In, or Out

[YankeeCanary 0]

[quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="YankeeCanary"] Neil Adams inexperience almost certainly did not contribute to the examples I spoke of here ( and they are examples ). Seasoned players know they need to be leaders also at this time and step up to the plate while the team and the manager/coaches attempt to gell. [/quote]

 
Your point is well made.  However, I''m going to take issue with you on this because the point you are making is similar to the one I made last season about the players being responsible on the pitch.  In other words if it is players who need to sort themselves out then we can''t put all the blame on the manager.   Obviously its a combination of factors at work, but last season turned because the board didn''t act in November. It was an awful couple of weeks with the Manchester games and general performances and many said he had to go then. 

Now lo and behold, we are in a similar situation in November with Adams.  Will the board act or will they do the same as last season, ride the storm, see things improve a little and then have no alternative the rest of the season but to carry on?   We were always only three or four points off where we wanted to be last season - it will probably be much the same this season.  

But who is most responsible?   I supported Hughton last season because I could see his plan - and when it worked it worked well (just not often enough) - but it was always my opinion that the players weren''t up to playing the way he wanted them to.  You can blame the manager for not getting the best out of the players or you can blame players for not being up to the task, either mentally or technically. By the end of Hughton''s reign,  the pressure just got too much for the manager and the players.  The same may happen this season. 

The difference for me is that I can''t see a cohesive plan with Adams - nor is he getting the best out of the players.  A narrow away defeat happens and yesterday in itself was not a disgrace, but the deficiencies showed by Adam''s team selections and substitutions and tactics have been obvious all season.   Players have to take some of the blame too of course as you say.  Imo Hughton was weak to the extent he didn''t boss the players enough, allowing some of them to dominate what happened, rather than himself.    Is Adams the same in that respect? If so he should go and we should get a manager in who will dominate proceedings - as Lambert did, as Pulis does, as McCarthy does. 

Its tough, but here we are in November with a similar issue - things not working on the pitch and manager under fire, players not apparently mentally or technically good enough.  Who takes the responsibility? The manager - that is why he is manager.  Who takes responsibility for the manager? The board.  Last season they stuck with the manager and we all know what happened. The brave decision last season was to stick with Hughton.  They will have to be twice as brave to stick with Adams, as they risk more wrath of the fans if things don''t work out again.   They will have to be tough, thick skinned and ruthless in pursuit of promotion. McNally talks a good game and appears tough enough.  Are the rest of the board?  I don''t know..........

This post probably belongs on the stick or twist thread, but for the board it is a gamble of the stick or twist variety. For the club''s sake I hope they make the right decision.....whichever way they go.


[/quote]

 

Lakey, imo, you repetitively make the same mistake. We are nowhere near the same situation we were last season. Hughton was not "learning his trade" at Norwich. He was an experienced manager that took us backwards. Adams is new to this senior management game. The club knows that, the players know that. They all knew that going in and, just as importantly, we know that! Good fortune may not ultimately go well for Neil Adams in the period of time he is manager at Norwich but I will be very surprised ( and I will admit it ) if the Board makes a determination that the time to make that assessment is now. You made a lot of noise over the past couple of years about the importance  ( even on a message board ) of staying positive and fighting through adversity. I know you have admitted to "turning" very quickly from the last result to this one. Well, guess what? I''m asking you to reconsider very carefully, and turn again. Let''s show what we are made of Lakey. We can be allies on this one.

[osborne 1-0 0]

What are you on about man? in, in, in !!!!!!!

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="YankeeCanary"]

[quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="YankeeCanary"] Neil Adams inexperience almost certainly did not contribute to the examples I spoke of here ( and they are examples ). Seasoned players know they need to be leaders also at this time and step up to the plate while the team and the manager/coaches attempt to gell. [/quote]

Now lo and behold, we are in a similar situation in November with Adams.  [/quote]

 Lakey, imo, you repetitively make the same mistake. We are nowhere near the same situation we were last season. Hughton was not "learning his trade" at Norwich. He was an experienced manager that took us backwards. Adams is new to this senior management game. The club knows that, the players know that. They all knew that going in and, just as importantly, we know that! Good fortune may not ultimately go well for Neil Adams in the period of time he is manager at Norwich but I will be very surprised ( and I will admit it ) if the Board makes a determination that the time to make that assessment is now. You made a lot of noise over the past couple of years about the importance  ( even on a message board ) of staying positive and fighting through adversity. I know you have admitted to "turning" very quickly from the last result to this one. Well, guess what? I''m asking you to reconsider very carefully, and turn again. Let''s show what we are made of Lakey. We can be allies on this one.[/quote]

Boy, you don''t half get the wrong end of the stick.   I made it plain that the situation is the same as last season in regards to a decision being made whether to keep the manager or not.....nothing else.   It was exactly at this time last year when many people were shouting for the manager''s head, after that week in Manchester.  I could not have made it clearer that that is what I was referring to.  

As to me joining the "out" bandwagon - I''ve already explained that.   Even Hughton had a plan - a method - even if it was flawed and ultimately failed.  Adams may have more nous than I give him credit for, but watching most of the matches there is no discipline or tactical awareness going on to defend.   Every match I''ve seen this season (been to four and watched others on line when possible) I''ve seen it, every report, every commentator has noted we are susceptible on the break.  Wolves.  Watford (we were nearly undone in the first three minutes) Blackburn,  Cardiff, Birmningham, Blackpool, Charlton, Rotherham, Leeds, Bolton, Middlesbrough, Notts Forest. 

No response. Still players gung ho going for a winner - too far up the pitch in too many numbers - every match.  What made it worse yesterday, was that there was no help for the midfield, tiring in the second half  against a fresh legged Forest, all three subs on to jee them up, while we didn''t bring on a Redmond with instructions to tighten the hold on midfield.    Where is the evidence of work done to learn how to cover, defend, track back etc etc?   There isn''t any..............

So yes, I supported him, hoping he would show signs of reacting....but yesterday there were none.  We got a goal away from home.....and with our apparent ability to play the ball around, we should have been content to kill the game and hope to get a second on the break.....but how could we do that if the manager didn''t send out the signals or the players to do that?   We seem to just go for goals and there is no plan B.......oh wait a minute........

[YankeeCanary 0]

[quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="YankeeCanary"]

[quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="YankeeCanary"] Neil Adams inexperience almost certainly did not contribute to the examples I spoke of here ( and they are examples ). Seasoned players know they need to be leaders also at this time and step up to the plate while the team and the manager/coaches attempt to gell. [/quote]


Now lo and behold, we are in a similar situation in November with Adams. 
[/quote]

 Lakey, imo, you repetitively make the same mistake. We are nowhere near the same situation we were last season. Hughton was not "learning his trade" at Norwich. He was an experienced manager that took us backwards. Adams is new to this senior management game. The club knows that, the players know that. They all knew that going in and, just as importantly, we know that! Good fortune may not ultimately go well for Neil Adams in the period of time he is manager at Norwich but I will be very surprised ( and I will admit it ) if the Board makes a determination that the time to make that assessment is now. You made a lot of noise over the past couple of years about the importance  ( even on a message board ) of staying positive and fighting through adversity. I know you have admitted to "turning" very quickly from the last result to this one. Well, guess what? I''m asking you to reconsider very carefully, and turn again. Let''s show what we are made of Lakey. We can be allies on this one.[/quote]

Boy, you don''t half get the wrong end of the stick.   I made it plain that the situation is the same as last season in regards to a decision being made whether to keep the manager or not.....nothing else.   It was exactly at this time last year when many people were shouting for the manager''s head, after that week in Manchester.  I could not have made it clearer that that is what I was referring to.  

As to me joining the "out" bandwagon - I''ve already explained that.   Even Hughton had a plan - a method - even if it was flawed and ultimately failed.  Adams may have more nous than I give him credit for, but watching most of the matches there is no discipline or tactical awareness going on to defend.   Every match I''ve seen this season (been to four and watched others on line when possible) I''ve seen it, every report, every commentator has noted we are susceptible on the break.  Wolves.  Watford (we were nearly undone in the first three minutes) Blackburn,  Cardiff, Birmningham, Blackpool, Charlton, Rotherham, Leeds, Bolton, Middlesbrough, Notts Forest. 

No response. Still players gung ho going for a winner - too far up the pitch in too many numbers - every match.  What made it worse yesterday, was that there was no help for the midfield, tiring in the second half  against a fresh legged Forest, all three subs on to jee them up, while we didn''t bring on a Redmond with instructions to tighten the hold on midfield.    Where is the evidence of work done to learn how to cover, defend, track back etc etc?   There isn''t any..............

So yes, I supported him, hoping he would show signs of reacting....but yesterday there were none.  We got a goal away from home.....and with our apparent ability to play the ball around, we should have been content to kill the game and hope to get a second on the break.....but how could we do that if the manager didn''t send out the signals or the players to do that?   We seem to just go for goals and there is no plan B.......oh wait a minute........

[/quote]

 

Lakey, my dear boy, not only are you unable to hold your nerve for longer than a day without reversing yourself now you are losing your ability to understand a simple point of why this November is not the same as last November. First, let''s review your loss of nerve again( your statement prior to the Forest match was NOT let''s see what the next game or two brings....it was, I repeat your quote, "So I would say hold your nerve, stick with what we''ve got - we have a good structure in place - evolving might take a while, but stability is something that is important and from it can come improvement.   The Newcastle owner Ashley has stood his ground against the fans wanting Pardue out and it looks as if he may turn it round.    Pressure comes from fans and the media.  Boards have to be strong - very strong and decisive.   Decisive sometimes means sticking rather than twisting....." In other words, in 90 minutes you lost the nerve that you were encouraging all others to have. It doesn''t matter that you explained yourself. Your position went from what was highlighted here to "Adams out" after 90 minutes of football. 

Now, you are also losing your ability to reason.To your credit, I agree that there is, indeed a stick and, yes, there is a wrong half. Where you go wrong is that it is your hand that''s firmly grasping it. I understood fully what you stated but, I repeat, what you stated, imo, is wrong. You are assuming the Board is sitting there weighing a decision at the moment. If the Board a) imminently makes a decision to change or b) puts out a statement that immediate improvement is required or change will have to be made then, and only then, will you have something to go on. The facts regarding last November is in the history books. No change was made despite some fairly clear evidence that we were not progressing but regressing under an experienced manager. This time around the Board KNEW they were appointing an inexperienced manager and neither you or I ( or any of the other posters calling for Neil Adams head ) were party to the content of the discussion that took place between McNally ( & the Board ) when Adams was given the role. If we are going to assume negative things, as you appear to be doing, why don''t we assume the Board knew there were issues with a number of players that needed to be sorted, and said to Neil something like, "We''ll go in a different direction and see where it takes us during the first half, and recruit where we need added strength in January but don''t worry Neil, regardless of what happens this whole season is yours to manage." Now, of course, that''s an assumption too but it''s a reasonable one given that the Board persevered last time around with EXPERIENCE and it didn''t work. They then DELIBERATELY follow that with appointing an inexperienced manager. Do you honestly believe they did not know the risks and were prepared to fire him after a third of the season when we are clearly going through significant change on the playing front? This is not Leeds United and we don''t have Italian owners who are conditioned to changing their government every other week if they are in the mood. 

[Nexus_Canary 1,016]

Lets wait for Villa to sack Lambo then make a choice ;-)

[TIL 1010 4,737]

I feel it is time for the sofa and a bag of popcorn. [:P]

[Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB 1,023]

I suppose it is too much to ask that posters just stick to the question and required (one word) answer, there are plenty of other threads aviable to undertake a more detailed discussion......

[YankeeCanary 0]

[quote user="Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB"]

I suppose it is too much to ask that posters just stick to the question and required (one word) answer, there are plenty of other threads aviable to undertake a more detailed discussion......

[/quote]

 

You have a point, SOB, but we are 9 pages later. How many times do you want to see the word "out" before you are satisfied?

[nutty nigel 7,528]

I''m pleased we have a forum where posters try and qualify their opinions with reasons. One word posts would be duller than the binner''s last trophy...

 

 

[lake district canary 4,531]

@Yankee.Your failure to accept a simplistic comparison between this November and last November in terms of a fan rebellion due to two particularly bad results and subsequent demands, certainly on here, for the manager''s head are one thing.   Your insistence and quite typical attempts to deflect away from that by trying to interrogate my motives and question my decisions are irrelevant.  I changed my mind after watching yet another match where we were once again inept. End of. 

I am of course well aware that the ins and outs of these two seasons are different, but my comparison statement stands any scrutiny you care to give it. It is surely not  complicated to understand?   Regardless of the reasons, the different characters and circumstances, fans are calling for the manager''s head like they did this time last year.   If you want to carry on trying to dissect it, put your own prejudices on it, try to catch me out on it, or do any other thing you want to do with it, that point is pretty much indisputable. 

[YankeeCanary 0]

[:D][:D][:D] Lakey, you do make me smile.

You can write new sentences, try to make them clever, pretend you are above all the rhetoric but. Lakey, there''s one thing you can''t do unless you have an insider scrubbing your past posts, and that is you can''t rewrite your own history on this forum. Fan rebellion in November last year? That''s not how I remember it. There were mixed opinions with a growing trend on the restlessness side because we were regressing. However, my friend, you were not rebelling, were you? You had unwavering support for Hughton at that time. You only attempted to put a different slant on your own history much later by suggesting that if we were to have taken action and let Hughton go then November was the time and the Board chose not to. As I recall, there you were still in April of this year suggesting there was a basis for retaining Hughton for a third season. I did not raise Hughton on this thread. Neither did any other poster, except you. It must still stick in your craw somehow. Why? Let it go. We''re all wrong sometimes.

 

As for interrogating your motives, questioning your decisions etc, that is simply your attempt to deflect. I''m neither doing that nor interested in that. I am simply reacting to what you post in your own words. End of. What I am interested in is pointing out that when a poster who eloquently tries to convince all other posters that we should hold our nerve, have stability, not react to pressure from the fans and media, that a Board needs to be strong and decisive , that managers can improve etc., only to change his mind to the exact opposite direction 90 minutes of football later, that others should treat such a posters strong input with at least a dose of skepticism. The good thing, Lakey, is that you put a brake on yourself this season by self-imposing a financial penalty if you initiate a thread. Last season, of course, there was no such joy as you held to your positive conviction regarding Hughton on new thread after new thread, by the hundreds. It really is joyful this time around, and with it you showing newfound flexibility to be able to spin on a dime. I should be grateful.    

 

 

[Tumbleweed 106]

In. For now.

I do have my reasons..............

[lake district canary 4,531]

@YankeeI mentioned Hughton once in passing as a comparison to something that happened last season.  It was you who took umbridge at that.  I may be fickle - last November after the two Manchester results this board was in uproar about getting Hughton out - and at that stage I was too. Then things change.   As for a third season under Hughton, if he had kept us up, if he had improved things to enable us to stay up, then yes - why not.  There is even an argument to say that he would also have been quite good at getting us back up again, having gone down. But obviously, he had outstayed his welcome and things had gone too sour for that ever to have happened. 

Adams is in charge and is struggling - perhaps there are more similar parallels than you would like to think.  Players not doing their jobs, etc etc.   I see nothing wrong with comparing Adams with previous managers - and also I couldn''t care less if I was right or wrong on any particular issue, whether it is about Hughton, Lambert or Adams.  I follow the club with the same emotional responses as anyone else and my opinions will reflect that.   What surprises me is the way other fans are so certain that they are right, stick to their guns religiously.  Last season it was Hughton had to be out at all costs for some of you.  For me it was a mixed bag - he could have gone in November - but improved enough to suggest he could keep us up.  He could have gone in January - why? Because of the Fulham game. Apart from that one match, his home record had become reasonably good - and stayed that way until April when the pressure got too much for him and the players.  I wanted him out in November. He stayed, so I got behind him - things improved a bit so that support seemed justified to me. He could have gone in January - when he didn''t I supported the board''s decision and like it or not, our home record was quite good from then on - but still there was a constant barrage of  "Hughton out" - people stuck in a mind set.  You will no doubt try to say I was like a stuck record with my views/threads etc, but overall, I changed my views last season depending on circumstances.  It was the Hughton outers who were like a stuck record.

So yes, I''ve changed my mind over Adams - probably an emotional decision based on too many disappointments.  Supporting a club for me isn''t just getting into a mind set and sticking with it regardless of circumstances - which is what a lot of people did last season (and imo that did not help the club) - it is a changing melee of emotions.  If all supporting a club boils down to is "Hooton out" or "Adams out" then you can keep it.   If Adams stays and turns it round, I will be as delighted as anyone and will get behind him and support him again.   But for me, at this moment in time it is a definite out. 

[Tumbleweed 106]

Surely there are more positives already with NA than there were under Hughton? Lets not forget that the latter started with a 0-5 defeat at Fulham and barring the now near-legendary 10 game unbeaten run his reign was almost entirely cr@p. So it is odd to give him time but NA not?

[Reggie Strayshun 0]

When, back in the summer I decided to give this forum a rest, it was partly to do with unforseen family and work commitments, partly because I''d publicly stated that , despite my concerns about the Adams regime I was prepared to give it a decent crack of the whip, and I thought that continuing to post after every game would be counter productive to that, and partly because I was getting rather peed off with the kind of arguing we see above...ie who said what, when and what people REALLY meant, but others had decided to twist the meaning, etc etc etc.For my part, as a relative bystander these days, I personally welcome Lakey''s recent Road to Damascus conversion. I do not see it as something to be carped about or criticised in any way. It''s good to see that he is taking a more pragmatic and flexible approach to these kind of matters . He, like me, and I suspect thousands of others, were very sceptical about Adams''s appointment, but prepared to give this whole setup the benefit of the doubt . at firset, it looked promising, but as time has worn on, serious cracks have begun to appear; so much so that there must be a real possibility that the thing is now holed beneath the waterline, and when that happens, the ability to change ones mind , as opposed to blundering on with ones head in the sand is something to be given credit for.We can only hope that the board take a similarly enlightened and flexible view and act before the club not only falls away from the promotion picture, but indeed starts to flirt with the relegation dogfight.

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="Tumbleweed"]Surely there are more positives already with NA than there were under Hughton? Lets not forget that the latter started with a 0-5 defeat at Fulham and barring the now near-legendary 10 game unbeaten run his reign was almost entirely cr@p. So it is odd to give him time but NA not?[/quote]

The positives have all but disappeared.  The force or luck was with us earlier in the season, but that is all we seemingly had - a bit of  luck and a bit of enthusiasm.   That has all but gone.   The next game is a huge one for Adams now. 

[paul moy 235]

Give him and the players the next two games to prove that they are all in it together, so IN for now. No improvement must mean OUT.

[Mr Jenkins 0]

LDC

"The positives have all but disappeared. The force or luck was with us earlier in the season, but that is all we seemingly had - a bit of luck and a bit of enthusiasm. That has all but gone. The next game is a huge one for Adams now. "

Hold on there, can''t let you get away with saying we were lucky earlier on in the season, far from it, if anything the luck was against us.

I have concluded that I think. Neil should go, but I certainly wouldn''t be so unfair as to say he had been lucky earlier in the season.

[YankeeCanary 0]

 

 

Lakey, this is what you say you said in November of last year, "after the two Manchester results this board was in uproar about getting Hughton out - and at that stage I was too."

Show me your post where you said that ( with a November/2013 date on it ) and, if it exists I will offer you my profound apologies.

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="YankeeCanary"]

 Lakey, this is what you say you said in November of last year, "after the two Manchester results this board was in uproar about getting Hughton out - and at that stage I was too."

Show me your post where you said that ( with a November/2013 date on it ) and, if it exists I will offer you my profound apologies.

[/quote]Post I started after the Man Utd away cup match end of October 2013 -http://services.pinkun.com/forums/pinkun/cs/forums/3007250/ShowPost.aspxCan''t find a direct post from me saying "Hooton out", but I haven''t got all day to look.  I remember being more annoyed at the Man Utd cup game and must have lost patience at that point - post halfway down the page indicating I had joined "the dark side" -http://services.pinkun.com/forums/pinkun/cs/forums/3006987/ShowPost.aspxI admit I went back to supporting Hughton the following week after the West Ham game.  That was the key game of the season up to that point. Lose that and all positivity would have gone.  But we won it. Wiz started a thread "Will beating West Ham relegate us".   It may well have done.Adams has it all to do.  The next game is crucial.

[nutty nigel 7,528]

Im confused now Lakey. Are you saying winning it is crucial or losing it is crucial?

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]Im confused now Lakey. Are you saying winning it is crucial or losing it is crucial?[/quote]

I don''t know [:S]  

Winning or losing is crucial to Adams'' future, probably. 

[El Convento 14]

In

[YankeeCanary 0]

[quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="YankeeCanary"]

 Lakey, this is what you say you said in November of last year, "after the two Manchester results this board was in uproar about getting Hughton out - and at that stage I was too."

Show me your post where you said that ( with a November/2013 date on it ) and, if it exists I will offer you my profound apologies.

[/quote]

Post I started after the Man Utd away cup match end of October 2013 -

http://services.pinkun.com/forums/pinkun/cs/forums/3007250/ShowPost.aspx

Can''t find a direct post from me saying "Hooton out", but I haven''t got all day to look.  I remember being more annoyed at the Man Utd cup game and must have lost patience at that point - post halfway down the page indicating I had joined "the dark side" -

http://services.pinkun.com/forums/pinkun/cs/forums/3006987/ShowPost.aspx

I admit I went back to supporting Hughton the following week after the West Ham game.  That was the key game of the season up to that point. Lose that and all positivity would have gone.  But we won it. Wiz started a thread "Will beating West Ham relegate us".   It may well have done.

Adams has it all to do.  The next game is crucial.



[/quote]

 

Lakey, what you have provided does not require me to offer profound apologies. However, I do want to sincerely thank you for going to the trouble of looking. Therefore, I will call a truce on the subject. Now let''s hope the club can start to string some results together and we can ALL get back to supporting Neil Adams and the team.

[TIL 1010 4,737]

Can you two get a room ? [;)]

[River End Canary 0]

Only the sacking of mcnasty the appointment of Paul Faulkner and the second coming of the Messiah can save our season.

[John tree 0]

[quote user="John thaw"]Only the sacking of mcnasty the appointment of Paul Faulkner and the second coming of the Messiah can save our season.[/quote]

Spot on no right minded Canary can argue with this approach

[lappinitup 629]

Ha! Both together. [:D]Waveney Canary / Canary from the Waveney Valley / Thorpe End Canary / River End Canary / Marvin Fairlady / Mike Hunt / Lowestoft Canary / Norwich4life / Herr Flick / Humpty the canary / Newton / Wizard of Waveney / Canary fun and games / Haven Canary / Lowestoft Determined Canary / flake district canary / Down in the Chumps / Adnams Out / Cheap Cheap Canaries / What Crisis? / Fluffy Bunny / Mankey Monkey / Tufty Squirrel / Even Keel  / King street canary / Chestnut canary / Ellie Goulding / Jeff butler / John thaw / John tree

[River End Canary 0]

Great to hear someone who still respects what Lamber did for the club.

[TIL 1010 4,737]

[quote user="John tree"][quote user="John thaw"]Only the sacking of mcnasty the appointment of Paul Faulkner and the second coming of the Messiah can save our season.[/quote] Spot on no right minded Canary can argue with this approach[/quote]

You really must stop talking to yourself Waveney.