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pete

Debt Free

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Not for much longer methinks although City being run on the cheap we will not be able to cover our costs on the vastly reduced income. Certainly will not finance the new players needed to improve the squad. Maybe even may flout FFP rules by running our inflated over paid squad that would surely be the end of McNally.

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Our being debt free, Pete, is primarily (though, to be fair, not wholly) a function of being in the Premier League for 3 seasons.Which makes it all the more perplexing that  despite the board''s weasel words after relegation they clearly are happy to pootle around in the Championship (or lower) for a while, and why they thus appointed a manager with absolutely zero Champ experience.

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We are a middle sized club with middle sized resources. Wishing it were different won''t make it so.As for spending money we don''t have, I seem to recall that we''ve been there and done that and suffered a decade or more of misery.

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[quote user="Reggie Strayshun"]Our being debt free, Pete, is primarily (though, to be fair, not wholly) a function of being in the Premier League for 3 seasons.Which makes it all the more perplexing that  despite the board''s weasel words after relegation they clearly are happy to pootle around in the Championship (or lower) for a while, and why they thus appointed a manager with absolutely zero Champ experience.[/quote]So when McNally and Bowkett said we had to get back to the Prem ASAP as it was the only place to be, they were fibbing to us, Reg?

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[quote user="ricardo"][quote user="Reggie Strayshun"]Our being debt free, Pete, is primarily (though, to be fair, not wholly) a function of being in the Premier League for 3 seasons.Which makes it all the more perplexing that  despite the board''s weasel words after relegation they clearly are happy to pootle around in the Championship (or lower) for a while, and why they thus appointed a manager with absolutely zero Champ experience.[/quote]So when McNally and Bowkett said we had to get back to the Prem ASAP as it was the only place to be, they were fibbing to us, Reg?[/quote]No, he''s not saying that, he''s saying that is his opinion which apparently is different from what the words actually mean.

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Not familiar with the concept of people in authority (eg politicians, bankers) saying one thing in public and actually meaning and believing something totally different ,then, are we chaps ??

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[quote user="Reggie Strayshun"]Not familiar with the concept of people in authority (eg politicians, bankers) saying one thing in public and actually meaning and believing something totally different ,then, are we chaps ??[/quote]I am quite familiar with it Reg but it makes no economic sense to think that the club is comfortable in the Championship. Eventually you have to get into debt to chase the dream. There simply is no comfortable long term existance in the Championship. Only Premiership football can clear your debts.

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[quote user="ricardo"]. Only Premiership football can clear your debts.[/quote]Precisely the point, Rick. We''ve had PL football and our debts ARE clear.I''ve no intrinsic problem with a goal of being debt free. What I do have a problem with is people standing up and saying the ''Prem is the only place to be''  and then introducing policies that are likely to produce Champ football at best.

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[quote user="ricardo"][quote user="Reggie Strayshun"]Not familiar with the concept of people in authority (eg politicians, bankers) saying one thing in public and actually meaning and believing something totally different ,then, are we chaps ??[/quote]I am quite familiar with it Reg but it makes no economic sense to think that the club is comfortable in the Championship. Eventually you have to get into debt to chase the dream. There simply is no comfortable long term existance in the Championship. Only Premiership football can clear your debts.[/quote]

Your confusing making sense with what poor old Reggie was saying/opining.

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[quote user="A Load of Squit"][quote user="ricardo"][quote user="Reggie Strayshun"]Not familiar with the concept of people in authority (eg politicians, bankers) saying one thing in public and actually meaning and believing something totally different ,then, are we chaps ??[/quote]I am quite familiar with it Reg but it makes no economic sense to think that the club is comfortable in the Championship. Eventually you have to get into debt to chase the dream. There simply is no comfortable long term existance in the Championship. Only Premiership football can clear your debts.[/quote]

Your confusing making sense with what poor old Reggie was saying/opining.

[/quote]Since when has football been anything to do with common sense?[:D]We want it all, we want it now and if we don''t get it then it must be someone elses fault.

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[quote user="ricardo"][quote user="A Load of Squit"][quote user="ricardo"][quote user="Reggie Strayshun"]Not familiar with the concept of people in authority (eg politicians, bankers) saying one thing in public and actually meaning and believing something totally different ,then, are we chaps ??[/quote]I am quite familiar with it Reg but it makes no economic sense to think that the club is comfortable in the Championship. Eventually you have to get into debt to chase the dream. There simply is no comfortable long term existance in the Championship. Only Premiership football can clear your debts.[/quote]

Your confusing making sense with what poor old Reggie was saying/opining.

[/quote]Since when has football been anything to do with common sense?[:D]We want it all, we want it now and if we don''t get it then it must be someone elses fault.[/quote][:D]

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[quote user="ricardo"]Since when has football been anything to do with common sense?[:D]We want it all, we want it now and if we don''t get it then it must be someone elses fault.[/quote]Not going to disagree with that, Rick.But, let''s just be clear on this. What are you advocating...... staying debt free by cutting our cloth etc, or ''chasing the dream'' building up debts once again and getting back into the Premier league ?Not for the first time you are giving out mixed messages.

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From memory the Chairman mentioned something about having an overdraft facility in place if we are still in the Championship next season, which lefts face it, seems odds on. Perhaps I misread it but I''d be amazed if there wasn''t some sort of provision.

Mind you banks aren''t going to be falling over themselves to finance a football club wether it''s ours or anybody else''s given the scale of debt that exists in the game.

Assuming we do then I''d love to have seen the business plan that''d have been submitted and how having the most important roll in the club filled by someone with absolutely zero experience. Banks are funny like this, they tend not to get caught up in the sentimental.

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[quote user="Reggie Strayshun"][quote user="ricardo"]Since when has football been anything to do with common sense?[:D]We want it all, we want it now and if we don''t get it then it must be someone elses fault.[/quote]Not going to disagree with that, Rick.But, let''s just be clear on this. What are you advocating...... staying debt free by cutting our cloth etc, or ''chasing the dream'' building up debts once again and getting back into the Premier league ?Not for the first time you are giving out mixed messages.[/quote]A difficult line to walk and I''m glad the decision isn''t mine. If by some misfortune it was up to me, then I wouldn''t hock the future of the club on an all out splurge in the hope of coming up trumps. Plenty of examples of failure among those that gambled and lost.My opinion of the clubs status is what it has always been and what years of bitter experience has proved to me. We are a medium sized club, similar to about twenty others that continually re-cycle between the top half of the Championship and the bottom half of the Premier League. In very occasional and exceptional years we might fall out of this band in either direction but basically it holds true 95% of the time. Only two things can ever change this, bankrupcy or the arrival of a sugar daddy. Neither of these seem to be on the immediate horizon.For those reasons, I expect that the dwindling number of years that remain to me as an NCFC supporter, will be largely like the many that have gone before. Some highs and some lows and a lot of moaning and groaning in the middle.[:D]

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[quote user="Bury Green"]From memory the Chairman mentioned something about having an overdraft facility in place if we are still in the Championship next season, which lefts face it, seems odds on. Perhaps I misread it but I''d be amazed if there wasn''t some sort of provision.

Mind you banks aren''t going to be falling over themselves to finance a football club wether it''s ours or anybody else''s given the scale of debt that exists in the game.

Assuming we do then I''d love to have seen the business plan that''d have been submitted and how having the most important roll in the club filled by someone with absolutely zero experience. Banks are funny like this, they tend not to get caught up in the sentimental.[/quote]As I recall it, there will be a short period where will require a £3 million overdraft due to the timing of payments. I don''t see it as a problem and Bowkett didn''t either.

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Fair play to you Rick. Though you do certainly from time to time give out mixed messages, you can always be relied upon to give a straight, well constructed and articulate answer to a reasonably posed question.I too would not relish the choice you refer to . I just cannot see the point of publicly stating that the PL is the ''only place to be'', implying that heaven and earth will be moved to regain that status immediately. And next, putting in cheapskate policies completely at odds to that stated desire.

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That''s it, couldn''t remember.

I suppose like many of us there''s an increasing sense of dread about seeing all the brilliant work of the last few years unravel

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[quote user="Reggie Strayshun"]Fair play to you Rick. Though you do certainly from time to time give out mixed messages, you can always be relied upon to give a straight, well constructed and articulate answer to a reasonably posed question.I too would not relish the choice you refer to . I just cannot see the point of publicly stating that the PL is the ''only place to be'', implying that heaven and earth will be moved to regain that status immediately. And next, putting in cheapskate policies completely at odds to that stated desire.[/quote]Perhaps they thought that with the class of player we were investing in that any old duffer would do as manager. For the first dozen games he seemed to be doing well enough but when it got more difficult he didn''t seem able to turn it round. If you put your trust in a manager you have to give him a bit of time and not react to the first set back. Some clubs seem to be very quick on the trigger and it is no gaurantee of success.In my experience our Board usually wait for the crowd to turn only in this case they seemed, as I said yesterday, to have cocked us a deaf''un. Having said that, I think their hand will be forced within the next couple of games unless there is a dramatic improvement. I really don''t believe that the Board would be happy for the club to just poddle along in this league for the sake of being debt free. They got us out of a tight spot once, lets see if they can do it again.

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[quote user="Reggie Strayshun"]Fair play to you Rick. Though you do certainly from time to time give out mixed messages, you can always be relied upon to give a straight, well constructed and articulate answer to a reasonably posed question.I too would not relish the choice you refer to . I just cannot see the point of publicly stating that the PL is the ''only place to be'', implying that heaven and earth will be moved to regain that status immediately. And next, putting in cheapskate policies completely at odds to that stated desire.[/quote]Except that is not what they''ve done, Reggie. They gave Adams a large amount of money to spend in the summer, they authorised bringing in an outside coach in Gary Holt and the appointment of Joe Royle, which will have cost a bit. I suspect we started this season with more coaching/advisory staff (ie more salaries) than we had last season. And then instead of a cheap replacement for Mark Robson we headhunted Phelan, who certainly won''t have come cheap.It is quite possible than Adams himself came cheaper than some external candidates would have done, but we are not talking here about some prohibitive cash difference. At the most the gap between Adams'' salary and that of, say, Zola would have been in the realm of  a few hundreds of thousands a year, if that. Nothing compared to the transfer fees we have paid out. Added to which I assume we have maintained the policy of a lowish basic salary and performance-related bonuses.I cannot say this for a fact, but I very much doubt supposed cheapness was a reason for picking Adams.

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They chose the cheap option with Adams because their prefered choice (Malky) wanted too much money, to quote the comment I was told he wanted ''a ridiculous amount'' I''m not dissapointed with that because I didn''t want and don''t rate Malky.

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I''m assuming your first sentence is tongue in cheek Rick. I REALLY hope it is !!I really do not want to go down the old ''no guarantee of success by changing the manager'' debate that''s already been done to death several times over the last year.But, I''m genuinely interested in your final para. Are you saying that if we get tonked by Bournemouth and come unstuck at CR v Cardiff, the boards will be forced to act ? I wondered if they may be prepared to spare the axe a bit longer, but the more I think about it.......

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Let''s be honest if it takes the crowd turning to force the board to act when things are clearly wrong then they are quite simply not up to the job.

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[quote user="PurpleCanary"]I cannot say this for a fact, but I very much doubt supposed cheapness was a reason for picking Adams.[/quote]That''s all fine and dandy, Purple, but the original lineup was Adams , Royle, Holt and Robson. None of them bank breaking names. The admittedly more expensive Phelan appointment was very much an afterthought when things were clearly going t!ts up.Your point about transfer kitty is a bit spurious too. If you are someone who is planning on investing in a fleet of luxury cars, and need someone to source/run them,do you give the money to someone who knows next to nothing about cars or a seasoned operator in vehicle procurement ?If cheapness was not the reason for picking Adams, as you say, what then , in your opinion, was it ? Other than the ''Norwich Connection'' of course .

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[quote user="Reggie Strayshun"]I''m assuming your first sentence is tongue in cheek Rick. I REALLY hope it is !!I really do not want to go down the old ''no guarantee of success by changing the manager'' debate that''s already been done to death several times over the last year.But, I''m genuinely interested in your final para. Are you saying that if we get tonked by Bournemouth and come unstuck at CR v Cardiff, the boards will be forced to act ? I wondered if they may be prepared to spare the axe a bit longer, but the more I think about it.......[/quote]I think he is nearer to the chop than that. A poor performance at Bournemouth would be enough IMO. If it happens and he is still there for the Cardiff game then CR could turn into the Roman arena.On the other hand an unexpected victory at Dean Court followed by another 3 points against Cardiff and we could be arranging an open top bus tour of the City.As an ancient Prime Minister once said when asked what would change things, "it''s events dear boy"Neil Adams really needs an "event" pretty damn quick.

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[quote user="Reggie Strayshun"][quote user="PurpleCanary"]I cannot say this for a fact, but I very much doubt supposed cheapness was a reason for picking Adams.[/quote]That''s all fine and dandy, Purple, but the original lineup was Adams , Royle, Holt and Robson. None of them bank breaking names. The admittedly more expensive Phelan appointment was very much an afterthought when things were clearly going t!ts up.Your point about transfer kitty is a bit spurious too. If you are someone who is planning on investing in a fleet of luxury cars, and need someone to source/run them,do you give the money to someone who knows next to nothing about cars or a seasoned operator in vehicle procurement ?If cheapness was not the reason for picking Adams, as you say, what then , in your opinion, was it ? Other than the ''Norwich Connection'' of course .[/quote]Reggie, you have ignored the fact that we had an extra body - and so an extra salary - there, in Royle. I have no specific idea of the figures but any cheapness from hiring Adams was probably at least partially made up for by paying Royle. And, to repeat, any difference between a possibly cheaper Adams and a more expensive Zola or whoever paled in comparison with the millions we spent on transfers. That is why I don''t believe supposed - so far unproven - cheapness was the reason. It was an irrelevance.Why Adams? I have said this before but I suspect that once first-choice Mackay fell out of the running the directors looked around and didn''t much the look of the alternatives. To illustrate that look at our two fellow relegees. Fulham have chosen an Adams in Symons and Cardiff Russell Slade. Russell Slade?? Who as far as I can see has never managed in the top two divisions...Of course Adams was a big gamble. In crude terms he could succeed

(automatic promotion), half-succeed (the play-offs) or fail (seventh or

below). Since the top two already look out of reach then at best he will

(and I think this is likely) half-succeed. But the names now being put

forward as better alternatives, such as Warnock or Zola, would not

remotely have guaranteed a top two finish, and back in May either choice

would have been excoriated here. Lennon, the king across the water,

also represented a serious gamble (as his avoidance by other

Championship clubs attests), albeit marginally less so than that on

Adams. And on whom any sensible jury is still out.And if, say, we had picked Zola (who apparently did very much want the job) and we had been where we are now then the directors would have been rightly pilloried for having chosen mid-table mediocrity.As to the Norwich Connection, this is an exploded myth that this much-praised speech on Radio Norfolk tried to resurrect. All clubs do this from time to time but Smith and Jones''s record of going external and non-Norwich is pretty good. It is vastly better than Chase, who only once went external, and that was O''Neill, who''d had two playing spells with us. Every manager Chase picked had a Norwich connection.By contrast four of Smith and Jones'' nine have been external and with no NCFC link, Grant was external, albeit with a link, and two internals - Hamilton and Worthington - had previous managerial experience. Only Gunn and Adams have been internals bumped up with no managerial experience.Finally, since the subject of that Radio Norfolk contribution has come up, I did notice when asked for the solution the answer was to tempt Howe away from Bournemouth! In no football universe I know of could that happen. If there was any chance of doing that in the summer, which I very much doubt (and bear in mind the one time Howe left Bournemouth he failed) there is zero chance now. An idea from Fantasy Island.
In my time we have only once poached a manager from a club in the same division as us (and never from above). That was Smith and Jones poaching Lambert, and there were plainly special circumstances. We may have been temporarily in the same division as Colchester but any manager would regard us as the better long-term option. Here is the list, which will stir a few memories:Macaulay (Guildford), Reid (St Mirren), Morgan (Darlington) Saunders

(Oxford), Bond (Bournemouth), O''Neill (Wycombe), Lambert (Colchester)

and Hughton (Birmingham).

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Purple. I do not believe the Norwich connection is either a myth or been ''exploded''. Indeed Delia went out of her way to praise Adams for doing things the ''Norwich Way''. It may well be that they liked the idea of promoting from within. I do not happen to agree with it in these special circumstances, but it is certainly a policy, and not just a ''myth''.But you raise some interesting points, some I have some sympathy with,( eg the unrealism of tempting Howe from Bournemouth) ,others certainly not. You criticise Russell Slade for not having managed in the top two divisions. Well Adams had not managed in any division . Period.And I really cannot see how you can portray a quadrumverate ( does such a word exist ?!) of Adams  Royle, Holt and Robson as some sort of lavish, no expense spared, mouthwatering  management team. Everyone (almost) was totally underwhelmed when it was announced, not least 4 weeks later when Royle b*ggered off without a ball having been kicked.Of course there is just the chance that everything will click seamlessly into place in Jan-May and we''ll be gracing the Emirates, OT and Stamford Bridge again later this year, with Adams at the helm, giving much sought after news conferences on MOTD on Saturday nights. But there again........

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I generally agree Reggie. The only possible reason I can think they chose Adams was that hat the board didn''t want to deal with a challenging individual such as Lambert again. In many ways I think Lennon is of similar character to Lambert and would have made life uncomfortable for the board.

As for our debt free status, if this to be maintained I suspect our much vaunted category 1 status will soon become unsustainable or, if it is maintained, we''re set for our current squad to totally unwind and be replaced by our youth team. I suspect that means we won''t be playing PL football anytime soon.

Let''s go and beg Warnock to come today.

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[quote user="Reggie Strayshun"]Purple. I do not believe the Norwich connection is either a myth or been ''exploded''. Indeed Delia went out of her way to praise Adams for doing things the ''Norwich Way''. It may well be that they liked the idea of promoting from within. I do not happen to agree with it in these special circumstances, but it is certainly a policy, and not just a ''myth''.But you raise some interesting points, some I have some sympathy with,( eg the unrealism of tempting Howe from Bournemouth) ,others certainly not. You criticise Russell Slade for not having managed in the top two divisions. Well Adams had not managed in any division . Period.And I really cannot see how you can portray a quadrumverate ( does such a word exist ?!) of Adams  Royle, Holt and Robson as some sort of lavish, no expense spared, mouthwatering  management team. Everyone (almost) was totally underwhelmed when it was announced, not least 4 weeks later when Royle b*ggered off without a ball having been kicked.Of course there is just the chance that everything will click seamlessly into place in Jan-May and we''ll be gracing the Emirates, OT and Stamford Bridge again later this year, with Adams at the helm, giving much sought after news conferences on MOTD on Saturday nights. But there again........[/quote]Reggie, did I say that? No. I made the cogent point that in the scheme of expenditure in the summer a few hundred thousand a year, if that was what it took, was hardly going to be a factor, for the reasons I outlined. I will debate with anyone (well, nearly anyone!) but I prefer if my arguments are traduced by way of absurd exaggeration.PS. Very nearly. It is quadrumvirate...[;)]

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[quote user="PurpleCanary"]Reggie, did I say that? No. I made the cogent point that in the scheme of expenditure in the summer a few hundred thousand a year, if that was what it took, was hardly going to be a factor, for the reasons I outlined. I will debate with anyone (well, nearly anyone!) but I prefer if my arguments are traduced by way of absurd exaggeration.[/quote]Oh for heaven''s sake, Purple...stop being so damned po-faced. It''s an internet forum, not the Crown Court !Of course you did not use those exact words. Forgive me for using a bit of poetic licence to lighten the mood. Unquestionably the impression you were trying to give was that the quadrumvirate was a reasonably pricy option (esp with Royle''s salary) and I''m casting doubt on that. I notice that you are not denying my assertion that most were distinctly underwhelmed when it was unveiled. There was no WOW factor.It does seem that you are in a distinct minority in claiming cheapness was not a factor in the appointments. Or am I exaggerating that too ?

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[quote user="Reggie Strayshun"][quote user="PurpleCanary"]Reggie, did I say that? No. I made the cogent point that in the scheme of expenditure in the summer a few hundred thousand a year, if that was what it took, was hardly going to be a factor, for the reasons I outlined. I will debate with anyone (well, nearly anyone!) but I prefer if my arguments are traduced by way of absurd exaggeration.[/quote]Oh for heaven''s sake, Purple...stop being so damned po-faced. It''s an internet forum, not the Crown Court !Of course you did not use those exact words. Forgive me for using a bit of poetic licence to lighten the mood. Unquestionably the impression you were trying to give was that the quadrumvirate was a reasonably pricy option (esp with Royle''s salary) and I''m casting doubt on that. I notice that you are not denying my assertion that most were distinctly underwhelmed when it was unveiled. There was no WOW factor.It does seem that you are in a distinct minority in claiming cheapness was not a factor in the appointments. Or am I exaggerating that too ?[/quote]I wasn''t complaining that I didn''t use those exact words. I was complaining that you were vastly exaggerating (way beyond poetic licence) what I was saying, and now misrepresenting it. I wasn''t saying we had gone for a reasonably pricy option. I was saying we hadn''t done it on the cheap. Those are not the same.  I was making the point that if we had underspent on Adams (and that is unproven) we had at least partially made up for it with an extra salary in Royle and then by replacing Robson with someone almost certainly much more expensive. I think that was fairly clearly expressed.

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