Defensive Partnership Stats

[Ray 111]

Just taken a look at the stats from the Latest News and ignoring the 7 minutes at Ipswich, our CB''s have perfromed as follows;

Turner - Played 22, conceded @ 1.32/game

Martin - Played 18, conceded @ 1.06/gme

Cuellar - Played 7, conceded @ 1.29/game

Hooiveld - Played 6, conceded @ 1.50/game

Bennett - played 1, conceded @ 2.00/game

Take from that what you will but on this evidence it appears Martin & Cuellar have performed best. If, (and of course it is an ''if'') SB comes back in who should be his partner?

[Tetteys Jig 851]

What we can deduce mainly from the stats I saw is that we should be playing a mobile CB and a unit.

Basically, one of Martin or Bassong and one of Bennett, Cuellar or Turner.

[ZLF 335]

Adding in the points per game won changes the dynamic a bit

Turner - Played 22, conceded @ 1.32/game 1.5 pts per game

Martin - Played 18, conceded @ 1.06/gme 1.5 ppg

Cuellar - Played 7, conceded @ 1.29/game 1.9 ppg

Hooiveld - Played 6, conceded @ 1.50/game 2.0 ppg

Bennett - played 1, conceded @ 2.00/game 0.0 ppg

Hooiveld despite conceding most goals gained us promotion winning points and team results are also better with cuellar.

An alternative view is how we perform without a player at cb...

Turner - Not played 5 conceded @ 1.0/game 2pts per game

Martin - Not Played 15, conceded @ 1.7/gme 1.1 ppg

Cuellar - Not Played 7, conceded @ 1.3/game 1.2 ppg

Hooiveld - Not Played 6, conceded @ 1.20/game 1.2 ppg

The screaming conclusion is that we should not be playing Turner this season, more goals conceded and fewest points gained while we improve markedly without him on both.

Based on this we should stick with cuellar & Martin in the middle.

If Bassong is to come back then it should be with one of them.

Perhaps a back four of Martin Cuellar Bassong Garrido will work.

[Ray 111]

I like your style Zipper, thanks for the extra insights.

[Branston Pickle 4,150]

Although there are some interesting stats, you can''t really tell much from them - there''s no accounting for who games were against (eg top/bottom) or where (home or away - you may expect to have more to do away from home).

IMO, Jos was pretty decent, Cuellar hasn''t done too badly but both seem to have been scapegoats; one certainty is that we desperately need to find on a defensive set up that works, as have shipped far too many soft goals. If this means SB coming back in then fine by me; one thing he is adept at is getting in late blocks that others seem incapable of.

I have to say one other thing we''ve not had anywhere near enough of is a goal threat from set pieces - I think I''m right that we''ve had only 2 goals from our cb''s this season. That may have as much to do with the all-to-often poor delivery, but clearly needs work - there''s a lot of goals we''re missing out on. I got the distinct impression that Brentford knew we were crap at corners on Sat as left 3 men up each time - we''re lucky of we leave 1!!!

[GJP 79]

How about looking at some defensive performance stats for individuals?

Averages tackles:

Cuellar 3.7
Hooiveld 1.8
Turner 1.5
Martin 0.8

Interceptions:

Turner 2.6
Hooiveld 2
Cuellar 1.7
Martin 1.6

Clearances:

Cuellar 8.7
Turner 6.6
Hooiveld 4.3
Martin 4.1

Blocks:

Hooiveld 1
Turner 0.6
Cuellar 0.6
Martin 0.4

[GJP 79]

Also, Whittaker beats Olsson on 3 of the 4 categories above and he also averages more tackles and interceptions than Martin.

 

And yet he''s meant to be a lot worse than both of them. Hmm.

[GJP 79]

I forgot to add aerial duels:

Cuellar 3.6
Hooiveld 3.5
Turner 3.4
Martin 1.8

(Whittaker 2, Olsson 1)

[ZLF 335]

Excellent stuff

[Katie Borkins 1]

What about time spent in own half versus number of vowels in opposition team name?

[GJP 79]

[quote user="ZippersLeftFoot"]Excellent stuff[/quote]

I think it''s interesting that Olsson and Martin have more or less the weakest numbers for defensive stats yet they are the two that you know are going to be in the team every week.

 

 

[Ray 111]

The thrust of the post was to look at our CB pairings and to judge how they played as a unit.

It’s not dissimilar to strike force pairings, you could pick two of our greatest ever goal scorers throughout history (club & country) but you would not necessarily select them in the same team, insomuch they both would need a foil to play alongside them. In other words you would need players to perform specific roles to get the best out of each other. A typical example may be a tall physical striker who acts as a target man and nods down to another striker running off him.

The same scenario can be found all over the pitch and in the case of CB pairings, you may well have one designated as the ball winner in the air whilst the other one designated as the ‘space’ marker/blocker and potential sweeper. Bobby Moore and Jack Charlton immediately spring to mind. Often Charlton could be seen coming off the pitch battered bruised and covered in mud from head to toe whilst Moore looked like he’d been for a Sunday stroll (or is that my memory playing tricks?).

Either way we need a top and consistent pairing, Ramsey didn’t split his two up until Charlton retired, so we need to do the same, however we may have more of a dilemna as RM would also probably be first choice RB, if he was to be considered the sweeper option in our pairing?

[barclay_boy111 0]

[quote user="ZippersLeftFoot"]Adding in the points per game won changes the dynamic a bit

Turner - Played 22, conceded @ 1.32/game 1.5 pts per game

Martin - Played 18, conceded @ 1.06/gme 1.5 ppg

Cuellar - Played 7, conceded @ 1.29/game 1.9 ppg

Hooiveld - Played 6, conceded @ 1.50/game 2.0 ppg

Bennett - played 1, conceded @ 2.00/game 0.0 ppg

Hooiveld despite conceding most goals gained us promotion winning points and team results are also better with cuellar.

An alternative view is how we perform without a player at cb...

Turner - Not played 5 conceded @ 1.0/game 2pts per game

Martin - Not Played 15, conceded @ 1.7/gme 1.1 ppg

Cuellar - Not Played 7, conceded @ 1.3/game 1.2 ppg

Hooiveld - Not Played 6, conceded @ 1.20/game 1.2 ppg

The screaming conclusion is that we should not be playing Turner this season, more goals conceded and fewest points gained while we improve markedly without him on both.

Based on this we should stick with cuellar & Martin in the middle.

If Bassong is to come back then it should be with one of them.

Perhaps a back four of Martin Cuellar Bassong Garrido will work.[/quote]

Been saying it all season! He''s a very poor defender yet people call him a rock?!

[barclay_boy111 0]

[quote user="ZippersLeftFoot"]Adding in the points per game won changes the dynamic a bit

Turner - Played 22, conceded @ 1.32/game 1.5 pts per game

Martin - Played 18, conceded @ 1.06/gme 1.5 ppg

Cuellar - Played 7, conceded @ 1.29/game 1.9 ppg

Hooiveld - Played 6, conceded @ 1.50/game 2.0 ppg

Bennett - played 1, conceded @ 2.00/game 0.0 ppg

Hooiveld despite conceding most goals gained us promotion winning points and team results are also better with cuellar.

An alternative view is how we perform without a player at cb...

Turner - Not played 5 conceded @ 1.0/game 2pts per game

Martin - Not Played 15, conceded @ 1.7/gme 1.1 ppg

Cuellar - Not Played 7, conceded @ 1.3/game 1.2 ppg

Hooiveld - Not Played 6, conceded @ 1.20/game 1.2 ppg

The screaming conclusion is that we should not be playing Turner this season, more goals conceded and fewest points gained while we improve markedly without him on both.

Based on this we should stick with cuellar & Martin in the middle.

If Bassong is to come back then it should be with one of them.

Perhaps a back four of Martin Cuellar Bassong Garrido will work.[/quote]

Been saying it all season! He''s a very poor defender yet people call him a rock?!

[GJP 79]

Clearly the "thrust" of the post was to sing up about Russell Martin again, Ray.

You''d have never started it if your chosen stats didn''t help you promote Martin.

[Ray 111]

GJP,

You obviously think you know me and the values and beliefs I hold better than I do. Whereas I have no idea who or what you are, other than you are not a fan of RM, a view you are entitled to without being mocked by others. That''s my opinion, yours it appears, is different.

Yes I happen to think RM is one of our best players, you don''t, but I''ve never sunk so low as to get personal about it, although you have presented me with many opportunities, including the point you were trying to make on this post

In the original post I made no comment other than if we are going to select our CB''s based on which pairing concedes the least goals then it would be Cuellar and Martin but also asked the question "who should be Bassong''s partner" without giving an opinion of my own.

My post was presented in a matter of fact way based on an article provided by the Pink ''un, as far as I can see you went ''searching'' for stats to make your point.

I happen to think my appreciation and understanding of the game is at a reasonably high level, you may think the same of yours. Well good luck to you, however I would appreciate it if you could refrain from getting personal about my opinions.

[River End Canary 0]

RM is a reasonable championship defender on his day but a dreadful captain. Would have him at right back with Seb and Turner in the middle and olsson on the other side. Our best formation

[ZLF 335]

Ah Canary - such fond memories. You DO love your nostalgia dont you. Remind me how that 4 worked so well last year? and 3 quarters of it has done such sterling service again this year despite facing much inferior opposition.

Definition of madness? Persisting with the same while expecting a different out come.

Little difference between Martin & Whits at rb; Olsson & Turner out, based on the data on this thread and this seasons committed performances.

[GJP 79]

Ray, the reason I brought the other stats into it was to give us some other angles to look at when considering CB partnerships.

 

As for Martin...go back a few years on here and you''ll find plenty of posts from me on how well he was doing for us. Infact in his earlier days at the club you''ll probably find several posts where I defend him.

 

But when you consider last season, this season, look at the all the goals we let in, our often ropey looking defence and the lower numbers Martin and Olsson have for defence related stats have in comparison to others I just wonder if there isn''t scope to try a defence without one or both of them to see how we get on.

 

 

[Ray 111]

GJP,

I accept totally your point about the number of goals we have conceded over the last two seasons, but very few of them can be laid directly at RM''s feet, accepting of course all defenders will make ocassional errors.

The fact is this season we have conceded less goals when he was playing at CB, not to say he should be Bassong''s partner if Seb is selected, as I actually think he is our best RB.

IMO he reads the game well and often closes down an opposition attacking option by positioning rather than tackling but this doesn''t appear in stats.

We do need to find a settled halfway decent defensive set up though, however I also believe our defence is often left exposed by our midfield''s lack of tracking and in some cases by our winger''s losing sight of their defensive duties.

All eleven have both attacking and defensive responsibilities.

[GJP 79]

I think if his positioning and reading of the game is that good (compared to those around him) you''d have to ask why Turner, Hooiveld, Whittaker and Cuellar all average more interceptions per game.

 

I mean I know it isn''t an exact science but intercepting the ball often goes along with reading the play and your positioning.

 

I do agree with what you say about the midfield exposing the defence, that''s long been a problem but also there comes a point where you have to say that defenders defend. And none of ours have done a really good job of that for a long time now.

 

 

[Ray 111]

GJP,

The positioning stops the oppo making the pass, hence no interception and no tackle, or less anway.

[hogesar 10,765]

To be fair, I didn''t realise that Garrido was recovering from a groin injury, if he''s fit i''d like to see him play instead of Olsson.

As for RM, it''s a toughie. People say we don''t have a leader but he''s probably the closest we''ve got. That''s not really a compliment to him, either.

I think it''s got to the stage where it''s worth giving Bassong another go so long as the majority of the squad are happy with it. Who partners him? Not sure.

I''d pick RM ahead of Whittaker at right back, but not sure i''d pick RM ahead of Turner at CB.

[King Klose 0]

Olsson - Bassong - Cueller - Martin

[Yellowbeagle 0]

Stats, just got to love the pointlessness of the majority of them in isolation. They don''t tell you how strong the opposition was, where on the pitch the incidents took place or was the players general play/positioning detrimental to the team. Abit like Tettey''s high passing percent that''s being wheeled out on some threads, now I like Tettey and think he''s one of our best players, but the guy passes simple 9/10, he is not a strong passer of the ball.