vos
-
Content Count
1,183 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Posts posted by vos
-
-
Thanks for all the useful contributions. I will now try to answer all the queries. Don''t forget there is a certain amount of rounding up/down etc.
1) The number of non-football staff is around 130. Football staff 75.
2) No dividends paid to shareholders. No fees to directors apart from Roger Mumby''s company paid £25k to compensate for his absences on Club work. By the way the Ipswich Town chairman takes out around £150k - probably more by now !!!
3) Depreciation. £1.3 million on freehold property £0.2 million on plant and machinery. Under this heading I have also included £2.2 million amortisation of players registration which I take it is a procedure to write down values of players. This total sum of around £4 million is set off against profits to reduce tax.
4) Interest. £1 million is in respect of the large loan. Average rate is 7.4%. £0.6 million is interest on other loans/overdrafts. The directors have never charged interest on their loans. It would appear that nearly all the property assets are charged as security including the nearby development land and Colney.
5) The argument re using spare space for office development is well made and makes financial sense.
6) Assuming a playing squad of some 35 senior players then they are paid on average around £200k p.a. Those of us who probably think they see better footballers on the local parks will consider this as excessive but that''s the market rate. Bear in mind a fit athlete who can kick with one foot and score 10 goals a season in the premiership is paid £200k or more per week.
7) I would suggest it is not easy to compare finances with other clubs as each situation varies so much. BUT the directors must be devastated that having established a "premiership set up" as we have at Carrow Road they find themselves with a worse team than Colchester United !!! As they say that''s football.
Finally I think one big problem here is that Delia has surrounded herself with some fairly competent modern business professionals who understandably have pursued "modern ideas" and made full use of any asset available. Unfortunately on the football side - dare I say it - we have lacked the shrewdness of a Robert Chase and successive managers have dealt very poorly in the transfer market where a lot of money has been wasted. Before anyone says it, yes I know the world of football has considerably changed (for the worse) since the days of the aforementioned.
-
Thanks Mr Carrow. Looking through all the bumpf I agree with your figures. The non-football wages certainly look high but I assume a fair amount is in connection with commercial/catering services. I notice that the Club have recently taken out a loan for £1.3 million to finance office development which typically suggests there is an air of extravagance which somebody needs to get to grips with.
-
Having seen my figures there seems to be a bit of a cockup on alignment between me and the Pink Un. I think the best way to understand it is to add up the figures so that they agree !!!!! It now looks as if it is a "genius guide" to the Canary accounts. I will try to answer any queries. -
Bimbo. I can assure you that I am not thick and under no circumstances did Robert Chase bleed us dry. That is a complete myth. There is absolutely no guarantee that if we kept Martin O''Neill and bought Windass we would have retained premiership status. The present Board have recently taken out a loan of £1300000 i.e. over a million pounds (per latest accounts). And what have they spent it on - office development at Carrow Road !!! -
Many comments have been aired re financial affairs. As someone with some experience of company accounts I thought I would summarise last 4 years which I hope will be easy to follow for the average fan. The figs are in £million.
Income 2004 2005 2006 2007
Gate Receipts 5 8 8 8
FA/League/Sky 1 21 8 8
Catering 3 3 4 3
Commercial 4 5 4 4
Sundry 3 1 1 1
Player Trading 6 3
Profit on Land sale 4
Total Income 20 38 31 27
Expenditure
Staff Costs/Wages 12 17 15 14
Operating Exps 6 8 7 7
Interest 2 2 2 2
Depreciation 2 3 5 4
Total Costs 22 30 29 27
Profit(Loss-) -2 8 2 0
Assets
Ground 30 33 35 37
Player Registrations 2 5 4 4
Debtors/Cash 7 9 10 10
Total Assets 39 47 49 51
Liabilities
Receipts in advance 6 6 7 8
Creditors 6 8 9 7
Loans/Bank overdraft 5 5 4 7
Long Term Loan 14 14 13 13
Total Liabilities 31 33 33 35
Shareholders Funds 8 14 16 16
1) The income for 2008 will drop to around 20 million due to loss of SKY payment.
2) There is little evidence that outgoings will significantly reduce so there could be a large shortfall.
3) Since accounts were prepared a nett 3 million has been received on transfers. With careful control the club should be able to finance its normal activities in the short term particularly as further monies are expected from land sales - providing property market does not deteriorate.
4) There appears to be little scope for funds for new players. Any sale of the current squad, as we all know, will bring in very little.
5) The blindingly obvious problem is players wages. A frequent question posed is why do not local businesses, and for that matter Delia, put in more money. Why should they when very mediocre players are paid ridiculous amounts and employ agents who have no loyalty to Norwich City FC.
Hope I have helped. Tried to keep it as short as I can !!!!!
-
Chase was by some distance the greatest Chairman we ever had. Took us to FA Cup semi-finals, Europe and held our own in the old Div 1. We played a lot of attractive football which is light years ahead of the current squad. His shrewd land investments, criticised by some of the current Board, have considerably helped over recent years. The financial position at the time was no more worse than it is now. When he left his critics were moaning about £5 million of debt. Now, including all creditors, we owe £27 million. I agree he was not the best of communicators but I am sure he would make a better job of things than the current regime. -
I don''t particularly blame the defence. The main problem for some time is the inability to create decent chances upfront. Once again the opposing goalkeeper was hardly tested. Cardiff were there for the taking but we completely lacked a cutting edge and did not really look like scoring. Against this sort of opposition, with Fowler and Hasselbaink non-existent, we should have been capable of being well ahead at half-time and put the result beyond doubt. The manager has to take some of the blame. He removed the most attacking midfielder - Chadwick - and the delay in introducing Huckerby did not make sense. -
The sad thing about todays result is that Cardiff were very mediocre with a cumbersome looking defence vulnerable to pace.Up front Fowler and JFH were virtually non-existent partly due to the fact that Dion and the much maligned Docherty had them under complete control. I thought we defended reasonably well for much of the match but certainly gave away two soft goals.
The main problem with this team is the lack of skill when moving forward and the inability to create hardly any chances. Already this season in most matches we have barely tested the opposing goalkeeper. Despite a draw at Preston I believe the home side had 12 corners to our Nil. That surely is a clearcut statement of our weaknesses. After going one up early on with a gift goal, Cardiff were there for the taking and tacticly we should have attacked and sown up the game and soft goals would not have come into the equation. Compared with many teams in the Championship the manager has had a fair amount of money to purchase decent new players but so far they have failed to make any impact.
I still remain unimpressed with Grant and we desperately need a lot of improvement in the coaching staff. After playing 120 minutes at Rochdale with no apparent ill effects I cannot see any reason at all why Huckerby was not introduced a lot earlier - indeed why did he not start ?? Brown worked very hard and was in the game all the time. Why, because he continually received chest high balls throughout the match some 10 yards outside the penalty area and then understandably most moves broke down. Sadly that appeared to be our only attacking option.
Until we are able to bring a more cutting thrust to our forward play we are going nowhere.
-
I completely agree with the other comments. He is potentially a class player with a good touch, but also strong on the ball. If he is to make real progress he must be given a chance now.I am amazed he is not yet featuring in the first team this season. I suspect I am one of many who is far from convinced as to Grant''s managerial abilities and the fact that he does not seem to be aware of Spillane''s talent only adds to my doubts. Spillane is a far better footballer than Lappin and Fotheringham but unfortunately Grant will give his fellow Scots ample opportunities, amongst other things to justify his decision to buy them. -
I know there is a lot of rubbish spoken on this site but I am amazed that various discussions and team selections for next year make no mention of the most promising footballer on the books. Mickey Spillane. He is young, strong, comfortable on the ball. Defends well and yet quick to join the attack. Compared with Saffri, always injured/booked/away and Etuhu, disappears for long periods, Spillane is a footballer with class. Having watched the Canaries for 60 years surely at least one of the regular contributors would recognise real potential when they see it. -
Cannot see the justification for this at all. Adam has just had a couple of mediocre seasons and shows no signs of making any further improvement. Has also become a bit injury prone. Does try hard but surely a long term deal will leave him in the comfort zone.
In no way should he continue as captain. Appears to have a quiet personality and I have actually never seen him shout at or instruct another team mate. Having said that, at the moment, there are few other candidates for the job.
Plenty of unrealistic comments continue on the message boards re the Directors etc. I am more worried about the manager !!!!
-
Ipswich certainly deserved a point and shaded the match due to the fact that being the visitors they did not give up and came out for the second half and took control of the game. Typical Norwich performance, bright start plus early goal but just did not press home the advantage. Hughes had a great game giving 110 per cent and played several decent balls. Etuhu produced several excellent touches and scored a great goal. Once again Huckerby our only real threat up front and despite recent injury problem showed pace and commitment for the whole 90 minutes. I thought our main problem was that Croft and Fotheringham did little in midfield and I do not see them improving. Croft lacks pace and does not look particularly fit.
I accept Earnshaw has just returned after a long lay off and he has been a regular scorer, but as on several occasions he did little today. It would help if he moved out to the flanks and found some space but he maintains a central position and due to his size he is continually muscled off the ball. He basically relies on the through ball along the ground but if this is not forthcoming he is fairly ineffective. One of the main reasons we struggled today was that we lacked a tall strong player upfront to hold up the ball from which we could have built more attacks. Personally I would sell him at the right price and use the money to generally strengthen the team.
Overall an entertaining local derby played in a fine spirit helped by the fact we had a good referee.
-
Shaun you did not understand my comments re ground as security. I made no mention of selling it etc. I was simply making the point that 10 years ago, just as now, the main lender had the security of the ground. As regards "tight ship" thats what the present regime keeps telling us but you only have to look behind the scenes to see they could have been more prudent. Do you seriously think Chase would have sold players on the terms that we were finally paid 2 years later. The Board shows a lack of tough business negotiating skills and repeatedely talk of balancing the books by asset sales. This policy cannot survive much longer.
Lets settle the debate. At the end of this current financial year the Board will have received some £35 million from the Sky deal over 3 years. £4 million odd for the "flour mill" sale. Despite this,at the date of the last accounts they owed £26 million including normal creditors AND also owed around £7 million for advanced ticket sales receipts.And what are we left with a squad which is not worth much more than £5 million Anyone who says the financial picture is now better must be joking..
I repeat the current Board are honourable people and Delia and hubby have invested considerable sums. They have done their best in difficult times for football but they cannot compare with the record of Robert Chase.
Just like Fram Canary I can see Shaun I will never convince you of the blindingly obvious and its time for bed. Having just returned from the AGM needless to say I am depressed. Plenty of spin but no substance.
-
OK Shaun let''s accept that after many successfull years under Chase we had hit a bad financial patch. But be fair, on balance he had given us many years of entertaining football and had shown a considerable amount of business acumen in his overall dealings. I do not accept we were more or less bust and where is the evidence that other clubs were being circulated about all our players being available for sale.By the way don''t forget the Bank had security of the ground then and his "flour mill" acquisition has got the present Board off the hook.
It is no use churning out the red herring that the present loan is Ok just because its long term. Most homeowners have a long term house loan, but you will soon be in trouble if your earnings drop.I would also imagine a football ground is about the worst type of security a banker would want to hold. When was the last time a Bank foreclosed on a football ground !!! That''s why the main clearing banks will not touch football clubs with a bargepole.
Robert Chase was used to the rough and tumble of the business world. Our present Board I would suggest have in their own personal capacities not had the same experiences. They have surrounded themselves with many professionals who are both capable and proficient. But as employees do they carry the same ruthless streak??. For example have we been too easy in our transfer dealings, expenditure on the ground, development land etc.???
-
Can''t agree with much of what Shaun Lawson says. He should look at the situation with more balance and jump off the "anti-Chase bandwagon".
It is completely untrue to say we were 48 hours from financial disaster. There was a considerable delay before he formally departed because if an earlier post is correct he had to be released from personal security he had given to the Bank. As continually pointed out he could have cleared the £6 million debt from sale of players. We now have total liabilities of £26 million (long term loan £13m other loans £4m and creditors £9m) as per 2006 accounts and value of playing squad £5million if we are lucky !!! The directors state we are OK because bulk of debt is long term loan. This not true because once the £7 million parachute payment stops we will have difficulty in keeping up the repayments.
Robert Chase was a frequent dealer in the transfer markets with considerable success and yet at the same time we played good entertaining football at the higher levels. Bearing in mind "small Norwich" he took us into Europe and we had great success in the premiership and FA Cup. Shaun criticises him for expense payments etc. Does he not realise that nearly all football club directors are bound to take perks out of the game and as regards managers taking bungs - where do we start !!!
I fully accept the world of football has dramatically changed over the past 10 years entirely due to Sky money. Nearly everywhere you look clubs are being forced to pay wages which are unrealistic. It is not an easy job to run a football club.
I have been a regular attendee of the AGM''s and will be there tonight. Roger Mumby is always approachable and open but unfortunately typical Norfolk reticence usually takes over and the directors are not pressed hard enough. The Worthy saga being a classic example.
Somebody mentioned on Radio Norfolk today that they did not want to see police on horses outside the ground which marked the end of the Chase era. Why not - we have not seen much excitement there since he left.
-
On the front of todays EDP football page there is a picture of our players congratulating each other on the goal against Plymouth. The noise in the stadium was at a high level. What is our manager''s response. He is completely ignoring them but shouting out instructions to another player who would have no hope of hearing him - and for that matter understanding him !!! What on earth was the point of this ?? No wonder head coach Martin Hunter looks bemused.
So far Peter Grant''s approach seems to be "I am a hard man who knows best and will sort you out". This has not worked and we are now a worse team than when the boring and defensive Worthington left. We have a reasonable squad to make an impact in this division but the players are clearly not motivated and I suspect Grant has already lost the dressing room.
I feel sorry for the Board as on paper he seemed a sensible choice. However, there policy of little interference with the Team Manager has not worked for some time and they have taken their eye of the ball becoming too involved with property development, catering etc. This current squad should keep us up and I would not advocate any more expenditure on players for the time being until we see whether Grant can get to grips with the situation. We desperately need a shake up on the coaching side.
-
Grant looked good on paper. Particularly when endorsed by David Stringer. He does appear to be out of his depth. Appears to be deliberately winding up the better footballers i.e Huckerby and Safri. Today he left Saturday''s man of the match on the bench plus Croft. I have noticed the players are completely bemused by his instructions. He frequently calls a couple of players over to the touchline who then frantically pass over the instructions to two or three other players. They look confused. Against Southend he did this five minutes after the players had come back after half time!!!.
Neil Adams is now saying in his defence that he is inexperienced. That being so he needs a wise head to support him - Livermore is definitely not the answer. I have the feeling the players do not have much confidence in him - they wanted Hunter !! Against Southend he seemed to be arguing with Hunter. We will have to give him more time but the jury is definitely out. I did agree by the way that the defensive Worthy had to go.
-
Football has changed significantly since the Chase era as a result of the Sky money. His record was far superior than we have seen from the current board. Yes he could be described as dictorial but at the end of the day it is results that matter.
He left with a £5 million or thereabouts debt on a bank overdraft and he possibly personally guaranteed a proportion of this. Currently Bank''s take such a dim view of football finances that they will barely lend them a penny. The present directors naively state that the present main debt of £15 million is OK because it is on a 15 year long term loan. This is nonsense because if you cannot generate enough income to meet the repayments, as is the present situation, then you will have big problems. For example just because your own personal house loan is on a long term mortgage it does not mean all is well. If you can''t keep up the repayments then you need to start worrying.
Delia is in the same position as Robert Chase. Compared with many other owners they do not have massive sums to throw down the drain i.e. massively overpaid "footballers"
-
Agreed. Totally outclassed in every department of the game by a young makeshift team with loan players. Peter Grant I am afraid was tactically outgunned. Ipswich seemed to have more players on the pitch and Drury was left completely exposed for the whole of the match.
Don''t know what is wrong with our coaching but no one ever got hold of the ball, could not create any space, always turned back towards own goal. Virtually every pass was hurried and more or less just kicked anywhere. Apart from Shackell''s surge near the end can''t really think of a decent move.
Our star stiker Earnshaw received no service at all and I am afraid Huckerby has lost pace and was unable to take on the fullback on the outside. Chadwick had a few nice touches. As usual midfield was dreadful especially Hughes and Robinson.
We need a complete overhaul especially in the coaching area.
-
Safri is too injury prone, plus he has his religious difficulties. Unfortunately another journeyman signed by Worthington. Yes I would certainly let him go.
As regards Ernie he his quick and has scored a reasonable amount of goals. In my opinion my main striker has to be big and put himself about. Croft and Huckerby - who has lost a bit of pace - are good wingmen by Championship standards. When it comes to crossing you can see time and time again they are unable to pick anyone out because of lack of height in the penalty box. So the balance of the current strike force is not right - hence lack of goals from frontmen. Unless Ernie receives a certain type of service i.e. balls behind defence to run on to, he can be anonymous for long periods. At least when Dublin came on against Colchester he did at least get into the game despite many poor quality high balls being pumped out from the defence.
So yes let Saffri go and invest in a big "centre forward"
-
Its a good deal. Only problem is that only a few days left in transfer window so hope no panic buys made. Present squad should comfortably survive this season, but going nowhere, so rebuild and strengthen in summer. We must change coaching staff. Adrian Boothroyd won yesterdays tactical battle by a mile. In particular played numerous high balls to Charlton, who is a decent player but lacks height, and caused us problems in that area for most of the match. What was Worthy''s response. Stood and watched for 90 minutes arms folded and virtually no reaction.
-
Yes this is a good sale. It is no use criticising the Board for mixed messages. At the end of the day they obtained a very good price and played their cards well. Ashton could see we have little hope of regaining premiership status this season and if he made it clear he wanted away then unfortunately thats football these days.
We only have a few days left before the transfer window closes and so I sincerely hope we do not dive in and make panic buys. My view is that we have a strong enough squad to achieve a comfortable place in the league and so we should concentrate on building up a bit of teamwork and then strengthen as required in the summer. I am not a Worthy fan as he is too defensive but in view of costly compensation payments etc we will probably have to live with him for a bit longer. BUT we must replace the coaching staff.
Saturdays game was a classic performance where all the usual poor tactics were displayed i.e. wild high clearances from Green and the defence, passing to Huckerby when surrounded by 3/4 players, generally poor ball control, little support from midfield and full backs on the flanks. Adrian Boothroyds team had no stars etc. but they were positive, attack minded and quick thinking. As regards tactics as the match progressed Adrian won by a mile.
-
Can I make the debate simple re Worthington.
How many outfield players have passed through the ranks and established themselves in the first team since he has been in charge: Nil
How many players, who he has purchased, have improved since they have been here: Nil (and I am afraid that includes Huckerby and Ashton)
-
WBA did control the game - as most other sides have done when visiting Carrow Road. Worthy has done an excellent job in organisation and team work. The players commitment and determination cannot be faulted. However regular faults such as deep defending, poor control and distribution show no improvement and the players will eventually lose their enthusiasm by continually chasing the ball. I would suggest we need some changes in the coaching staff.
Why are Archant so cosy with the club???
in Main Discussion - Norwich City
Posted
Archant produce 3 or 4 pages every day about the Canaries so from a commecial angle it makes sense for them to be nice otherwise they would not regularly receive quotes from players and the management. I have great respect for the EDP and have been reading it for some 60 years !!! However most of what we read about Carrow Road these days is repetitive coupled with plenty of hype. I am afraid that''s the way it is with the Press these days.
Talking of the EDP I recently by chance found an old cutting dated 1st September 1983. Huge dissapointment was expressed because we lost 1 nil at home. The opponents - Liverpool - who included Dalglish, Souness, Rush, Grobbelar and I know it all Hansen.