Mr.Carrow
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Posts posted by Mr.Carrow
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It would be nice if people occasionally looked up the facts before expressing a strong opinion. An Evening News article on housing shortages in Norwich recently put the population of "greater Norwich" at around 350,000 people. This is entirely believable as the population of Norfolk was around 840,000 last time i saw it quoted. If you then consider North Suffolk,Cambridgeshire and South Lincolnshire which contain many City supporters you are looking at well over 1 million people that the club can draw from.
NCFC have ALWAYS had the potential to be a very well supported club indeed-its just the small-minded attitude of various owners and a worryingly high percentage of the support which has held the club back.
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Superb post. As far as im concerned there was no real attempt from the top down to keep the club in the Premiership, and no real attempt to get back up this season. As you have described there seems to be a real complacency at the top level within the club-the "business" as they see it is financially thriving so what incentive have they got to radically change things?
A read of Munby and Doncasters statements in the accounts is illuminating-Munby stating that anything above championship mid-table is City "punching above their weight" (highest season-tickets and crowds in the league,biggest away support,money from parachute payments,land deals,Ashton sale etc.??) and Doncaster wittering on about how expensive the overrall package is when signing a new player and is therefore a "huge risk" which the club is basically loathe to take. So that would be why we failed to sign Crouch last season when he was available for a bargain 2million and why we went into this season trying to get promoted with the smallest squad in the division (including FOUR goalkeepers)? It also explains why we are actually 3million in PROFIT on transfers since we were promoted despite 26million tv money received to date. It just doesnt even begin to add up.
Ive had a season-ticket for 15 consecutive years but i wont be renewing for next season. I am quite prepared to take the rough with the smooth but i cannot take the club not even TRYING to be successful on the pitch.
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[quote user="beelsie"]The fact that you say 20% of Brits are football fans; this may well be right with a population of over50million. The percentage of those that actually attend are more in line with my figures, hardly the ten million that you speak of, if you use the figures that are shown as attendance figures on the results pages on Sunday. The trouble is that there has been a huge fall in fan based support throughout the country for years, most would be supporters,can''t afford the gate prices let alone additional cost''s that a fan can be tempted to subscribe to at the club. I would say that in King''s Lynn area there are about two,maybe three thousand NCFC verbal supporters, the actual number going from here through the turnstyles are very few, two bus loades at most. The shirts purchased are those bought by badgered parents for their sons at Christmas. You will see more of them being worn at school or in the streets than are probably worn on match day at the city ground.
The 7 million that you talk of is not gate profits, real estate sales, and profit from catering etc and the parachute payment make up the bulk and will not be there next season. In reply you mention the 30000+ that we could achieve at City, both you and I know that without considerable extra investment in real estate to house them it is a no-no. There is also the debt currently running at I believe the last figures were over 18million. I wonder what would happen if the capital were called in against us. You and I know that the lender has drawn up an agreement and it will be worded so that if and when the debt has to be called in the lender holds all the aces, ask Leeds again. Or on seconed thoughts we could do an Ipswich and go bankrupt.
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So Beelsie, if we accept that City`s catchment figure is roughly 1 million, using your 0.1% figure City should really be attracting crowds of around 1000?! We really are over achieving arent we! I never said 20% of the population go to matches, but to achieve a crowd of 30,000 City need to attract about 2.5% of its catchment population (if you take into account away fans and exiled supporters). If you look into it i think you will find it is a very realistic figure.
So only 2 busloads attend Carrow Rd from a Norfolk town of about 50,000 people? Well if you believe this i think you must believe that Delia has been cloning Norwich fans because where on earth are they all coming from (despite the dross on the pitch)? The low point for crowds at City and accross the country was the eighties-since then they have been steadily climbing, not falling as you have stated. In the sixties and seventies City regularly used to attract crowds of 30,000 plus with a smaller population and much worse transport links. In my opinion the current demand for tickets is just a case of City`s support getting back to its natural level after the devastation of the Chase years.
The kids who badger their parents into buying them a home shirt are the same ones who will badger their parents into taking them to their first game-and then the next one if they are lucky enough to see a win! Considering the fact that i and most season-ticket holders i know dont own a shirt the 53,000 figure is astounding.
Season tickets look to be heading towards selling out again so gate receipts could be higher next season than this (price increases), we WILL have another 6million parachute payment (they last for two seasons) and should we do better than we have in this dreadful season catering and merchandise income could well be higher too. And another land deal is on the cards which a recent article stated "could be worth between 1 and 2 million per acre to the club".
Oh and Ipswich, despite having an unsecured debt roughly double that of ours have actually spent a higher proportion of their incoming transfer money this season than we have. Its called ambition rather than negative small-mindedness.
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[quote user="beelsie"]Mr Carrow. The reason I mentioned the 40000 crowd figure. Was, if you read my piece, the number of paying supporters needed to guarantee the level of income required to buy the players needed to allow us to attract the quality of footballer able to give N. City a chance to compete in the Prem and pay those inflated wages that I mentioned. Having no big money backer, this would also allow us to keep solvent. We can''t pay the wage bill now and show a profit. Look at Birmingham for one team a £42,000,0000 side and struggling. You''re assessment of the number of teams in the prem who are able to boast 30,000+ is correct, but we cannot house that number at carrow road and again would have to have the stands altered to take the extra numbers that you speak of. If they were asking McVeigh for his signature, it is obvious to me that it was needed, to give credence to the original document. To say that he had no say in the matter is not true, because if a signature from him was not necessary then there would nothing to go to the press for in the first place. The teams that you mention who have done pretty well are teams who have in the back ground wealthy subscribers ready to chip in with necessary funds. As for Norwich City being Little Norwich, financially, it is, that''s reality and the sooner we realise it the better. While the present debts, are as you say, manageable; with the sort of investments I feel are necessary to achieve the goals of the Worthy Outers, the debts incurred would soon put us in a precarious financial state. Look at Leeds. Also, I am well aware of the Population numbers in our rural area of norfolk. It stands at about 794,000 man woman and child, I''m not sure of the percentage of those that are football fans, probably, at a guess 0.1%.[/quote]
Beelsie, Mcveigh has NOT recently signed ANYTHING. The club have exercised an option to extend his contract by a year-the players signed consent was given at the start of the contract. Please see the article on the homepage, it says nothing about a signature. They went to the press with the news to placate fans who were worried that the club would not take up the option.
Bolton and Charlton DO NOT have wealthy backers. Neither now do Blackburn, i concede however that they are probably still living off the Jack Walker legacy. It is worth bearing in mind that here are plenty of clubs out there who would regard NCFC as having wealthy backers in Delia and MWJ.
Yes i am looking at Leeds. Last time i looked they still had far worse financial problems than us, yet had managed to spend significant amounts on their team with smaller crowds, no 6million parachute payment and a fraction of our 10million incoming transfer money. They currently have a very realistic chance of promotion. Its called ambition. You say we cant pay the wage bill and show a profit, yet the last accounts showed tha small matter of a 7million profit which was described as an "accounting quirk" by the club. I have yet to meet anyone who can explain to me how a 7million profit isn`t actually a 7million profit!
The population of Norfolk is currently around 840,000 (and is one of the fastest growing in the country),if you include North Suffolk which is largely Yellow and Green the figure rises to well over 1 million (with no real competion from other clubs). A recent newspaper article i read stated that 20% of Brits regard themselves as football fans. I think you may be thinking of rugby with your 0.1% figure. The club sold 53,000 of the last home shirt and have a higher figure on its "customer" database. The idea that NCFC can regularly achieve crowds well in excess of 30,000,putting it in the top 10 in the country, is now unquestionable to anyone aware of the facts. How to get into that position is of course a more difficult topic.
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[quote user="a1canary"]Oh for goodness sake - where does all this "i''ve been brought up on... fast, passing, attacking football" come from? It always gets trotted out at times like this as if we we''ve always been Real Madrid up until now.
Where were you circa 1994 to 2000 Chris?
We played passing football in our play-off and promotion seasons with NW. And we went down from the prem with NW playing passing football - win lose or draw you said. So now you must think the manager is suddenly asking the players to lump it long all the time.
When a team is lacking confidence and has a couple of supposed star players (earnie, hux) up front it''s easier to hit it up to them and hope they do the rest. It rarely works, but it''s the easy way out.
The manager has said a million times before that we "play better when we get the ball down and pass it" and if you can''t remember that you have a very selective memory.
[/quote]Yes i agree that we did try to play passing football in the Prem,however it was quite often using players who were not up to this style of football (Holt, Edworthy) ahead of more natural passing footballers (Helveg,Safri,Bentley,Mcveigh). I was a Worthy supporter until the episode last season where he came out and said "I`m playing different players so they cant moan that they werent given an opportunity at the end of the season". I believe this was before Bolton at home where Safri,Helveg and Bentley ripped them apart with some superb passing football, and the team proceeded on a run which nearly kept us up. The sad truth is that Worthington belatedly changed the team not because he had faith that technically better players would play better football and improve results, but to stop them moaning. The same attitude is abundantly clear this season with Mcveigh (7 goals and around 8 assists?) regularly criticised and dropped in favour of Hughes (1 goal and 1 assist i believe).
Worthington has had 5 years to build this side, it is HIS team. Is it full of natural passing footballers? Of the regulars i would say Drury and Safri are the only two. The obvious comeback is "we dont have the money to buy that type of player", however Ipswich and Preston are making a far better fist of it with far less resources. Ever wondered why Etuhu struggled to get in a "passing" side like Preston? Or why Hughes was boo`d at cultured Reading? Does it not make sense, if you are building a passing side, to buy players who are comfortable with that style of football?? Is it really a suprise that the defence relies on the "hoof" tactic when only one of our midfielders is comfortable with the ball at his feet in a tight spot? If Worthington has been trying to build a side to play cultured,passing fottball he has failed abysmally and should GO.
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Well you talk about a low level of debate Beelsie and then get several things totally wrong. Mcveigh has not "signed" a new contract, the club have excercised a previously agreed 1 year extension-ie. as Mcveigh agreed to it when the contract was drawn up he has no say in the matter.
Your point about 40,000 crowds-as has already been pointed out only 7 clubs can manage this in the Prem. and there are several clubs (Bolton,Blackburn,Charlton,Middlesbrough) who have done pretty well despite frequently being unable to sell out grounds of a similar size to ours. The old chestnut about catchment area is often brought up by people who assume that a largely rural area must by definition have a tiny population. Do you actually know how many people live in City`s main catchment area of Norfolk and North Suffolk (although thousands come from further afield)? You may be very suprised. Judging by recent levels of demand i believe City could comfortably average well over 30,000 in the Prem. which would put us in the top 10 in the country in terms of support. But we`re still "little Norwich" arent we?!
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Well i dont really know where to start Chicken, your argument is so full of holes it is unbelievable. I am afraid i dont know how to do a link but an article i just found on the EDP website states that the first share issue raised 2.4 million, the second (around the time of the Huckerby signing) 1.5 million with 500,000 being Delias money.
As far as the debt issue is concerned the club have catagorically stated that the Prem money was NOT used to pay significant sums back. When the first phase land deal was completed we were told it was to "pay for the new South Stand", yet the 6.5million from the land was payable over 3 years and the stand was paid for out of the restructured securitisation loan of 18million payable over (i believe) 25 years?? The debt is used as a massive scare tactic to placate the fans but the fact is it is an extremely manageable figure given that it is secured against assets (unlike Ipswich`s) and costs only around 1 million per year to service.
I think you well know that most of the clubs you mention have had horrendous financial problems in recent years and have none of the land deals (another one in the offing BTW) and Premiership money we are still enjoying. It is very interesting to note that Doncaster recently stated that banks would no longer lend money to fund player purchases. Within a few weeks Ipswich had "restructured" their debt to release money for team strengthening. Where theres a will theres a way perhaps?
I wonder if pushing the boat out and signing Crouch near the start of last season would have given us the extra point needed to stay up?? He nearly kept Southampton up and even then they made more money on him than we did on Ashton. I am sick of hearing that NCFC are following the Charlton model. Charlton and the likes of W.Brom STRENGTHENED when they got relegated and bounced straight back. Remember W.Brom outbidding us seemingly for every player we were in for a few seasons back? It is not the Charlton model to spend weeks haggling over bog-average players when better ones are being snapped up by clubs willing to go the extra mile, nor to go into the season with the smallest squad in the division (with 4 goalkeepers!) and a left back playing in central midfield! That is just shear complacency.
This is by a country mile the most lucrative period in the clubs history and as i have pointed out the clubs debt position is extremely sound and underpinned by valuable land. I maintain that within this context the clubs "efforts" in investing in a squad strong enough to bounce straight back have been an utter joke.
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There are plenty of highly-rated up and coming managers around who would see NCFC as a massive opportunity. Personally i believe that an ambitious board would be able to tempt Boothroyd back from Watford if they fail to get promoted. The fact is NCFC HAVE got the potential to be a top 10 Premiership club (look at the amazing season ticket sales)-there is no way Watford have.
As regards the board it seems you have swallowed their attempts to airbrush certain facts out of history. Huckerby was paid for out of the SHARE ISSUE. And Ashton was only signed because the club had 1.2million more than budgetted for because fans didnt redeem the preference B shares. The board had previously refused to free up 2million th sign Peter Crouch, and instead sanctioned the signing of Gary Doherty to play up front!
Since promotion the club is actually around 3million IN PROFIT in the transfer market. That is despite 26million in tv money and parachute payments, 1.5million G.Watling written off loan money,1.1million from the hotel deal, continueing money from the phase 1 land deal, record season ticket/merchandising/catering sales etc. Despite all this we have carried one of the smallest squads in the league (with 4 goalkeepers!) which has regularly been hit hard by injuries and `splashed out` on largely average journeymen.
Ambition?? What an utter joke.
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I think some people are taking this issue way too seriously. Most Norwich fans have friends/family/workmates who support Ipswich and other disliked teams, do people honestly think they are treated with hatred and abuse in ordinary life? The fact is that for 90 minutes during an important match the rules change a little bit- its what gives football a bit of an `edge`and makes it far more exciting and popular than more sedate sports like rugby and cricket.In my experience some of the rowdiest people inside the ground can often turn out to be some of the most pleasant when you meet them in the pub afterwards. How often do you hear of people being injured at football matches these days? Hardly ever,and the few that have been are nearly always the ones who have been looking for trouble.
Talking of bigotted opinions, i think branding someone brainless or a neanderthal just because you dont like the way they react to a situation during a football match is right up there with the worst.
I sat in the Churchmans for the away derby and managed to limit myself to a sly grin when Huckerby scored right in front of me. Had i been unable to control myself however, and had received a torrent of abuse or even a smack on the nose, i would have expected it and i wouldnt be whining about how terrible the human race is. Its the way football is and i,and millions of others are quite happy with it.
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This post really, really depresses me.
It shows all that is still so wrong in football. So what if it''s an opposition supporter, so what if they''re (even worse - shock horror) an Ipswich fan?
What makes football so special that it allows for all the stupid, bigoted opinions aired above - because it''s football? That in itself is a worrying commentary on the state of the game. Would it have made a difference if the Ipswich supporter had been a, say, Plymouth fan...?
I think that some people posting on this thread need to take a long hard look at themselves. I''ve sat in plenty of away ends - and endured plenty of good natured ribbing but have NEVER been abused or felt unsafe.
Grow up people.
I think some people are taking this issue way too seriously. Most Norwich fans have friends/family/workmates who support Ipswich and other disliked teams, do people honestly think they are treated with hatred and abuse in ordinary life? The fact is that for 90 minutes during an important match the rules change a little bit- its what gives football a bit of an `edge`and makes it far more exciting and popular than more sedate sports like rugby and cricket.
In my experience some of the rowdiest people inside the ground can often turn out to be some of the most pleasant when you meet them in the pub afterwards. How often do you hear of people being injured at football matches these days? Hardly ever,and the few that have been are nearly always the ones who have been looking for trouble.
Talking of bigotted opinions, i think branding someone brainless or a neanderthal just because you dont like the way they react to a situation during a football match is right up there with the worst.
I sat in the Churchmans for the away derby and managed to limit myself to a sly grin when Huckerby scored right in front of me. Had i been unable to control myself however, and had received a torrent of abuse or even a smack on the nose, i would have expected it and i wouldnt be whining about how terrible the human race is. Its the way football is and i,and millions of others are quite happy with it.
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Good post, completely agree. Come on folks, keep this near the top of the board where people can see it. -
Not signing Crouch was the start of the rot for me. From then on all the signals sent out were that the Premiership season was a token effort only. I mean, Doherty starting up front for several games, Jarvis starting on right wing at Middlesborough, the Holt debacle....The lessons were then spectacularly proved not to have been learned in the close season-spending weeks quibling over a few 100k for Andy Hughes whilst better players were being snapped up by our rivals,starting the season with 18 outfield Pro`s when Worthy had stated he needed 5 more players than last season to cover for inevitable injuries, Charlton starting the season in central midfield.....Farcical is too kind a word.
In the accounts Doncaster whined on about what a "huge risk"it was to spend money on a player these days so i can only surmise that the `plan` for this season was not to take any risks,try to scrape by with what we had and try to patch up any problems with loans. How inspiring. Well Mr.Doncaster and other board members, you have now discovered the inherent risk in not taking risks in football ie.,a sense of drift,a crisis of confidence throughout the club and no real belief that the people at the top have any clue how to get back to the top flight. Still we keep being told we are only `little Norwich` (with the highest gates in the league and 16th highest in the country) so maybe all this is to be expected? At least the board have their wholly owned subsiduary property development company `Kerrison Holdings` to take their minds off the current problems eh?
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[quote user="rieg77"]and then presumably continue to moan about the lack of ambition in the club from your amrchair.....perhaps not appreciating that the success of the club is dependant on the revenue it generates (i.e. season ticket sales etc). I do not see what benefit you expect to bestow upon the club by no longer contributing to its finances.[/quote]
Current record number of Season tickets (5 million+) parachute payments (6.5 million) plus G.Watling loan money and hotel money (2.5 million). Current transfer balance 2 million profit-roughly the same as that lot down the road who are verging on another financial collapse. Prudence with errr.....no i cant remember the next bit....
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Regarding crowds i think you will find that they were pretty much declining throughout the Chase years (despite the success) and have increased every season since, until the major catalyst that was the playoff final. I think there is a fairly obvious conclusion to come to.
As gtg pointed out City used to regularly get crowds bigger than we do now and i think that we have recently seen a combination of a gradual return of thousands who were disillusioned under the last regime plus a very positive response to the family friendly policies the club has followed.
One of the main arguments against the previous regime (remember Chase stated that City could never average more than 20,000 people per game) was that if the club was well run,open,fan friendly and most of all positive and ambitious the potential was there for very significant growth in support. IMO this has been proved correct. I just hope that the ultra conservative policies the board have been following recently don`t undo all the good work.
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Well i`m very pleased with that. Didn`t realise he was only 23, thats younger than Francis was when we signed him and exactly the kind of age range we should have have been snapping up in the last year and a half- taking advantage of our higher profile- instead of going for unmotivated journeymen. When i`ve seen him his similarity to Francis as a player (hopefully not as a person though) has been uncanny, he seems to also have the Francis knack of `switching off`at times which is probably why he hasn`t moved to a higher level. Hopefully though as he`s still young this tendency will diminish.
Etuhu and Safri in the middle with Hughes as back up, now that sounds MUCH better. Still no right winger though and the board HAS to find money to further strengthen our pitiful squad by at least four more players if they can be at all serious about fully backing the manager. Don`t forget we could well lose 2 of our best performers (Safri,Davenport) soon. Etuhu is a very good start though IMO.
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A very interesting post kdncfc. Creative Midfielder, the club have told us several times that the fee agreed for Morrison was "nowhere near" the 2million stated by Birmingham-it seems to have been a ruse to encourage a higher bid to come in. The person who runs another forum (ncfc-fans i think) posted a few weeks ago an account of a phone conversation with Doncaster in which he was told that had we signed Morrison, a player would have had to be sold in January to cover it. Obviously this cannot be presented as absolute fact, but the post was linked to other message boards and the consensus was it was genuine. I also remember that when Jonsson was sold Worthy stated it was "to free up money to bring other players in". Yes, the club always stated there was `a budget` for new signings but frankly `a budget` could be 5 million or 5 quid couldn`t it? Remember Wayne Thomas (good player) choosing the mighty Burnley over us? I hardly think we pushed the boat out to get him did we?
Kdncfc i would encourage you to keep asking probing questions-not many other fans seem to be bothering-as it seems the answers you have recieved are unconvincing to say the very least. So we sell a player and get him off the wage bill, but the fee we recieve has to pay the fee for his replacement AND his wages....I think i`m starting to see where its all gone wrong now!
As i asked on another thread-why has the main `pruduct`of the business been allowed to become so appallingly weak in by far the most financially rewarding period in the clubs history? Why,when we have the highest gates in the division (16th highest in the country) are we outspent by clubs like Burnley and Sheff.U. who dont even have the 6 million parachute payment we enjoy?
I sincerely hope the spotlight is gradually turning to where it should be amidst the current fiasco.
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I must admit Jimbo when i wrote that first post mentioning Worthy`s desire for 5 additional squad members on top of replacing any departing players i wasn`t entirely sure my memory was serving me correctly-it all seems pretty hard to believe now doesn`t it? However there was a link this morning on wotb to the actual article in which Worthy is quoted saying exactly that.
Our starting 11 with Dav and Marney IS certainly a top 6 one but in this rough and ready division having between 4 and 8 players out injured at any one time should be expected and planned for but the squad has been appallingly weak right from the word go (smallest in the Championship in fact). Anyone who seriously thought we had the strongest squad in the league needs their head testing.
The fact that this vital subject was apparently not even raised at the AGM is extraordinary and worryingly seems to indicate that the small-minded and complacent attitude of the board is reflected by a number of the clubs most dedicated supporters. If the club cannot afford to spend a bean on the team after the huge bonus tv payments,share money,record season tickets,G.Watling money,land deal money etc.etc. it begs the question what position would the club be in if we hadn`t been promoted? Would we have gone bust? I thought the board were supposed to be financially astute?
Im afraid the endless "Charlton model" statements have become an utterly meaningless platitude. The last club to do this were West Brom and they spent good money when they came down (Gaardsoe,Hulse,Purse,O`conner,Horsefield,Koumas) and had a squad at least 10 stronger than ours. Our board are trying to wing it on a pittance and it was NEVER going to work.
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[quote]Spot on Mr Carrow (are you still in the building?). Also cast your mind back to the City teams of the early to mid nineties when we were a selling club but because of this were willing to speculate o...[/quote]
He he, i`m not sure why the club keep telling everyone which stand i`m in, very disconcerting....!
Back to the serious stuff. Totally agree about Crow but you have to wonder whether Worthy really knew how weak a squad he would be going into the season with when he released all those players. To be honest I watched pre-season unfold with increasing horror-remember the club haggling for for weeks over a few 100k for Andy Hughes? I kept telling myself it was a smokescreen and just a warm-up before the real signings came in (Koumas? Sidwell?). Then Francis went and i thought "well the club cant make out they cant afford a decent replacement". Oh dear. Utter shambles.
On the thread titled "Prudence with ambition?" there are some excellent points made about the board and the chilling spectre of Chase is raised. I sincerely hope they will never get that bad but some of the comments made recently (since promotion in fact) have been quite alarming. Add to Doncasters one above, Delia`s "we`re just a little club, we`re little Norwich" last season and Munby`s, again in the accounts, "If our destiny were tied to current finance, we would settle somewhere in the middle of the Championship". Thats right Mr.Munby, the Championship is just awash with teams who`ve just recieved a 20million bonus with 12million more to come over the next 2 seasons,who can sell 20,000 season tickets and sell out a 26,000 stadium every game,isn`t it??! He also states that we have been "punching above our weight" in recent seasons. We currently have the 16th highest gates in the country and would be higher still if we could fit more in, so based on level of support we should be a Premiership club. Anyone think the board are a teensy bit scared of this idea?
The club has grown enormously since the last regime was ousted, which should come as no suprise as the potential has always been there, but IMO the mentality of the people in charge has not grown with it.
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Well before the start of the season Worthy stated that the squad would require 5 additions and anyone leaving would have to be replaced, citing the greater number of games to be played and greater likelyhood of injurys. At the time i was very encouraged by this statement, but why on earth did we end up going into the season with a much smaller squad (one of the smallest in the Championship) including 4 keepers and several kids the manager is loathe to play? We actually started the season with a left-back in central midfield.
I dont believe for a second that Worthy had an abundance of money but refused to spend it, IMO the board at some point after this statement must have taken him aside and told him that he would have to make do with a skeleton squad. The biggest mistake Worthy made at this point was to go back totally on his earlier statement and declare himself "happy with the squad i have got" "wealth of midfielders"etc. when it was utterly obvious that such a paper thin squad could NEVER mount a serious promotion challenge.
The fact is that despite 26million in tv money and parachute payments,the share money,hotel money and write-off of G.Watlings loan the board have only managed to free up 3million in transfer fees (if you take into account incoming fees-Jonsson,Francis etc.) since promotion. Our transfer `balance` this season is almost exactly the same as ipswich`s and we all know what an appalling financial position they are in. Is this prudence? I think a better phrase would be "gross negligence" in allowing the major "product" of your business to become so weak in the most financially rewarding period of the clubs history.
And before people reply bleating on about debts, we have no money etc. perhaps they should ask themselves why the board saw fit to spend another 1 million on even more land not so long ago? Hardly the actions of a club desperately hoarding every last penny.
It is interesting that Doncasters statement in the accounts asserts that "any investment in any promising player represents a huge financial outlay and,therefore,a huge risk.", yet i have never heard any board member mention the inherent risk in NOT investing in promising players. How much of a risk would it have been to have signed Crouch for 2 million at the start of last season? We knew he was a good player, he liked it here, and when he moved to Southampton he nearly kept them up and was subsequently sold for a 5 million profit. The balance of risk/reward was very obviously favourable in that instance yet as usual the powers that be took the ultra cautous/negative stance that it might not work out. This stance has now been carried on into this season and the prevailing mentality that "spending money on the team to try to be promoted is a huge risk" is now "risking" relegation and the club capitulating.
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[quote]on pecentage per population we are probably one of the best supported clubs in the country, thats why all this small club talk really gets on my nerves[/quote]
I dont really agree with that Ricky. I`ve often heard City described as a `small City club` but this doesn`t even come close to telling the whole story. City are actually a regional club attracting support from all over East Anglia. Norfolk alone has a population of 820,000 people and if you add on the Lowestoft/North Suffolk area which is largely yellow and green the figure is around 1 million.
If you compare our situation to that of,say,the Sheffield clubs of course Sheffield is a much bigger city than Norwich (1 million+ people), however this has to support 2 high profile clubs and they have at least some competition from Rotherham,Doncaster,Barnsley and Leeds just up the road. We have no competition for 40 miles to the south, and 70 miles to the west.
I have not been at all suprised by the surge of support over recent years and always maintained during the Chase years that an ambitious,forward thinking club who actually encouraged support rather than alienating it would see a steady increase in gates. Its good to see people are finally realising the clubs potential.
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This is the same board that has valiantly managed to free up a whole 3 million pounds to spend overall on transfer fees (taking into account player sales) since our promotion to the premier league which has so far been worth 26 million in t.v. and parachute payments. Our spending and income on transfers this season is almost exactly the same as a club down the road still teetering on the brink of financial collapse and with no parachute payment. At a time when we could have been using our higher resources and profile to bolster the squad with the best up-and-coming players around can anyone really say there has been a genuine drive from the top to see us bounce straight back up? Haggling for about six weeks over a few hundred thousand for our `star` summer signing Andy Hughes whilst Sheff.U were snapping up Iffil and Cardiff Koumas? Being apparently content to start the season with an ageing left-back in central midfield and a squad of 22 which includes 4 keepers and 3 kids the manager is loath to play?
This isn`t a post supporting Worthy. Serious doubts set in after the Safri/Holt debacle last season and things have deteriorated since, but people need to look at the bigger picture rather than heaping the blame on one person and making out that if he is removed everything will be fine.
Where has the second part of the "prudence with ambition" mantra gone?
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Good to see a post looking at the bigger picture ncfc4prem. I agree about the boards approach last season and i have to say i backed them up as i was convinced that they were hoarding a good war chest to have real good go at going straight back up. The reality is that despite the 35m.that promotion was supposed to be worth, we spent little on the squad last year and are actually 2m.up on transfers this year-almost exactly the same as a certain club down the road who are way more in debt than us and have no 6m.parachute payment!!
We have one of the best first 11`s in this division but we DO NOT have one of the best squads. Anyone could see at the start of the season that a couple of injury`s in defence or midfield would cause serious problems. You can get away with playing exceptional players out of position, if however you are basing a supposed drive for promotion around average journeymen played out of position you have no chance.
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Well my admittedly perfunctory reading of the accounts suggests that the vast majority of expenditure on pitch/facilities etc. IS included in the 28.3m outgoings figure. There is a mention of some money outstanding for the infill, which i assume is being paid off by the hotel money.
Sorry but i cannot accept a profit of 7.7m being an `accounting quirk` when there doesnt seem to be any indication of what this money has been allocated for. I hope someone will ask some probing questions at the AGM because we must be the only club in the country who can make an enormous profit and still maintain the "we`re still really skint,honest" line which is frankly,starting to wear very thin when you consider the paltry team investment before the transfer window closed.
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WAY too much fuss is made over the clubs level of debt. People need to realise that these loans are secured against fixed assets (land owned by club etc.) therefore are much more favourable than alot of other clubs (eg.Ipswich) who have loans borrowed against unpredictable future income. 14m payable over 15 years is nothing to worry about.
I admit i am no expert but i fail to see how a 9m pre-tax profit can simply be written off as an `accounting quirk`. The fact is the club received far more money than it spent last season and i cannot see any evidence of substantial future commitments having been made which the profit has to cover. Beware spin.
Any financial experts out there willing to give their run-down of the accounts? I am particularly interested in Doncasters statement that "the Group still has substantial holdings of land around Carrow Rd. During financial year 2005/06 we hope that our property dealings will continue to make a contribution to the clubs financial health." Obviously the recent hotel announcement is connected to this statement but i wonder what else is in the pipeline? Just how much land does the club own?
it would be criminal to let this golden opportunity go.
in Main Discussion - Norwich City
Posted
[quote user="Marty"]I don''t understand, I thought we "gave it a shot" in the big league too, in fact we were close to making it. Is it my imagination or did we spend a fair bit of cash on players that year? I don''t see much difference in circumstances to be honest.[/quote]
We sold Francis for 2 million at the start of the Prem season and we didnt spend a great deal over and above that figure. If you include the Rob Green money the club is around 5 million IN PROFIT on transfer deals since promotion. 30 million in tv money and we are still a selling club?? Unfortunately if people continue acting like ignorant muppets then the board will continue to treat people as such.......