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lake district canary

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[quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="morty"]Sorry but some of you people truly have lost what football is about. I''ll take getting up early on a Saturdayand travelling hundreds of miles with good friends to see a game, over sat in my armchair anyday.

Like I said, its your choice how you use your leisure time and money.[/quote]

What "football is all about" is the club, the fans that go to games, the

people of Norfolk who can''t get to games but are proud of and take an

interest in the club, those that used to go but can''t anymore through age or ill health - and the many people around the country and the world who come from Norfolk originally or who have adopted the club for some reason - presumably because it is such a great club to support.  So to  pretend that the only thing that matters is the few thousand that go to games is narrow minded in the extreme.  There are thousands of people who would have watched the game live last Saturday had it been available.  It wouldn''t have stopped those who were able to go to the game going -  and it is of course true that the best thing about football is going to matches.  We live in a world of instant accessibility to nearly everything - except football, which is rationed, put together into a package that suits only the biggest clubs and served up cold and without regard to match going supporters who are inconvenienced no end by the ridiculous scheduling of matches. 

I''ll go to every match I can and enjoy it - the rest of the time I would like to be able to view the whole match either live on screen or after the event - and am prepared to pay for the privelege. In that regard I''m a potential "customer" - as are many others. Where is the "product"? 

[/quote]Not true. The vast majority of artistic events, such as plays and concerts, and the vast majority of sporting events are not available. For very good reasons, to see them you have to go to them. If you could watch plays and concerts and the like at home then that would damage or even kill off such live entertainment, and the same general danger applies to sport. No-one has even explained to me why football, at least below the Premier League, should be should be any different.

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I''ll point out that LDC is correct that all these things he wants are possible on a technological level.
Bethnal, Fibre means that we do have the internet speeds to broadcast live streaming. However, there''s still plenty of exchanges in and out of norfolk sitting on ADSL (not even ADSL 2) and certainly people in villages etc can be limited to under 2mbps broadband. So not everyone would be able to access it.
But like Purple says, I have absolutely 100% conviction in my view this should, and will not, happen. Because it shouldn''t. Like any other live entertainment. Most of it, you pay to go see it. The experience. People say it won''t harm attendances. Maybe not for us - but have you not seen other clubs? They struggle to fill 75% capacity, in the CHAMPIONSHIP. Which someone said before is the 5th most watched league in football. Now do we go down to League One? How many won''t bother turning up on a rainy day if they can stream it for half the price?
I''m personally delighted that the only way LDC can watch us, is by going to games. It''s how it should be. And the club even offer exiles the opportunity to listen to commentary for a couple quid a week, along with much more audio and video content. An absolute bargain and if I was an exile it would have been my first purchase.
But probably because I see myself as a fan and can look beyond ''the product''. I''m not just a bloody customer.

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I did post earlier that I thought that there were plans to enable live streaming of away games back to the away teams home ground, now found the article that I have posted a link to below.We had the opportunity to do a reciprocal deal with Blackburn earlier in the season, however NCFC vetoed it for reasons unknown.Live streaming, as it says in the article would, at the present be restricted to midweek games only.IMO pay per view for every Premiership game will come in the not too distant future, pushed by the top 4/5 teams who are after a greater share of tv monies. 

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/rovers/news/11419596.Norwich_City_refuse_Blackburn_Rovers__request_to_beam_back_tonight_s_Carrow_Road_clash_to_Ewood_Park/?action=complain&cid=13091375

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Sky tried Pay Per View a few years ago I seem to remember...

they aren''t doing it now.. I guess it wasn''t workable.

stream for free online, get sponsored games, huge ad campaigns etc... it can work

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[quote user="PurpleCanary"]If you could watch plays and concerts and the like at home then that would damage or even kill off such live entertainment, and the same general danger applies to sport.[/quote]Perhaps you can explain then PC exactly WHY the premiership isn''t falling to it''s knees over catastrophical attendance drops because of the massive availability of streams showing pretty much every live match available?The truth is that attendances across pretty much all of the leagues have remained relatively stable BAR the Champs, which has mainly been linked to high ticket prices in relation to the football and quality of opposition on offer. People will pay £40 to watch Norwich vs Chelsea, they won''t pay £40 to watch Millwall vs Rotherham...The sheer fact that you can get a live stream for pretty much any premiership match is proof enough IMHO that making live matches available through legitimate channels (be this terrestrial tv, satellite or online) is NOT going to have major impact on attendances, and likely any impact it does have, would potentially be mitigated anyway by the revenue these channels would generate.As for the argument regarding the impact it has on ''local'' teams - that''s just utter nonsense IMHO, certainly from my own perspective, at no point would I choose to go and watch a local non-league team play regardless of whether or not Man Utd vs Chelsea was available on TV, and most fans I''d argue are the same. They will go and give their time and money to their club, but they''re not likely to go 10-20 miles in the other direction to watch a bunch of amateurs kick a ball round for 90 minutes in the freezing cold...Like it or not, the live streaming services are here to stay, the leagues and clubs should be taking notice of this and realising that sticking their head in the sand doesn''t help anyone, and instead it would be better to get some legitimate money out of providing a better service than it is for people to pay nothing and keep watching as they are....

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Customer or fan ? These debates always degenerate into the competitive "I am a better fan than you" nonsense. You don''t change your club when you change your post code. Football is a business that is missing a trick imo. I suspect that the Championship is kept in it''s place in order to secure the Premiership monopoly (sic).

I prefer to live in Bristol to Norwich although I like both but I am Norfolk born and bred ,an ex season ticket holder and life long fan of Norwich City. If I lived near Norfolk I would look forward to attending every home game but it is not a competition! I neither want to watch Bristol City play at the weekend nor Burnley v Leicester/Man U!  All I want is to see the same extended highlights as are available in the Prem.

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For Hogesar''s benefit - I used the word "customer"  in the sense of when it comes to buying a subscription to a TV channel, or online channel I am a customer.   As far as the club goes we are all supporters, that is why we are here.

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Indy B

"As for the argument regarding the impact it has on ''local'' teams - that''s just utter nonsense IMHO, certainly from my own perspective, at no point would I choose to go and watch a local non-league team play regardless of whether or not Man Utd vs Chelsea was available on TV, and most fans I''d argue are the same. They will go and give their time and money to their club, but they''re not likely to go 10-20 miles in the other direction to watch a bunch of amateurs kick a ball round for 90 minutes in the freezing cold.."

I think you may have missed the point there Indy. When we were in the Prem and many local pubs were showing live streams of Norwich games on a Saturday afternoon , local grass roots football took a real hit in terms of participation. There may well have been reduced crowds at local football matches as well, but certainly in terms of players, lads who had previously been playing on a Saturday afternoon were found in the pub watching City.

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Thanks norfolkchance1.

That''s the clearest explanation I''ve had for the local radio issue and, whilst I don''t agree with the League''s stand on this (especially when I read that the cup games aren''t disconnected) at least I understand who''s pulling the strings.

Incidentally, as an occasional correspondent only (but a daily reader of the Forum) I have to say that this particular debate has been FAR more constructive and interesting than so much of the bile and point-scoring that too many other threads have contained recently. THIS is what I (and, I guess, many others) log on to read and follow with interest as a committed but now-living-in-another-county Canaries fan of 55 years - and the humour, of course!! There''s NOTHING to beat Norfolk humour!!

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[quote user="Indy_Bones"][quote user="PurpleCanary"]If you could watch plays and concerts and the like at home then that would damage or even kill off such live entertainment, and the same general danger applies to sport.[/quote]Perhaps you can explain then PC exactly WHY the premiership isn''t falling to it''s knees over catastrophical attendance drops because of the massive availability of streams showing pretty much every live match available?The truth is that attendances across pretty much all of the leagues have remained relatively stable BAR the Champs, which has mainly been linked to high ticket prices in relation to the football and quality of opposition on offer. People will pay £40 to watch Norwich vs Chelsea, they won''t pay £40 to watch Millwall vs Rotherham...The sheer fact that you can get a live stream for pretty much any premiership match is proof enough IMHO that making live matches available through legitimate channels (be this terrestrial tv, satellite or online) is NOT going to have major impact on attendances, and likely any impact it does have, would potentially be mitigated anyway by the revenue these channels would generate.As for the argument regarding the impact it has on ''local'' teams - that''s just utter nonsense IMHO, certainly from my own perspective, at no point would I choose to go and watch a local non-league team play regardless of whether or not Man Utd vs Chelsea was available on TV, and most fans I''d argue are the same. They will go and give their time and money to their club, but they''re not likely to go 10-20 miles in the other direction to watch a bunch of amateurs kick a ball round for 90 minutes in the freezing cold...Like it or not, the live streaming services are here to stay, the leagues and clubs should be taking notice of this and realising that sticking their head in the sand doesn''t help anyone, and instead it would be better to get some legitimate money out of providing a better service than it is for people to pay nothing and keep watching as they are....[/quote]Not true. The vast majority of artistic events,

such as plays and concerts, and the vast majority of sporting events are

not available. For very good reasons, to see them you have to go to

them. If you could watch plays and concerts and the like at home then

that would damage or even kill off such live entertainment, and the same

general danger applies to sport. No-one has even explained to me why

football, at least below the Premier League, should be should be any

different.
I accepted that the Premier League is different. As to attendances below the top flight remaining reasonably stable that may be true, but presumably because what live coverage there is at the moment, such as streams, is regarded by many fans as unsatisfactory. I can''t speak for others, but the one time I tried to watch a game on a stream the experience was so tedious I haven''t tried since.I can believe that the poor-quality products on offer now don''t tempt that many Football League fans to stay at home, but the point is that  what you and others want is a much higher-quality product. One essentially of TV quality. And one that would be more of a temptation to miss games.

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[quote user="......and Smith must score."]What a pleasure to see a nine page thread of sensible discussion without the usual '' knob '', '' bell-end '', or '' my Dad''s bigger than your Dad '' doing the rounds too.

Is everyone feeling alright ?[/quote]

I blame Neil........

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[quote user="Molly Windley"]I did post earlier that I thought that there were plans to enable live streaming of away games back to the away teams home ground, now found the article that I have posted a link to below.We had the opportunity to do a reciprocal deal with Blackburn earlier in the season, however NCFC vetoed it for reasons unknown.Live streaming, as it says in the article would, at the present be restricted to midweek games only.IMO pay per view for every Premiership game will come in the not too distant future, pushed by the top 4/5 teams who are after a greater share of tv monies.  http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/rovers/news/11419596.Norwich_City_refuse_Blackburn_Rovers__request_to_beam_back_tonight_s_Carrow_Road_clash_to_Ewood_Park/?action=complain&cid=13091375[/quote]

A very interesting article with the following paragraph, that would indicate that beaming back to clubs is something that will happen more often - 

"Following the installation of a fibre-optic network that will

eventually link all club stadiums, matches can now be beamed back to

grounds, live in HD, at a fraction of the previous cost. As a result clubs in the Championship can now enter into agreements

that will enable the away club to broadcast the game for the benefit of

its own fans.
"

This is a short step technologically, to being able to beam pictures out to homes - for a fee of course.  A fee at the ground could be a nominal £5, with the home subscription being £10, to encourage people to go to the ground as a preference to watching online. 

At the moment beam back is only allowed on midweek games, but surely our club should be promoting at least the beam back to CR??  Why wouldn''t they??  Its allowed, there would surely be a big demand at the ground to see Blackburn away in the reciprocal match??  Can''t they be bothered??   It serves the fans, Blackburn wanted to do it, Fulham do it........it wouldn''t affect me as I wouldn''t be able to get there, but it seems odd that the club don''t take advantage of something that would benefit fans...... 

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And what is that "short step technologically"then exactly?

The answer of course is "You don''t know"

This is another of those things where you just ramble on until people get bored of answering you, isn''t it?

They will only run beambacks where they can guarantee a good crowd, and can cover the cost of paying staff for the night You do realise that the football club is run as a profit making business, and not entirely as a community based charity, don''t you?

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[quote user="morty"]And what is that "short step technologically"then exactly?

The answer of course is "You don''t know"

This is another of those things where you just ramble on until people get bored of answering you, isn''t it?

They will only run beambacks where they can guarantee a good crowd, and can cover the cost of paying staff for the night You do realise that the football club is run as a profit making business, and not entirely as a community based charity, don''t you?[/quote]

The "short step" is nothing other than creating links to the streaming site that is providing the pictures from the other ground.  It is not even complicated.  The more complicated bit is creating the subscription set up, but still not difficult technologically.  The beamback is an excellent idea and would pay its way and if Fulham and Blackburn are doing it, then any club can do it.   You can deride me, but you can''t disguise that this is happening and will happen more  and more.  

Oh, and incidentally, this is a discussion board and a subject that plainly a lot of people think worth discussing, so why don''t you stick to the points of the discussion instead of the personal stuff, eh?    You may be bored of the thread..... if so, don''t post on it, then you won''t perpetuate it. 

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[quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="Molly Windley"]I did post earlier that I thought that there were plans to enable live streaming of away games back to the away teams home ground, now found the article that I have posted a link to below.We had the opportunity to do a reciprocal deal with Blackburn earlier in the season, however NCFC vetoed it for reasons unknown.Live streaming, as it says in the article would, at the present be restricted to midweek games only.IMO pay per view for every Premiership game will come in the not too distant future, pushed by the top 4/5 teams who are after a greater share of tv monies.  http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/rovers/news/11419596.Norwich_City_refuse_Blackburn_Rovers__request_to_beam_back_tonight_s_Carrow_Road_clash_to_Ewood_Park/?action=complain&cid=13091375[/quote]

A very interesting article with the following paragraph, that would indicate that beaming back to clubs is something that will happen more often - 

"Following the installation of a fibre-optic network that will

eventually link all club stadiums, matches can now be beamed back to

grounds, live in HD, at a fraction of the previous cost. As a result clubs in the Championship can now enter into agreements

that will enable the away club to broadcast the game for the benefit of

its own fans.
"

This is a short step technologically, to being able to beam pictures out to homes - for a fee of course.  A fee at the ground could be a nominal £5, with the home subscription being £10, to encourage people to go to the ground as a preference to watching online. 

At the moment beam back is only allowed on midweek games, but surely our club should be promoting at least the beam back to CR??  Why wouldn''t they??  Its allowed, there would surely be a big demand at the ground to see Blackburn away in the reciprocal match??  Can''t they be bothered??   It serves the fans, Blackburn wanted to do it, Fulham do it........it wouldn''t affect me as I wouldn''t be able to get there, but it seems odd that the club don''t take advantage of something that would benefit fans......[/quote]
The fibre network is the reason that you see the goals on Sky Sports News when they go in on a midweek, and the reason you get the illegal stream on a Saturday every week. Your not going to get a ''home subscription'', because it''ll result in even more illegal streams and less people paying for their ''home subscription''.
I''ve watched nearly all the Saturday away games on a stream that i''ve not been to, can''t get to midweek away games due to work, but even then, i''ve been able to see the goals go in as they do on Sky Sports News,  and at lunchtime the next day, i''ve had match highlights, and more than what you get on FLS for FREE at NorwichCity.TV
In regards to the beamback, the club would rather have people going on a coach to the away game earning them more money, rather than having to open CR, pay catering, stewarding staff and probably get less out of it. We''ve now reached half way in the season, a beam back hasn''t been offered yet, can''t see it happening in the second half of the season in all honesty. 

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Lol, you don''t half prattle on about things you know little about Lakey.

I''m here to make sure you know that not everyone is taken in by your waffle.

:-)

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[quote user="morty"]Lol, you don''t half prattle on about things you know little about Lakey.

I''m here to make sure you know that not everyone is taken in by your waffle.

:-)[/quote]What some people seem to find difficult is the idea that discussion of something can lead to a greater understanding for people - me included. I don''t pretend to know all the answers, I only know what I can glean for myself and what others say.  Some say beamback is not viable - others say it is.  For a midweek game it is sensible, because not everyone who would normally go to an away game on a Saturday can go midweek due to work etc.   Its being done by some clubs, is available to all clubs, so is well worthy of discussion.    Beamback is there to benefit fans.  The club is there to serve the fans. It could at least be tried out, especially if we are near the top as the season progresses.  It may mean more work for the club, but as I said they are there to serve the fans.  

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Regardless of the streaming debate (which in my view is mainly only an argument for PL teams, which will hopefully include us again soon)

The one thing I would like to see is the highlights for the Championship separated from League 1+2 and sold separately.

There''s no market for League 1 and 2 and the requirement for them to come as a package is killing the coverage of the only League that actually has the ability to attract an audience.

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I suppose, to add to this debate, not necessarily in favour of my views... but still...
Any of you watch our under 21''s live on youtube via the Saints official youtube channel? I was surprised when they also had commentary!
That wouldn''t be a solution for this subscription idea but it shows you the technology is generally there for that kind of thing. But setting up the infrastructure, the outgoing costs, the payment of staff, and the agreements with clubs for showing away games at the ground doesn''t really seem worth it just for the midweek away games.
What i stick to all along is the 3pm rule is there, it''s in place for a reason (think how much more money the Premier League etc could make from Sky Money if it were allowed to show all premier league games every week - so if there were no drawbacks it would be done!).
Just sign up to Canaries Player - you''ll at the very least get commentary when your illegal streams stop working.

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My advice to the grumblers - either get off your ar$se and actually go to matches, pay for the Canary Player (which is actually a pittance) or follow via the web. Put up or shut up.

Following your club is all about going to the games, enjoying the atmosphere and banter and feeling part of something, not sitting at your computer!

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[quote user="Suffolk Canary"]My advice to the grumblers - either get off your ar$se and actually go to matches, pay for the Canary Player (which is actually a pittance) or follow via the web. Put up or shut up. Following your club is all about going to the games, enjoying the atmosphere and banter and feeling part of something, not sitting at your computer![/quote]

 

This is it I would ban all kinds of streaming of games which would get rid of the more undesirable fans who contribute little in the way of finance/support for the club

Neil Out Messiah Back

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[quote user="Suffolk Canary"]Nine pages centred around LDC, giving him the attention he craves.

He''ll be loving this.[/quote]

Really ?

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[quote user="Canary Island"]

[quote user="Suffolk Canary"]My advice to the grumblers - either get off your ar$se and actually go to matches, pay for the Canary Player (which is actually a pittance) or follow via the web. Put up or shut up. Following your club is all about going to the games, enjoying the atmosphere and banter and feeling part of something, not sitting at your computer![/quote]

 

This is it I would ban all kinds of streaming of games which would get rid of the more undesirable fans who contribute little in the way of finance/support for the club

Neil Out Messiah Back

[/quote]

Fanscist

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Sorry Suffolk canary this thread has coped quite well over the ten pages or so before you chimed in with your abrasive riposte which was totally unecessary.

This thread is serving a very good purpose of have a positive discussion surrounding the coverage of football in general. I myself am less bothered about seeing games live at 3 or streaming but am concerned about a lack of free radio coverage. To suggest going out and buying canaries player because it is a pittance misses the point hugely. In what other aspect as a Uk citizen would you accept paying for something broadcast by the BBC.

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agreed re radio coverage - we pay our licence fee to include the BBC radio and websites.

why then can they not use this fee to broadcast online?

the licence fee is an antiquated format.. the BBC are cutting costs by closing bbc 3 later this year and alienating a large younger fanbase.

the time has come for "auntie beeb" to swallow its pride a bit and go down the advertising route... abolishing the licence.

Sky is a P*ss take... why pay a subscription for something which offers a number of channels all paid for by advertising...

I''d be interested to see how much of the football money actually comes from subscriptions to sky and how much from sky''s "partners"

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[quote user="jas the barclay king"]

I''d be interested to see how much of the football money actually comes from subscriptions to sky and how much from sky''s "partners"[/quote]I''ve seen figures for this before, I can''t remember where (maybe sportingintelligence site but can''t find it there) and private subscriptions add virtually nothing to the pot in the grand scheme of things.  The real money for Sky is in pubs where they charge an arm and a leg to allow football coverage to be shown.

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