke for years, their squad is always thin, the use their academy. We can too. I hope that McNally isn''t this negative. [quote] Mentioning Howson in this thread relating to becoming Arsenal is obscene, he scored two good goals admittedly but he all of a sudden is made out to be the next big thing..! [/quote]See, now I know that you have absolutely no sense of humour or appreciation of irony. Can''t believe that you bit on that one. [quote]  2030 is so far off that nobody can comment on what the Premier League will be like, the next 5 years is hard enough but on thing is for sure, Norwich will not become an Arsenal within 5 years lol...[/quote]What about an Everton? Why can''t they become an Everton? There are two places between the two teams. Stop telling me why we can''t become an Arsenal, and tell me why we can''t become an Everton over the next five years. You can''t.... that''s why you purposely left them out of your top six and included Liverpool! 

[quote user="Michael Bates"] You are talking about a club who have finished in the top 4 for donkeys years, competed in Europe comfortably for quite some time, and play some brilliant stuff.[/quote]People said that about Nottingham Forest once.

[quote user="Baracouda"]i agree with the sentiment OP. Last year when everyone was talking about increasing the stadium several posters commented, with the increase in TV money... the impact of large stadiums is reduced. Whilst i''m not saying we''re gonna win the league, I genuinely believe a top6 finish is open to a team outside of the big six. Not saying us, but it''s the best opportunity for anyone. Wherever the top6 came from, use to big the big four and before that was United on their own competing with different sides each year, until Arsenal settled into a competitor). Spurs 1 champions league finish and Liverpool no champions league finishes in quite a few seasons... really ''''Big 6" ? Or just being kind to scousers? Top7 Sides: Arsenal -- Still not spent that 100m they going on about. Liverpool -- About to lose Suarez Tottenham -- Probably most settled, now looks like Bale staying. United/Chelsea/Man City/Everton new managers. Couple of those sides are going to get it seriously wrong and potentially open it up to someone to nick a top6 finish... even if it''s just for a season. Contenders? Swansea/Newcastle/WBA/Norwich??[/quote] Exactly, things change over time. By comparing Arsenal''s history to ours and writing off this thread as crazy (like Michael Bates) you would be ignoring the many ''also rans''. Nottingham Forest, Notts County, Leeds United. Those were massive clubs. Why is it impossible that in 30 years the landscape could look very different? Man City and Chelsea would be doomed tomorrow if their sugar daddies got bored. Chelsea could quite easily be the next Leeds or Nottigham Forest. And who knows which of the mid-table teams would step up to become a contender. We don''t now dream of being a Nottingham Forest, once upon a time many Norwich fans would have done. People lack imagination.

Hate to say it but Villa have made some excellent signings, particularly Nicklas Helenius and Aleksandar Tonev. Helenius would have been the perfect Holt replacement.... big, strong, good in the air. Hope they can''t put him up front with Benteke next season.

[quote user="Michael Bates"]This thread needs to be deleted, trying to compare us to Arsenal is hugely embarrassing. [/quote] Oh yeah because that wouldn''t be censorship! Did nobody see that I admitted it was crazy in the OP? I wanted to evoke a polarised discussion, it worked. [quote] You are talking about a club who have finished in the top 4 for donkeys years [/quote] In 86/87 we finished 5th, in 88/89 we finished 4th, in 92/93 we finished 3rd. We were good once too. [quote] competed in Europe comfortably for quite some time [/quote] Haven''t won a single trophy in eight years and haven''t qualified from the group stages in Europe for three consecutive years. They have been clinging on desperately to ''top four'' status and if Tottenham keep Bale they may finally lose it. We have already ascertained that 5th place is achievable, because Newcastle did it in 2012. [quote] and play some brilliant stuff. [/quote] Can remember a couple of Johnny Howson wonder goals at the end of last season, next Fabregas? [quote] however that certainly doesn''t make them a bad team whatsoever. [/quote] This isn''t about Arsenal becoming a bad team, it is about whether we can become a great team. I haven''t disputed Arsenals quality, but "can we become a West Brom" would have been a bit negative, wouldn''t it? "Can we finish three places higher in the league?" Whoopdy do, may as well go down if that''s the scope of what we are allowed to dream about. Notts County were once a force to be reckoned with, they aren''t now. Football is cylical, why can''t we be as big as Arsenal in 2030? [quote] They are a superb role model for all clubs across the whole world where money hasn''t bought them direct success.[/quote] Which is precisely why I decided to choose Arsenal as a case study and not a club which has been bankrolled by an oil barren or Russian ogligarch. That was the point, clearly.

[quote user="HazzaJet"]I do believe that we could become a Norwich side of the early nineties but until we become a team that always finishes in the top half I don''t want us looking into winning the cups. Last season Wigan won the FA cup but got relegated as well, the same also happened to Birmingham when they won the League cup a few years back. Leeds'' good FA cup run gave us the title of League 1, and I seem to recall a few years ago Arsenal were doing brilliantly in the cups, but the Gunners were looking like they were going to be the Gonners when it came to the league[/quote]The cup run and league performance thing is a bit of a myth or fallacy. Another way to look at the FA Cup for example is that 17 of the last 20 finals have been won by teams who finished in the top six last season. Our own cup run last season coincided with our 10 match unbeaten run in the league, and our exit from the cup saw us win the next league game but then fail to win in 9 league games. So we played better whilst in the League cup than we did after getting knocked out of it. 

[quote user="ReadingCanary"]I would take staying in this league over winning a cup any day of the week.Until we have a big enough squad, with decent enough quality I would hate us to risk what we have achieved in the last few years for the FA Cup.I''d be truly gutted if we went down. I honestly couldn''t take going back to the Roeder and Grant days.[/quote]Winning the FA Cup doesn''t have to mean relegation though, obviously. Plus it is the FA Cup, we have never won it. We need to win it. You could witness our first ever FA Cup win, our first trip to the new Wembley, those things used to be exciting in football - they still excite me. 

[quote user="ReadingCanary"]We should, in my opinion, take each season as it comes. Gradually develop the quality of the team and the size of the club / stadium. [/quote]The time is now. We realistically have Van Wolfswinkel and Fer for three years maximum, probably only two years. What''s the point in signing players of that quality if you aren''t going to have a proper crack at trying to acheive something special. Plus, do you really think these players would have signed unless Hughton at very least gave them assurances that we are desperate to win a cup or two or get into the Europa League? Those players aren''t going to want three years without European football. [quote] If we make big changes too quickly, we will find ourselves back in the dreaded Championship and no one wants to be back there. [/quote]If you aim for the moon you might at least land on a star (or something like that). Some things in life are inevitable. One day Delia and her husband will move on, one day McNally will, and one day our club will have hard times again and end up out of the limelight. If we go season to season caring nothing other than ensuring that we get our £60m then we are nothing other than a business. If we try and win something we are a football club, and hopefully one which makes their history a little more exciting. I am not old enough to remember 1985, I was very young. I want my own 1985, so should you. I do remember 1993, at least I have that, but people younger than me don''t have their 1993 yet. [quote] I would quite happily watch Norwich stay in the league for the next few years with the odd cup run. [/quote]I can''t see why we can''t win a cup and then attempt to have a European run, reaching the semi-final is just another defeat. Winning a cup is a victory. [quote] Than throw everything into a Cup win, only to watch our league form suffer and get relegated.  [/quote]We will be relegated one day. Who knows when, but it will happen. Either we finish mid-table everyear for a while and then get relegated, or we try to win some silverware and have a run in Europe and get relegated. Relegation is inevitable, it will happen at some stage. It is a little bit like saying that you won''t go on any holidays in case you lose your job. When you lose your job a few years later you will sit there wishing that you had gone on holiday when you in the position too. We aren''t going to win any cups in the Championship, you aren''t going to have any holidays when you are unemployed. [quote]  Every Wigan fan I know, is gutted with being relegated and would happily hand back the cup to be in the promised land again.[/quote]You know Wigan fans? I''ve only ever met two in my life, and they preferred the rugby team! 

[quote user="ReadingCanary"]Newcastle also almost got themselves relegated this year because they believed they didn''t need to keep their best player and invest in quality to replace him.All teams below the top 5 can quite easily struggle when the next season comes alongBlackburn Bolton and Wolves are perhaps the most recent example of teams who were apparently "stable" in the league.. look where they are now.[/quote]Look, I know my OP was over the top, I even pretty much said it myself. But what I would really like to see is this Norwich squad achieve something really special, even if it is a one off. A top five finish or a cup win would be the icing on the cake. No point in saying that a cup run or trip to Europe makes the league more difficult, no team is remembered for finishing mid-table every year. So would you take 11th place every year with no trip to Europe? I''d personally love to see us lift some silverware, even if it were to signal the end of the era and give us the risk of a subsequent decline. We haven''t won anything since 1985, that''s 28 years. Would be nice to get a trip to Wembley and a European gaunt or two. We haven''t got anywhere until we get to all go to some dump in Serbia in the freezing cold to get drunk and watch our boys take their game on the road. Nobody else have this dream? 

[quote user="ReadingCanary"]An FA Cup win does not make us an "Arsenal" [/quote]No, it would make us more successful than the current Arsenal team.