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HampsteadCanary

Our approach to the last five matches....

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So we''ve seen two very different types of approach and formation, with varying degrees of success. The four central midfield approach is supposed to be solid, but we''ve actually conceded most of our goals with this line-up (Derby/Reading). Do we need to find a better balance between the two? It struck me that Redmond and Hoolahan created two thirds of our goals against Huddersfield with the first two coming from mistakes.

How about this for the Bournemouth game?

---------------------- Ruddy --------------------

Whittaker - Martin - Cuellar (if fit) - Ollson

-------------------- O''Neil -----------------------

Redmond - Howson - Wesley - Johnson

--------------------Hooper-----------------------

1) I think Wes and Hooper have a great understanding

2) One of Wes and Howson pushing on

2) Howson covering Redmond, also makes good late runs into the box

3) Johno can''t stop scoring but also covers Wes on that left/central midfield side

4) O''Neil keeps the ball moving quickly

5) this should be solid enough while having enough attacking/creative intent.

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I think we have to try and play to our strengths as much as possible, Jerome is our goal scorer this season, Redmond is our creative attacking force, Howson is the box to box player, Tettey is our rock when he''s played as our defensive midfielder. Team for Bournemouth:

Ruddy

Martin Bennett Turner Olsson

Redmond Howson Tettey Johnson

Hooper Jerome

Would be my personal choice, but no one knows what Adams could put out. He could continue to play a flat midfield with centre mids and we''d all not bat an eye lid because essentially it''s up to him

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Wes in a straight midfield four does not say "solid" to me, I''m afraid.And I really can''t see any logic for dropping out top goalscorer, Jerome.

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There r 2 options

Redmond starts in both

2 forwards - Redmond on the right but no Hooly

I forward - Redmond on right with Hooly in the hole

To play 2 up top Redmond & Hooly leaves us too open

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I was imagining it more like THIS:

---------------O''Neil--------------------

----------------------------Johnson---

--------Howson------------------------

Redmond---------Wes---------------

------------Hooper---------------------

I doubt we would drop Jerome, he probably does suit the lone striker role better, but I think Hooper is starting to look the business with sharper passing. With Wes tucked in behind Hooper, Johnson can cover him on that left side, and he tends to play like a LM not a winger, leaving room for Olsson to get forward. I just think Jerome can lack composure in 1-on-1 situations. I also figured a side with O''Neil, Johnson and Howson should have enough steele and a good chance of keeping the ball moving. Better balance maybe?

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                     RedmondRedmond   Redmond  Redmond   Redmond           The Ghost of Fox  Redmond    Wes    The Ghost of Surman      Redmond     The Ghost of Chris MartinOr arlternatively play reserves and fringe players. Although i am not that bothered with the cup, i think Neil will have to put out a strong squad to get the haters off his back.

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[quote user="morty"]I really don''t think you can play Redmond and Wes in the same team away from home.[/quote]

Actually agree with this [:O].   Redmond is the flair player and on his day will cause no end of problems for opposition.   Put Wes in on his own too and he will cause problems - as long as he plays off the striker and not as a left midfielder.  Also, coming on together as they did the other day was bound to be unsettling for team balance.    At Blackpool the team only had good shape when Wes went off.

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You can play Redmond and Wes in the same team but difficult in a 4-4-2 unless we are totally rampant. It would work in the 4-2-3-1 formation though.

The other interesting tactic which we''ve never tried but I believe Martin O''Neill has for Ireland is whether in some games where teams are likely to sit back you could play Wes as one of the 2 central midfielders in a 4-4-2 thus enabling you to play Hooper and Jerome. In my view him next to Tettey would work against the weaker sides.

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[quote user="morty"]I really don''t think you can play Redmond and Wes in the same team away from home.
[/quote]

 

I dont completely agree with this.

 

If we are playing with two strikers plus these two then you are spot on - it leaves us to weak in the centre and exposed at the back.

 

However if we are playing with a lone striker we can use them in the same starting 11,  as long as the team structure is right. Also if its successful at home there is little reason why it cant be successful away - we just need the team to be more disciplined and consistent.  

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[quote user="ZippersLeftFoot"]

[quote user="morty"]I really don''t think you can play Redmond and Wes in the same team away from home.[/quote]

 

I dont completely agree with this.

 

If we are playing with two strikers plus these two then you are spot on - it leaves us to weak in the centre and exposed at the back.

 

However if we are playing with a lone striker we can use them in the same starting 11,  as long as the team structure is right. Also if its successful at home there is little reason why it cant be successful away - we just need the team to be more disciplined and consistent.  

[/quote]
[Y]
The problem is, I presume, the reluctancy to drop Jerome & Hooper who are both performing well and contributing to goals. 
It''s really for Adams and Co to decide if we''re better off having one striker but more creativity in midfield or 2 strikers and limiting who we can play in midfield.
I personally think if we want to really control games in this league - as we do - then we''re better off playing one up front and having an extra man, albeit Wes, in midfield. 

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[quote user="ZippersLeftFoot"]

[quote user="morty"]I really don''t think you can play Redmond and Wes in the same team away from home.[/quote]

 

I dont completely agree with this.

 

If we are playing with two strikers plus these two then you are spot on - it leaves us to weak in the centre and exposed at the back.

 

However if we are playing with a lone striker we can use them in the same starting 11,  as long as the team structure is right. Also if its successful at home there is little reason why it cant be successful away - we just need the team to be more disciplined and consistent.  

[/quote]Thats a lot of "if''s, buts, and maybe''s" though.Its pretty obvious that we favour two strikers, so I was talking in that context.

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Yep, with two strikers, having Redmond and Wes on the pitch (unless we''re chasing a game) is almost defensive suicide.
Although saying that, little Wes does put in a very good work rate of chasing and harrying opponents.

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[quote user="hogesar"]Yep, with two strikers, having Redmond and Wes on the pitch (unless we''re chasing a game) is almost defensive suicide.
Although saying that, little Wes does put in a very good work rate of chasing and harrying opponents.
[/quote]Yes he does chase and harry, but its usually to little effect, he looks busy, but its rare that his chasing and harrying will actually result in him taking the ball off someone.I think the point here is that Wes is coming to the end of his career, and we aren''t going to build a team around him, which you invariably have to do with him. I think Adams sees Wes as a bit part player, to be used during games, as opposed to starting them, when we need a different dimension.And, like we say, we seem hell bent on playing two strikers.

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interestingly enough both wes and redmond successfully complete as many tackles, interceptions and clearances per game as howson and O''neil, with tettey & BJ leading the way - so is our perception of their defensive weakness fair?

 

I suspect its positional - their harrying work is done higher up the pitch so tends to be less "crucial" or noticable and in less dangerous areas.

 

 

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[quote user="ZippersLeftFoot"]

interestingly enough both wes and redmond successfully complete as many tackles, interceptions and clearances per game as howson and O''neil, with tettey & BJ leading the way - so is our perception of their defensive weakness fair?

 

I suspect its positional - their harrying work is done higher up the pitch so tends to be less "crucial" or noticable and in less dangerous areas.

 

 

[/quote]Stats, stats, stats.....

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[quote user="ZippersLeftFoot"]

interestingly enough both wes and redmond successfully complete as many tackles, interceptions and clearances per game as howson and O''neil, with tettey & BJ leading the way - so is our perception of their defensive weakness fair?

 

I suspect its positional - their harrying work is done higher up the pitch so tends to be less "crucial" or noticable and in less dangerous areas. 

[/quote]
Sounds plausible to me.
However the management team have access to these stats and more - if it were the case, as assuming I have faith in the management team to get things right - why haven''t we tried this? Playing our most creative direct players together..

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[quote user="morty"][quote user="ZippersLeftFoot"]

interestingly enough both wes and redmond successfully complete as many tackles, interceptions and clearances per game as howson and O''neil, with tettey & BJ leading the way - so is our perception of their defensive weakness fair?

 

I suspect its positional - their harrying work is done higher up the pitch so tends to be less "crucial" or noticable and in less dangerous areas.

 

 

[/quote]

Stats, stats, stats.....
[/quote]

 

The facts/stats indicate  that your opinion  "Yes he does chase and harry, but its usually to little effect, he looks busy, but its rare that his chasing and harrying will actually result in him taking the ball off someone" is not completely correct - wes takes the ball off players more often then other cms,  and wins more tackles than all bar 8 players at the club (of the 25 used) 

 

I have given some context around both, when its not good to play both and why the stats do not give the whole context;   I only pointed out that it was interesting that (both of ours) assumption that they were not great defensively was not as accurate,  and so less significant,   as it first appears.

 

Try debating once in a while rather than simply descending to troll type sniping. 

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[quote user="hogesar"]

Sounds plausible to me.


However the management team have access to these stats and more - if it were the case, as assuming I have faith in the management team to get things right - why haven''t we tried this? Playing our most creative direct players together..

[/quote]

 

I suspect its about choices - the management teams preference since Cardiff way has been for two strikers (and there is merit in that if not the way I would go) - and we have all agreed we cant do that AND have redmond and wes in the side.

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[quote user="ZippersLeftFoot"][quote user="morty"][quote user="ZippersLeftFoot"]

interestingly enough both wes and redmond successfully complete as many tackles, interceptions and clearances per game as howson and O''neil, with tettey & BJ leading the way - so is our perception of their defensive weakness fair?

 

I suspect its positional - their harrying work is done higher up the pitch so tends to be less "crucial" or noticable and in less dangerous areas.

 

 

[/quote]Stats, stats, stats.....[/quote]

 

The facts/stats indicate  that your opinion  "Yes he does chase and harry, but its usually to little effect, he looks busy, but its rare that his chasing and harrying will actually result in him taking the ball off someone" is not completely correct - wes takes the ball off players more often then other cms,  and wins more tackles than all bar 8 players at the club (of the 25 used) 

 

I have given some context around both, when its not good to play both and why the stats do not give the whole context;   I only pointed out that it was interesting that (both of ours) assumption that they were not great defensively was not as accurate,  and so less significant,   as it first appears.

 

Try debating once in a while rather than simply descending to troll type sniping. 

[/quote]Oh stop being so precious.My "Stats" post means that anyone can manipulate stats to make any point they like.IN MY OPINION (that point is important) I do not consider Wes to have strong defensive qualities. And really I would suspect any stats that prove he is, to be flawed.

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And having just read one of your stats that there are 8 players that make more tackles than he does, well that hardly makes your point conclusive, does it?

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I am thinking that Morty needs to be appointed our next Manager, so much sense coming through his keyboard! But seriously, if its a choice of Redmond or Hoolahan to start with a front two, then surely its a bit of a no brainer and Redmond starts. That said, for me, he would be one of the first names on the team sheet and I would make things work to accomodate him, a class act and the future. Wes comes in handy from the bench though and there will be occasions when he should start, but not at Bournemouth.

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[quote user="Dubai Mark"]I am thinking that Morty needs to be appointed our next Manager, so much sense coming through his keyboard! But seriously, if its a choice of Redmond or Hoolahan to start with a front two, then surely its a bit of a no brainer and Redmond starts. That said, for me, he would be one of the first names on the team sheet and I would make things work to accomodate him, a class act and the future. Wes comes in handy from the bench though and there will be occasions when he should start, but not at Bournemouth.[/quote]Sorry Mark, I have already been approached by West Brom[;)]

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Take a look at the thread morty - I agree with you more than disagree - you in this mood is what makes this place a pain.

 

Where we play two strikers we can not play with Wes & Redmond as they weaken us defensively,  I am agreeing with your opinion

I put forward an alternative formation where we can accomodate both without affecting our defensive structure

You state that it is rare for wes to actually succeed in taking the ball off anyone despite all his endeavours

Facts show that there are just 8 players better and 16 worse at taking the ball of opponents than Wes,  including those viewed as more defensively able than Wes. This suggests that his defensive qualities are not as weak as my original perception.

I have not stated that Wes is strong defensively,  let alone look to demonstrate that - that can only be your assumption

I post why the stat may be disporportionately generous to Wes (and Redmond)

You opinion that it is rare for wes to win the ball is factually wrong - he does so every game he plays and more frequently than two thirds of the squad.

Your opinion that wes weakens the team is one I share,  if we start with two strikers.

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[quote user="ZippersLeftFoot"]

Take a look at the thread morty - I agree with you more than disagree - you in this mood is what makes this place a pain.

 

Where we play two strikers we can not play with Wes & Redmond as they weaken us defensively,  I am agreeing with your opinion

I put forward an alternative formation where we can accomodate both without affecting our defensive structure

You state that it is rare for wes to actually succeed in taking the ball off anyone despite all his endeavours

Facts show that there are just 8 players better and 16 worse at taking the ball of opponents than Wes,  including those viewed as more defensively able than Wes. This suggests that his defensive qualities are not as weak as my original perception.

I have not stated that Wes is strong defensively,  let alone look to demonstrate that - that can only be your assumption

I post why the stat may be disporportionately generous to Wes (and Redmond)

You opinion that it is rare for wes to win the ball is factually wrong - he does so every game he plays and more frequently than two thirds of the squad.

Your opinion that wes weakens the team is one I share,  if we start with two strikers.

[/quote]Why produce "stats" to back up a point that you don''t actually agree with then?Odd.

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There''s no reason why we can''t have two strikers with wes and redmond in the team. Hull did it extremely well last season in the premier league and man u are now flying with that system because they are much stronger in attack than in defence; like us. (I''m not saying we have the quality with Van Persie, Rooney and Falcao, just that they play to their strengths).

---------------------Ruddy------------------

----------Martin--Turner--Bennett------

Redmond--Tettey--Johnson--Olsson

--------------------Hoolahan---------------

------------Hooper--------Jerome--------

It''s perfect for our team when at home. Martin playing at right centre back but is also a proper RB, Olsson who can play LM as well as LB as he likes to get forward (also we have no left winger because Adams sold Pilks), without the ball he can drop back into a LB slot with Johnson moving over, almost like he''s doing at the moment.

It''s almost too perfect against a weaker team at home, just trying to get a 0-0. Play to our strengths I say.

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You know full well we will go with for CMs vs Bournemouth.

Ruddy

Whittaker R.Bennett Martin Olsson

Redmond Tettey Howson Johnson

Hooper Jerome

Rudd Cuellar Turner O''Neill Hoolahan Grabban Lafferty

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[quote user="CJRV 2014"]You know full well we will go with for CMs vs Bournemouth.

Ruddy

Whittaker R.Bennett Martin Olsson

Redmond Tettey Howson Johnson

Hooper Jerome

Rudd Cuellar Turner O''Neill Hoolahan Grabban Lafferty[/quote]I think that is the most likely team (despite you branding Redmond a CM[;)])

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