Chase vs Wynn Joneses

[Iwans Big Toe 312]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="Iwans Big Toe"][quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="Iwans Big Toe"]

And finally there are quite a number of clubs the same size a Norwich City that have managed far more success than we have in recent times. Wigan (FA CUP winners), Fulham, Swansea (League Cup winners), Stoke City, WBA, Southampton (who sold many of their best players and still fin themselves near the top of the league). All of these clubs have sustained success for longer than we have managed with budgets that are comparable to our own. But I am not actually worried abous Swansea, Villa, Southampton or any other team in the football league. I am purely concerned with what Norwich City are doing.

[/quote]Of those clubs Stoke, Southampton and West Brom are historically bigger than Norwich City. Southampton, Stoke, Wigan, West Brom and Fulham all have richer owners. Fulham, Stoke and West Brom have all been paying more in wages, and almost certainly Southampton also last season. It is easier to compile a list of bigger or as big clubs that have not done as well as us. Nottingham Forest have been out of the Premier League for 17 seasons and Sheffield Wednesday almost as long. Ipswich haven''t been there in 12 seasons. Leeds haven''t in 10, and that includes time in the third tier. Wolves have only ever spent four seasons there, compared with out seven. Sheffield United have had three. Birmingham City only as many as us.

[/quote]I am not interested in who is "historically" bigger than Norwich City. The fact of the matter is that all of those clubs I mentioned have resources that are comparable with ours over recent history. Some of them may have richer owners, some of them may spend more on transfer fees and wages, some of them may have bigger stadiums and some may have a better youth set up. All of them have a similar standing in English football as what we do at the moment, in as much as they will probably never challenge the top 6-8 clubs on a regular basis but can certainly finance elongated stays in the top flight and put the odd cup run together.

[/quote]So which is it? These clubs can''t at the same time be bigger and richer and spend more on transfers and - crucially - wages - and still be comparable. You have said it yourself. What these clubs have done is "finance" stays in the Premier League. In some cases - Wigan, Fulham - stays now over and may not come back.And I notice you carefully ignore that list of all those bigger clubs who would kill for the kind of limited success we have had in the recent past.[/quote]So Norwich don''t have the resources to finance a long stay in the top flight? A debt free club isn''t capable of maintaining their position in the Premier League? What nonsense as usual Purple.And to what "bigger" clubs do you refer? Leeds may be? Sheffield Wednesday or United? How about Bradford City or Blackpool?

[PurpleCanary 5,556]

[quote user="Bury Green"]1) NN, the descent to League 1 was absolutely the net result of the majority shareholders stewardship, it really couldn''t be anyone else''s could it?

The arrival of a Chairman with Teflon coated credentials and a Chief Exec to go with him who in turn brought us Paul Lambert, the rest as they say is history. The creation of the Trinity, personally I really don''t want to see all of this ''Go the way of the pear'' anytime soon.

Seeing as it''s a generally grim December Tuesday lets just consider a spot of parsimony, it''s Occums Razor time.

2) Over an eighteen year period our managerial appointments have been handled a certain way with two notable exceptions, Worthington who wasn''t and of course Lambert. The net result of all of these other appointments has ended in varying degrees of disaster.

3) Whilst I''ve mentioned it before and been shouted down I''ll say it again. Given how entirely different the whole process of Lambert''s appointment was it is entirely logical and probable that the simplest answer is in fact the truest answer, the joint majority shareholders had precious little to do with it.[/quote]1) Yes. But look around. Only one season in the third tier is pretty good going for a cash-poor club in these financially-ruled times.2) Rioch doesn''t fit that pattern. Nor does Roeder. And "disaster" is  hyperbole goen mad. By disaster you mean one season in the third tier, four in the top flight and the rest in the second tier? To call that a disaster is a child''s view, and you are not that. If you have not already, examine that list I posted of clubs that would kill for our record.3) You haven''t been shouted down because you believe the Lambert choice may have happened because Bowkett and McNally had to work a bit to persuade Smith and Jones. I think it is quite possible, indeed likely, it happened that way. Where you - and to a  greater extent one other poster - have been attacked is for building on that one event, in which there were all sorts of special circumstances, an unsustainable thesis (which Occam would dismiss in an instant) that every good decison has been made despite Smith and Jones and every bad decisions because of them.

[PurpleCanary 5,556]

[quote user="Iwans Big Toe"]So Norwich don''t have the resources to finance a long stay in the top flight? A debt free club isn''t capable of maintaining their position in the Premier League? What nonsense as usual Purple.And to what "bigger" clubs do you refer? Leeds may be? Sheffield Wednesday or United? How about Bradford City or Blackpool?

[/quote]You''re right, Iwan. I was forgetting the decades Bradford City and Blackpool have spent in the Premier League.[:$]

[kantata soul 0]

[quote user="thebigfeller"]Chase? The football was on a different planet: we should never forget that. And while he oversaw two FA Cup semi-finals, three top five finishes, the elimination of Bayern bloody Munich and all the rest of it, since December 1995, Norwich City have been knocked out of domestic Cup competitions by a lower division team on no fewer than 15 separate occasions. How many times have we beaten a higher division opponent during that entire period? Zero. None at all. Norwich City 0, The Rest 15. That is Delia Smith''s epitaph at this club - and it''s an absolute embarrassment.[/quote]Good point about cup competitions, our excellent record in them was also during an era when they were taken a bit more seriously. These days we always seem to be too preoccupied with promotion or survival to really bother with them. I seem to remember someone on our board suggesting that playing in the Europa League wasn''t financially worth it and a bit of a drag given the amount of air travel involved! If anything signaled a lack of ambition and understanding then it was this.Ever since Walker left in 1998 the football has noticably deteriorated, yet is often hyped up as being brilliant. At youth level in a recent televised game the team were endlessly giving the ball away because of poor technique and organisation, but most fans seemed to think they played excellently. Adams was hyped up partly on his FA Youth Cup exploits, but the team was nothing special in terms of the standards set during Chase''s era. Back then the youth, reserves and first teams played pretty much the same way as demonstrated when our youth and reserves seamlessly slotted into the first team during our UEFA Cup campaign.Chase''s era is comparable to today''s in the sense that the standard of football can be compared regardless of the differing landscapes. It has gone from a good organised technical game to something that we''d have turned our noses up at 20 years ago. The passing was fast and instinctive instead of slow and telegraphed, and we could keep the ball far, far better. Gary Megson, Chase''s worst manager, was derided at the time for the bad quality of football, but today a lot of fans would be hailing someone like him for instilling an exciting fighting quality into the team.Both Mike Walker and Harry Redknapp have spoken about the lack of technical ability employed by managers in the English game over the same timespan, so it''s painful for those of us that remember the Walker and Stringer eras to see us go from high quality to low. This is especially the case when you see a team like Swansea opt for high quality, overtake us and end up playing in Europe.At present there is definitely something of a corporate management culture at the club that has edged out our footballing identity, everything is

over-managed by people with spurious job titles and driven by targets. Rather than improving the football we get the failings glossed over with the help of the club''s public relations department.

[Syteanric 1]

[quote user="Iwans Big Toe"]I the direct quote from Bob the Builder (as my uncle frequently reminds me) went something like "you''ve had a festival of football" or words to those effect. The truth is though that when he blatantly lied about the Sutton situation and said that if Sutton was sold he would sell the club yet didn''t, that was when the writing was on the wall for him. This leads one to wonder if the quote to the effect of we scoured the whole of Europe looking for the best man for the job might just be the bridge too far for the current chairman and owners. When you start taking your patrons for mugs that is generally when things go down hill rapidly. And judging from the plethora of posts on here recently that give the impression that people feel they have been lied to, it might not be too long before the writing is on the wall for the Joneses.The only thing that is going to save the current regime is if we get promoted this season and establish ourselves in the top flight. I feel that failure to do so will see an increase in bile and vitriol spewed at the current board until their position becomes untenable and they are forced to sell. I believe that this makes the next month the most important month for them in the history of their ownership of Norwich City. No more room for sentiment or half baked decisions.

[/quote]

good post and I very much agree! time will tell but I think change is coming.

[nutty nigel 7,527]

Hello again Shaun and nice to see you.

 

[quote user="thebigfeller"]To those highlighting the dire situation this

club was in in 1996, I have one simple question. At whose behest were the banks

going nuts and threatening to pull the plug? At whose behest? Those who do not

know the answer would be horrified if they did, believe me.[/quote]

 

If you are going to tell me the famous Barclay''s Bank Fairytale then be

sure to back it up as something more than office tittle tattle. Remember that if

you want to believe it then club legend Geoffrey Watling was complicit and there

goes that statue.....

 

 

[quote user="thebigfeller"]

Robert Chase mismanaged NCFC no more than scores of other owners of

clubs relegated from the Premier League since. We were simply the first of many

casualties of a new, unrecognisable boom time era. I agree with others that our

subsequent failure to sell Eadie or O''Neill for big bucks is substantially at

odds with the narrative we''ve been told about that time; so, for that matter,

was the inclusion of a number of Chase-era survivors on the new board. Why were

they included, given they''d apparently helped to almost kill

us?[/quote]

 

Robert Chase was a very committed Norwich fan and chairman. He was usually

one of the first to arrive at Carrow Road in the morning and one of the last to

leave at night. Robert Chases downfall was that he took too much upon himself

and rode rough shod over the rest of the board. Who were equally culpable for

letting him. Just read what Barry Lockwood has to say on my previous post. Had

he put a team around him and delegated it may not have ended in tears. Equally

we may not have had the success he gave us. There''s two sides to every story.

But we were where we were at the end and there''s no hiding from that.

 

[quote user="thebigfeller"]Martin Armstrong, whose work was almost as

tireless and critical as that of Gordon Bennett, was subsequently sacked by

Smith and Jones... and replaced by their mate, Bob the Grocer. Bob the Grocer

and Smith and Jones were then behind the outrageous removal of Bruce Rioch and

his replacement by the Blarneymeister; on top of the disgusting firing of Mike

Walker on the back of two successive 5-0 wins at home, his having somehow

navigated an impossible season with almost no tools at all, and his wife having

passed away from cancer only months earlier.

When they''ve wanted to, Delia Smith''s board have acted ruthlessly: very

ruthlessly. Their ruthlessness has invariably been dished out to those who

didn''t deserve it; their indulgence and endless excuses towards those who didn''t

either. That sums them up. And no football club, no business anywhere for that

matter, can hail itself as financially prudent when it doles out bonuses to the

Chief Executive after it''s just been relegated, at the same time as enforcing

40% wage cuts amongst the playing staff. The example that sets is a joke and a

disgrace; no wonder squad morale is so low when we behave like that.

[/quote]

There''s some nasty stuff there that doesn''t seem very little old Norwich to

me. The board who made those decisions was Delia, MWJ, Foulger, Doncaster,

Skipper, Munby, Lockwood. I don''t know the facts behind the Armstrongs

resignation or Walkers dismissal which has always appeared harsh in his personal

circumstances. But all those board members are culpable not just the majority

shareholders. I was never a great fan of Bob The Grocer but he took over from

Barry Lockwood as Chairman and was also a paid CE and he left the club after the

Play-off final. So whatever the wrongs and rights his cv looks pretty good. But

like I say I was never a fan!

 

As for McNally''s bonus, I wouldn''t be surprised if it''s not a bone of

contention with many at the club. Especially those who have taken pay cuts or

even made redundant. But it must have been in his contract which must have been

approved. I''m not going to defend it though. I got a tenner bonus this

year!!

 

[quote user="thebigfeller"]

Football will always come before

anything else - and on that front, Delia Smith and Michael Wynn Jones have

failed miserably. The idea that we''re supposed to ignore this and thank them

until the end of time for the club merely existing at all is just an insult: a

massive insult to some of the most loyal fans anywhere in the UK, who are still

being insulted by their ridiculous, laughable,

an-eight-year-old-could-make-better-appointments-than-you decisions now.

Chase? The football was on a different planet: we should never forget

that. And while he oversaw two FA Cup semi-finals, three top five finishes, the

elimination of Bayern bloody Munich and all the rest of it, since December 1995,

Norwich City have been knocked out of domestic Cup competitions by a lower

division team on no fewer than 15 separate occasions. How many times have we

beaten a higher division opponent during that entire period? Zero. None at all.

Norwich City 0, The Rest 15. That is Delia Smith''s epitaph at this club - and

it''s an absolute embarrassment.[/quote]

 

They''ve failed miserably compared to Chase but how have they fared compared

to other clubs in what is a totally different era. In the past 17 years they

have given us 4 seasons in the Premier League. Laughable compared to Chase?

Maybe but look at the teams that regularly challenged the top clubs during

Chase''s years. These were different times. In the time Smith and Jones have

owned the club 43 different clubs have played in the PL. 25 of them have had

more than our 4 seasons in there. That''s not the failure you are trying to

paint. And last but not least they have guided us through the most dangerous 15

years for club stability in the games history. They have done this safely,

without going into administration. A fate that befell so many others.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ricardo 7,380]

I''ve lost count of the number of times I''ve heard the same old tired arguments.The past is another country, they do things differently there.The only thing certain about the past is that it has led us to where we are now.All the rest is largely bullshit.

[nutty nigel 7,527]

You''re post is now in the past Rickyyyyyyyyyy. As I write mine it''s in the present but when you read it it''ll be in the past. [;)]

 

But you''re right. You can''t even learn lessons from the past because those circumstances never return again.

 

 

[ricardo 7,380]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

You''re post is now in the past Rickyyyyyyyyyy. As I write mine it''s in the present but when you read it it''ll be in the past. [;)]

 

But you''re right. You can''t even learn lessons from the past because those circumstances never return again.

 

 

[/quote]And we''d never all agree on the causes anyway.I think it was Hegel who said something to the affect that the only thing we learn from the past is that we never learn anything from the past.

[nutty nigel 7,527]

[quote user="ricardo"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

You''re post is now in the past Rickyyyyyyyyyy. As I write mine it''s in the present but when you read it it''ll be in the past. [;)]

 

But you''re right. You can''t even learn lessons from the past because those circumstances never return again.

 

 

[/quote]And we''d never all agree on the causes anyway.I think it was Hegel who said something to the affect that the only thing we learn from the past is that we never learn anything from the past.[/quote]

And Jethro Tull said...

 

Now there''s revolution, but they don''t know what they''re fighting. Let us close our eyes; outside their lives go on much faster. Oh, we won''t give in, we''ll keep living in the past.

 

 

[ricardo 7,380]

[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="ricardo"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

You''re post is now in the past Rickyyyyyyyyyy. As I write mine it''s in the present but when you read it it''ll be in the past. [;)]

 

But you''re right. You can''t even learn lessons from the past because those circumstances never return again.

 

 

[/quote]And we''d never all agree on the causes anyway.I think it was Hegel who said something to the affect that the only thing we learn from the past is that we never learn anything from the past.[/quote]

And Jethro Tull said...

 

Now there''s revolution, but they don''t know what they''re fighting. Let us close our eyes; outside their lives go on much faster. Oh, we won''t give in, we''ll keep living in the past.

 

 

[/quote]Indeed, I don''t think Hegel ever had a hit with his version though.[Y]

[PurpleCanary 5,556]

[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="ricardo"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

You''re post is now in the past Rickyyyyyyyyyy. As I write mine it''s in the present but when you read it it''ll be in the past. [;)]

 

But you''re right. You can''t even learn lessons from the past because those circumstances never return again.

 

 

[/quote]And we''d never all agree on the causes anyway.I think it was Hegel who said something to the affect that the only thing we learn from the past is that we never learn anything from the past.[/quote]

And Jethro Tull said...

 

Now there''s revolution, but they don''t know what they''re fighting. Let us close our eyes; outside their lives go on much faster. Oh, we won''t give in, we''ll keep living in the past.

 

 

[/quote]Or as the Lovin'' Spoonful put it:"And then I''ll know that all I''ve learnedMy kid assumes,And all my deepest worriesMust be his cartoons."

[Iwans Big Toe 312]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="Iwans Big Toe"]So Norwich don''t have the resources to finance a long stay in the top flight? A debt free club isn''t capable of maintaining their position in the Premier League? What nonsense as usual Purple.And to what "bigger" clubs do you refer? Leeds may be? Sheffield Wednesday or United? How about Bradford City or Blackpool?

[/quote]You''re right, Iwan. I was forgetting the decades Bradford City and Blackpool have spent in the Premier League.[:$][/quote]I notice you carefully avoided the question. [:$]

[PurpleCanary 5,556]

[quote user="Iwans Big Toe"][quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="Iwans Big Toe"]So Norwich don''t have the resources to finance a long stay in the top flight? A debt free club isn''t capable of maintaining their position in the Premier League? What nonsense as usual Purple.And to what "bigger" clubs do you refer? Leeds may be? Sheffield Wednesday or United? How about Bradford City or Blackpool?

[/quote]You''re right, Iwan. I was forgetting the decades Bradford City and Blackpool have spent in the Premier League.[:$][/quote]I notice you carefully avoided the question. [:$]

[/quote]Only because I took a couple of months of research, a month of writing and 5,000 words to provide a comprehensive answer to that question a short while ago.

[Iwans Big Toe 312]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="Iwans Big Toe"][quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="Iwans Big Toe"]So Norwich don''t have the resources to finance a long stay in the top flight? A debt free club isn''t capable of maintaining their position in the Premier League? What nonsense as usual Purple.And to what "bigger" clubs do you refer? Leeds may be? Sheffield Wednesday or United? How about Bradford City or Blackpool?

[/quote]You''re right, Iwan. I was forgetting the decades Bradford City and Blackpool have spent in the Premier League.[:$][/quote]I notice you carefully avoided the question. [:$]

[/quote]Only because I took a couple of months of research, a month of writing and 5,000 words to provide a comprehensive answer to that question a short while ago.[/quote]A month for 5000 words!!?? My goodness do you only have one finger?

[PurpleCanary 5,556]

[quote user="ricardo"]I''ve lost count of the number of times I''ve heard the same old tired arguments.The past is another country, they do things differently there.The only thing certain about the past is that it has led us to where we are now.All the rest is largely bullshit.[/quote]If we are talking about history and the past, then the news that the Lakenham cricket pavilion is about to be demolished is genuinely saddening. Some ghosts amd memories there.

[Bury Green 0]

Purple, accepting what you say about the Chairman and Chief Executive ''possibly'' putting pressure on the majority shareholders back in 2009, a decision that brought us almost unparalleled success why then return to the Carrow Rd Conclave?

The same decision making processes that have never once delivered us a successful manager, not one. Ever.

We know how Worthington arrived and I accept that Rioch was in many ways unfortunate but the rest of them are a real slasher movie list of managerial horrors. Roeder was a rabid psychopath, yes he kept us up but my God, the bloke beggared belief?

The process of identifying the man for us and going and getting him, annoying the other chairman to the point of litigation, clear, concise and decisive.

In the context of this thread of course Honest Bob never troubled himself with any of this, a well worked strategy of appointment from within to people who had genuinely served their apprenticeship. Back then it was called the Liverpool way I think, worked as well, brilliantly well as I''m sure we''d all agree.

[nutty nigel 7,527]

Well Greeno. From the base he inherited Chase did remarkably well. Brown was already in situ thanks to the late great Sir Arthur. Stringer was already in situ as was the vitally important David Williams again thanks to the late great Sir Arthur. Chase then attempted to flirt with an outside appointment in Phil Neal but it went tits up so he reverted to the tried and tested promoting from within and appointed Walker. Boy did that make the natives restless but Walker carried on the dynasty and all was good until he fell foul of big Bob who immediately replaced him with the tried and tested little old Norwich formula and up stepped John Deehan. By this time the influence of David Williams had long left the training ground. Deehan was powerless to survive the sales of so many players so Bob replaced him with Gary Megson from the trusted little old Norwich stable. Megson lasted until relegation and a brave new dawn beckoned as Chase appointed O''Neill who although had the required little old Norwich connections had served a good apprenticeship at Wycombe. Chase kept hold of him for at least4 months before Martin legged it to Leicester. Naturally Bob turned to his tried and failed Megson for his final hurrah.

 

Stringer

Walker

Deehan

Megson

O''Neil

Megson

 

Looks a well worked strategy to me...

 

 

[nutty nigel 7,527]

I can never understand why the late great Sir Arthur never gets the adulation that the others seem to get without trying. Sir Arthur was responsible for all that great football we get misty eyed over. From the day he brought John Bond through the door "little old Norwich" wasn''t seen again until Chase chased South out....

 

 

[PurpleCanary 5,556]

[quote user="Bury Green"]Purple, accepting what you say about the Chairman and Chief Executive ''possibly'' putting pressure on the majority shareholders back in 2009, a decision that brought us almost unparalleled success why then return to the Carrow Rd Conclave?

The same decision making processes that have never once delivered us a successful manager, not one. Ever.

We know how Worthington arrived and I accept that Rioch was in many ways unfortunate but the rest of them are a real slasher movie list of managerial horrors. Roeder was a rabid psychopath, yes he kept us up but my God, the bloke beggared belief?

The process of identifying the man for us and going and getting him, annoying the other chairman to the point of litigation, clear, concise and decisive.

In the context of this thread of course Honest Bob never troubled himself with any of this, a well worked strategy of appointment from within to people who had genuinely served their apprenticeship. Back then it was called the Liverpool way I think, worked as well, brilliantly well as I''m sure we''d all agree.[/quote]Because, as I said, the circumstances were different, indeed unique in my seven decades following Norwich City in particular and football in general.The chronology was this. Gunn (despite my best efforts) was reappointed by the old regime in early May. Smith and Jones headhunted McNally and he arrived in early June. Bowkett arrived in early July.McNally then saw Gunn up close in operation, for better or worse, on the tour of Scotland and the rest of pre-season. Didn''t like what he saw and compiled a four-point dossier of flaws.But all that would have been for nothing had it not been for the 7-1, which gave him (I suspect having got Bowkett on his side) the opportunity to press for Gunn to be sacked. It was a perfect confluence of events. He (and Bowkett) had not been party to re-hiring Gunn, so had clean hands. And if anyone else round the table said the 7-1 was a fluke then McNally could (and probably did) produce his damning dossier. More than that, rather than just creating  a problem, McNally could instantly solve it by naming Lambert as the best successor.But real life - in football and in real real life - is not only not normally that clear-cut. It is hardly ever - if ever - like that. It was a uniquely favourable set of circumstances, which arguably was the worst thing that could have happened to McNally, because it would never be that good or easy again.And it hasn''t been. Not because Smith and Jones have been involved but because all these seven reasonably capable human beings have had to cope with normal messy reality. Such as last season. There is absolutely no reason to suppose that if Bowkett and McNally had been left to themselves there would have been any different decisions taken (or that if there had been those different decisions would have turned out better than those taken). Look again at McNally''s mea culpa at the AGM. Hardly the comment of someone who deep down feels they were not to blame.

[Year of the tiger 54]

Just to add to Purples comments above re last season. Alan Bowkett at the AGM said he felt after Swansea away that Chris Hughton could not survive. This was a mere 8 days before he finally went & contradicts all those suggesting he (DM ) had been pushing for Hughton to go for months only to be countermanded by the owners.

[Year of the tiger 54]

Edit button. Should be he &

DM

[PurpleCanary 5,556]

[quote user="Year of the tiger"]Just to add to Purples comments above re last season. Alan Bowkett at the AGM said he felt after Swansea away that Chris Hughton could not survive. This was a mere 8 days before he finally went & contradicts all those suggesting he (DM ) had been pushing for Hughton to go for months only to be countermanded by the owners.[/quote]Thanks. I hadn''t seen that very useful quote. And I imagine that even then there was an argument around the boardroom table that perhaps, as had happened before, Hughton might get another home win (against West Brom) and we would just survive.

[Big Vince 318]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

I can never understand why the late great Sir Arthur never gets the adulation that the others seem to get without trying. Sir Arthur was responsible for all that great football we get misty eyed over. From the day he brought John Bond through the door "little old Norwich" wasn''t seen again until Chase chased South out....

 

 

[/quote]

There is a lot of truth here. I agree that Sir Arthur was in many ways the model chairman - a forthright personality who along with John Bond put Norwich on the map nationally with the brand of attractive football that came with Bond from Bournemouth and was carried on by his successors until the unfortunate demise of Chase. We nearly lost Sir Arthur prematurely as he had to make a dash for it to the terminal building at Liverpool Airport after a crash landing in 1984-85 season. There is no doubt that the 3 heavyweights in Canary history were Watling, Sir Arthur and Mr Chase and Norwich City rose to the heights it did because they followed each other in succession. Such a great pity no one spotted the complete lack of leadership credentials in the Wynn Joneses.

[Syteanric 1]

[quote user="thebigfeller"]To those highlighting the dire situation this club was in in 1996, I have one simple question. At whose behest were the banks going nuts and threatening to pull the plug? At whose behest? Those who do not know the answer would be horrified if they did, believe me.Robert Chase mismanaged NCFC no more than scores of other owners of clubs relegated from the Premier League since. We were simply the first of many casualties of a new, unrecognisable boom time era. I agree with others that our subsequent failure to sell Eadie or O''Neill for big bucks is substantially at odds with the narrative we''ve been told about that time; so, for that matter, was the inclusion of a number of Chase-era survivors on the new board. Why were they included, given they''d apparently helped to almost kill us?Martin Armstrong, whose work was almost as tireless and critical as that of Gordon Bennett, was subsequently sacked by Smith and Jones... and replaced by their mate, Bob the Grocer. Bob the Grocer and Smith and Jones were then behind the outrageous removal of Bruce Rioch and his replacement by the Blarneymeister; on top of the disgusting firing of Mike Walker on the back of two successive 5-0 wins at home, his having somehow navigated an impossible season with almost no tools at all, and his wife having passed away from cancer only months earlier.When they''ve wanted to, Delia Smith''s board have acted ruthlessly: very ruthlessly. Their ruthlessness has invariably been dished out to those who didn''t deserve it; their indulgence and endless excuses towards those who didn''t either. That sums them up. And no football club, no business anywhere for that matter, can hail itself as financially prudent when it doles out bonuses to the Chief Executive after it''s just been relegated, at the same time as enforcing 40% wage cuts amongst the playing staff. The example that sets is a joke and a disgrace; no wonder squad morale is so low when we behave like that.To return, though, to Chase. Yes, he made mistakes; big ones. No, he didn''t understand the post-Bosman, SKY era boom at all: our attendances from that time illustrate his complete failure on the commercial side of things. But what is this club before anything else? A football club. And the most successful era in our history during his time on the board - culminating in a season which even SKY remind us of each and every year, and a European campaign no-one who experienced it will ever forget - gave way to 20 years of purest mediocrity under his successors. 20 years of mediocrity under our ''saviours'': who''ve made one inspired managerial appointment in that entire time, chased him out and reneged on his contract, and for the most part, have employed a motley rabble of yes men, incompetents and never-weres, without so much as a spine or anything resembling leadership skills between them.Football will always come before anything else - and on that front, Delia Smith and Michael Wynn Jones have failed miserably. The idea that we''re supposed to ignore this and thank them until the end of time for the club merely existing at all is just an insult: a massive insult to some of the most loyal fans anywhere in the UK, who are still being insulted by their ridiculous, laughable, an-eight-year-old-could-make-better-appointments-than-you decisions now. Chase? The football was on a different planet: we should never forget that. And while he oversaw two FA Cup semi-finals, three top five finishes, the elimination of Bayern bloody Munich and all the rest of it, since December 1995, Norwich City have been knocked out of domestic Cup competitions by a lower division team on no fewer than 15 separate occasions. How many times have we beaten a higher division opponent during that entire period? Zero. None at all. Norwich City 0, The Rest 15. That is Delia Smith''s epitaph at this club - and it''s an absolute embarrassment.[/quote]

absolutely brilliant and told like it is! Well done Bigeller!

The Board have no idea, penalising the players yet rewarding the CEO for losing a manager with desire, drive and passion then hanging the next incumbent out to dry....

"Prudence with Ambition" has been the mantra from Day 1 the smiths walked into the club... they allegedly turned down investment from that chap at Towergate... the "Tottenham" Turners walked out, for reasons we still don''t know... ( I have a theory but that''s all it is)...

McNally is a yes man.. nothing more... our debt got wiped out due to being in the premiership.. nothing else... had we have failed to escape league 1 first time of asking I think we''d have entered administration.

Lambert, as said before, wanted it all and wanted it now... the club want the softly softly approach...

its time to sell up, time to go.. Delia, MWJ, McNally, Bowkett, all the others.. lets get in the right people who will take a punt and get us to the premiership.

Brentford, Leyton Orient, Luton Town, Shrewesbury, MK dons.. 5 of the teams to have toppled us since the Smiths reign.. and as above we''ve played Cheslea, Everton, Coventry, West Ham, all at the time in higher divisions and beaten none...

15th in the championship would suit our board... whilst the rest of football passes us by.

[Syteanric 1]

[quote user="Big Vince"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

I can never understand why the late great Sir Arthur never gets the adulation that the others seem to get without trying. Sir Arthur was responsible for all that great football we get misty eyed over. From the day he brought John Bond through the door "little old Norwich" wasn''t seen again until Chase chased South out....

 

 

[/quote]

There is a lot of truth here. I agree that Sir Arthur was in many ways the model chairman - a forthright personality who along with John Bond put Norwich on the map nationally with the brand of attractive football that came with Bond from Bournemouth and was carried on by his successors until the unfortunate demise of Chase. We nearly lost Sir Arthur prematurely as he had to make a dash for it to the terminal building at Liverpool Airport after a crash landing in 1984-85 season. There is no doubt that the 3 heavyweights in Canary history were Watling, Sir Arthur and Mr Chase and Norwich City rose to the heights it did because they followed each other in succession. Such a great pity no one spotted the complete lack of leadership credentials in the Wynn Joneses.[/quote]

Arthur South... "No Reeves, no Fans, No future"... sell a player to build a stand... something his successor was also good at.

[Iwans Big Toe 312]

[quote user="Big Vince"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

I can never understand why the late great Sir Arthur never gets the adulation that the others seem to get without trying. Sir Arthur was responsible for all that great football we get misty eyed over. From the day he brought John Bond through the door "little old Norwich" wasn''t seen again until Chase chased South out....

 

 

[/quote]

There is a lot of truth here. I agree that Sir Arthur was in many ways the model chairman - a forthright personality who along with John Bond put Norwich on the map nationally with the brand of attractive football that came with Bond from Bournemouth and was carried on by his successors until the unfortunate demise of Chase. We nearly lost Sir Arthur prematurely as he had to make a dash for it to the terminal building at Liverpool Airport after a crash landing in 1984-85 season. There is no doubt that the 3 heavyweights in Canary history were Watling, Sir Arthur and Mr Chase and Norwich City rose to the heights it did because they followed each other in succession. Such a great pity no one spotted the complete lack of leadership credentials in the Wynn Joneses.[/quote]Can I make an observation from your last sentence Vince? Nobody spotted the Wynn Joneses leadership deficiencies as we needed new owners and didn''t really care who it was. Geoffrey Watling had just bought the club and at the age of 83 he quite rightly lacked the drive, determination and more importantly energy to pull the club up by the boot straps from the brink of bankruptcy like he had done 40 years earlier. Delia and Mr Smith arrive on the scene and proceed sweet talk Mr Watling into selling them his shares, which he does, no doubt in good faith.The problem that I can see arising is history repeating itself. A majority of fans demanding that the current owners sell up, we don''t care who to, as anyone will be better than Chase, sorry I mean Delia.Now don''t misunderstand this post, it is not a support for the continued ownership of Delia and MWJ, just a warning that it needs to be done in the right manner. The correct people need to be put in charge of this club or we risk another 20 years of ludicrous managerial appointments.

[YankeeCanary 0]

[quote user="Big Vince"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

I can never understand why the late great Sir Arthur never gets the adulation that the others seem to get without trying. Sir Arthur was responsible for all that great football we get misty eyed over. From the day he brought John Bond through the door "little old Norwich" wasn''t seen again until Chase chased South out....

 

 

[/quote] There is a lot of truth here. I agree that Sir Arthur was in many ways the model chairman - a forthright personality who along with John Bond put Norwich on the map nationally with the brand of attractive football that came with Bond from Bournemouth and was carried on by his successors until the unfortunate demise of Chase. We nearly lost Sir Arthur prematurely as he had to make a dash for it to the terminal building at Liverpool Airport after a crash landing in 1984-85 season. There is no doubt that the 3 heavyweights in Canary history were Watling, Sir Arthur and Mr Chase and Norwich City rose to the heights it did because they followed each other in succession. Such a great pity no one spotted the complete lack of leadership credentials in the Wynn Joneses.[/quote]

 

Ah....lack of leadership credentials.... the phrase often used in today''s world by a healthy portion of the masses in a negative sense when referring to those in a position of power, whether it be toward politicians, executives in a company or even towards parents when grown-up children want to look for source to place fault for their own shortcomings. There are many types of leaders. Outgoing, charismatic types, quiet and steady, insightful or intellectual. There are also many types of leadership traits. Here are some that I value: dependable, lives within ones means, willing to stand with me through joy and adversity, provides continuity, loyal, integrity. I think NCFC has a lot of those traits present in our majority owners. I''m thankful for that.  

[Iwans Big Toe 312]

[quote user="YankeeCanary"][quote user="Big Vince"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

I can never understand why the late great Sir Arthur never gets the adulation that the others seem to get without trying. Sir Arthur was responsible for all that great football we get misty eyed over. From the day he brought John Bond through the door "little old Norwich" wasn''t seen again until Chase chased South out....

 

 

[/quote] There is a lot of truth here. I agree that Sir Arthur was in many ways the model chairman - a forthright personality who along with John Bond put Norwich on the map nationally with the brand of attractive football that came with Bond from Bournemouth and was carried on by his successors until the unfortunate demise of Chase. We nearly lost Sir Arthur prematurely as he had to make a dash for it to the terminal building at Liverpool Airport after a crash landing in 1984-85 season. There is no doubt that the 3 heavyweights in Canary history were Watling, Sir Arthur and Mr Chase and Norwich City rose to the heights it did because they followed each other in succession. Such a great pity no one spotted the complete lack of leadership credentials in the Wynn Joneses.[/quote]

 

Ah....lack of leadership credentials.... the phrase often used in today''s world by a healthy portion of the masses in a negative sense when referring to those in a position of power, whether it be toward politicians, executives in a company or even towards parents when grown-up children want to look for source to place fault for their own shortcomings. There are many types of leaders. Outgoing, charismatic types, quiet and steady, insightful or intellectual. There are also many types of leadership traits. Here are some that I value: dependable, lives within ones means, willing to stand with me through joy and adversity, provides continuity, loyal, integrity. I think NCFC has a lot of those traits present in our majority owners. I''m thankful for that.  

[/quote]From where I''m standing it looks more like this:dependable - It''s our clube and we''re not going anywhere get used to it.lives within ones means - Unambitious, one could even use the term that frugal food has been served.willing to stand with me through joy and adversity - More than willing to take the acolades for success, but not to shoulder the responsibility for failure.provides continuity - We''re still not going anywhere get used to it.loyal - Once again we''ve told you, we''re not going anywhere will you please stop asking us to leave.integrity - Has a good PR officer.All a matter of what your perspective is Yankee

[coming on strong 0]

[quote user="no future"][quote user="thebigfeller"]Chase? The football was on a different planet: we should never forget that. And while he oversaw two FA Cup semi-finals, three top five finishes, the elimination of Bayern bloody Munich and all the rest of it, since December 1995, Norwich City have been knocked out of domestic Cup competitions by a lower division team on no fewer than 15 separate occasions. How many times have we beaten a higher division opponent during that entire period? Zero. None at all. Norwich City 0, The Rest 15. That is Delia Smith''s epitaph at this club - and it''s an absolute embarrassment.[/quote]Good point about cup competitions, our excellent record in them was also during an era when they were taken a bit more seriously. These days we always seem to be too preoccupied with promotion or survival to really bother with them. I seem to remember someone on our board suggesting that playing in the Europa League wasn''t financially worth it and a bit of a drag given the amount of air travel involved! If anything signaled a lack of ambition and understanding then it was this.Ever since Walker left in 1998 the football has noticably deteriorated, yet is often hyped up as being brilliant. At youth level in a recent televised game the team were endlessly giving the ball away because of poor technique and organisation, but most fans seemed to think they played excellently. Adams was hyped up partly on his FA Youth Cup exploits, but the team was nothing special in terms of the standards set during Chase''s era. Back then the youth, reserves and first teams played pretty much the same way as demonstrated when our youth and reserves seamlessly slotted into the first team during our UEFA Cup campaign.Chase''s era is comparable to today''s in the sense that the standard of football can be compared regardless of the differing landscapes. It has gone from a good organised technical game to something that we''d have turned our noses up at 20 years ago. The passing was fast and instinctive instead of slow and telegraphed, and we could keep the ball far, far better. Gary Megson, Chase''s worst manager, was derided at the time for the bad quality of football, but today a lot of fans would be hailing someone like him for instilling an exciting fighting quality into the team.Both Mike Walker and Harry Redknapp have spoken about the lack of technical ability employed by managers in the English game over the same timespan, so it''s painful for those of us that remember the Walker and Stringer eras to see us go from high quality to low. This is especially the case when you see a team like Swansea opt for high quality, overtake us and end up playing in Europe.At present there is definitely something of a corporate management culture at the club that has edged out our footballing identity, everything is

over-managed by people with spurious job titles and driven by targets. Rather than improving the football we get the failings glossed over with the help of the club''s public relations department.[/quote]What utter rubbish!!! The sort of football you talk about from years and years ago is antiquated by today''s standards. We played brilliant football under Nigel Worthington and topped anything from Chase''s days when Lambert was in charge. If we went back to the past like you suggest then we''d get blown out of the water by teams good at countering the pretty-pretty approach.You''re harding making a good case by citing dinosaurs like Redknapp whose team got relegated and will probably be relegated again this season. Instead of harking back to the past and attacking Neil''s FA Youth winners why don''t you try supporting the team in its quest for promotion? A couple of wins and Neil will be hailed as a genius as we once again challenge the top spots. OTBC!