Russell Martin is a Centre Back

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,219]

In light of his excellent performances at centre back at International level for Scotland, David Powles in the EDP asks whether it is the Captaincy at Norwich that weighs Russell Martin down. The following is from August:

"There is a difference between better-than-the championship and good-enough-for-the-premier. They are not necessarily the same thing, and one does not necessarily prove the other."

We are also learning about the players we have and perhaps better able to contextualise their abilities and strengths in a more balanced way than when in the maelstrom of premier decline.

Arguably the best player so far this year is Michael Turner. I think it is interesting and instructive to compare and contrast him with Russell Martin in respect of the above phrase and in terms of what fans do and don''t see.

Turner himself has stated that he feels comfortable and well suited to this league. He is dominant and has weapons to defend against the adversaries he finds here. Opposition attackers are typically big, strong and attack central areas, looking to burst through channels, feed off knock downs and second balls and get on the end on frequent, high crosses. Balls cone into the box from (sometimes well) outside it and even the best championship players he is up against (say Rhodes) stand on his toes and knock up against him. He has all of the attributes to deal with this and his performances grow in line with his confidence. Expect him to return to scoring ways from set pieces in the near future and score half a dozen during the season.

Russell Martin divides opinion. Many feel we require further defensive recruitment in the centre and on the right side. He is respected as steady, reliable and a good club captain.

I feel he is a great example of the reverse of the quoted phrase.

Whereas Turner is an example of the best model that existed as a template for British defenders five or ten years ago, Martin is a reasonable example of a modern defender moving into the future. Contrary to what many believe, Martin is undoubtedly a centre back.

His skills - positioning, fluidity of movement, comfort on the ball, playing between the lines in a defensive sense - is the benchmark for better premier defenders. He allows teams -regardless how they are set up tactically - to play with three players in the defensive line (or even two depending on the midfield screen, but that''s a more advanced chapter). He covers the crucial space between centre back and full back naturally and instinctively, moving even wider if necessary. He also steps and tracks players into 3/4 areas, which old-school centre backs fear.

Thus Martin may be considered a better footballer, but can contemporarily be far less effective than Turner at this level. Conversely Turner may make more notable (eye-catching clearances, last-ditch tackles) contributions in the Premier, but be less beneficial to tactical shape than Martin, who is better suited to dealing with the positions taken up by an Aguero or Silva. Such players do not come and still on anybody''s toes.

Thus - thinking forwards - we should maintain Martin at Centre back, even though he may get caught out in 2D strength and height battles against an Assombalonga for example. Turner will mostly take care of such players and few sides will have two of them. I would thus encourage Martin to not only follow strikers into 3/4 areas, but use the lower level of the second tier to step into these areas with the ball and develop his distribution.

Parma

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[? 0]

Good post as usual Parma, but if what you say holds true, why on earth did the manager/board sanction the signing of a further three CB''s when Martin was already here?

Watching the Eng-Scot game I thought Martin did quite well at CB and if he could continue that form for us he would undoubtably be a first choice for that position. My biggest concern with regard to Martin is that, is he really Captain material? For me he doesn''t come across as a natural leader in the football sense with the ability to motivate and get the team fired up as someone like Holt used to do.

OTBC

[Holtcantshoot 0]

He was OK for Scotland in a game where they conceded 3 goals against a very average England team. Souness''s assessment of Rooney''s performance on Tuesday night was as follows: “I would not get too carried away with Rooney

scoring two goals against Scotland, he is playing against Championship

players tonight."That for me is a fair description of our two ex-Premier League defenders playing in that game and goes a long way to explain why we have dropped to 10th and conceded 6 in our last two games.And contrary to your statement that he is "comfortable on the ball" I find he looks very uncomfortable on the ball at centre back and his and Turner''s slow and awkward distribution out of the back are part and parcel of the teams inability to play free flowing attacking football.Additionally his poor reading of the game are part of the reason for both our own, and Scotland''s shaky defence. When the game went back to 2-1 and England needed to score they carved through the Scots (and Brighton born "Scotsman" Martin) like a knife through butter.

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,219]

It''s a re-hash truthfully Ron, but EDP journals have a tendency for the simplistic... So thought it worth a re-visit even though it''s half a year old...it''s a direct answer to Powles'' question...

Re the Captaincy point, I see where you are coming from, but there is an element that players see/feel that is hard to gauge from the sidelines... Much like animals, players instinctively know their place in the quality pecking order.. Martin has a pedigree game suited to a higher level, other players respect this. Let''s not exaggerate, he''s not Ferdinand or Pique or Cannavaro, but the way he plays is Premier League suited. It is to the great detriment (I would say embarrassment) of British football, that we don''t make many defenders like him.*

(*by like him I mean the ability to play between the lines as a counterpoint to the kind of fluid forward I like to see / England is trying to create).

That this has limited currency in the Championship is accepted.

In answer to your multi-centre back purchases point, I must say I have no real answer. There are some on tee weight arguments: only 1 recognised right back in Whittaker so need cover, Whittaker not great so Martin may need to play there, Bennett injured, Turner the only Champ-style defender so need cover, Hoiveld good added goalscoring option, Ignasi likely to increase in value with some (even a few) games....

However not sure any of this couldn''t be solved by buying a Good right back in the first place...

...so 1-0 to Ron on that one I would say....

Parma

[? 0]

Lol thanks Parma!

Agree, cover for Whittaker would have been a better option, with a degree of hindsight where I''m concerned because I thought Hooiveld was an inspired signing. Maybe he will be, time will tell, well for one season at least!

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="Ron Manager"]Lol thanks Parma!

Agree, cover for Whittaker would have been a better option, with a degree of hindsight where I''m concerned because I thought Hooiveld was an inspired signing. Maybe he will be, time will tell, well for one season at least![/quote]

Cuellar is also a right back and could play there, although he is primarily a centre back. I agree a right back cover would be sensible, but the options are there with what we''ve got.   On top form both Martin and Whittaker are good enough players for this league imo.   What about Miquel though? Where does he fit in? 

[GJP 79]

Martin is alright at this level but gets found out in the Prem. This stuff about him being more suited to the Prem because of his style doesn''t really hold much water, in my opinion.

 

As for being captain... hard to see much improvement since he took over from Bassong. We''ve been prone to slow starts and lack lustre performances. Where was the leadership when we let that 1-0 slip at Forest?

 

I used to be quite a big fan of Martin but I just don''t think he''s a good enough player to have got himself into the position of being undroppable - which it looks like he is.

 

 

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,219]

GJP, what you see is Martin drifting into between the line positions, often fruitlessly in this league admittedly, often to cover for Whittakers forays forward, where he often overlaps and shuts space down for Redmond, or even encourages him to slow to wait for the overlap.

Not only is this not necessary, Redmond is a better attacking weapon from deeper. We are / would be more effectively in attacking sense by allowing teams onto us a little more and counterattacking ourselves.

Thus Whittaker does work that doesn''t need doing, while Msttin covers for problems that don''t need to be there...

Parma

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,219]

...and all of that would matter less if we retained a disciplined deep midfield central pivot at all times....

... Instead the combination of the former attacking shape, plus the lack of autistic adherence to the midfield role above, plus Redmond''s tactical weakness, leads us to bring counterattacking regularly through that shape by inferior sides...

Parma

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,219]

...and none of that implies that Martin isn''t also the best right back we have, he is....

...just that some are conflating cause with effect...

Parma

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="Parma Hams gone mouldy"]...and all of that would matter less if we retained a disciplined deep midfield central pivot at all times....

... Instead the combination of the former attacking shape, plus the lack of autistic adherence to the midfield role above, plus Redmond''s tactical weakness, leads us to bring counterattacking regularly through that shape by inferior sides...

Parma[/quote]

Love it. You have a rare gift with the English language, Parma.   Sums up our situation neatly and succinctly. A disciplined pivot in the midfield we don''t have.  Johnson just doesn''t do it, neither does Tettey.   It would take a single minded manager/coach to instil those qualities in a player we already have - and it would need that player to buy in to the concept too.   I wonder whether Phelan will instigate something like this.......or maybe it is the manager is the man who decides this kind of policy/game play, in which case we may not see it under Adams. 

[mrs miggins 0]

It can''t be that hard to say "oi Tettey, stay back while we''re attacking yeah" ...can it?

[Dubai Mark 0]

The CB or RB argument will go on and on I''m sure, I just accept that he is good enough at this level to play either role. As for him being Captain material, we as fans just dont get to see the bigger picture on this and what impact he has on the team, not just on the field but off it too and, have no idea what the other players think of him etc

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="mrs miggins"]It can''t be that hard to say "oi Tettey, stay back while we''re attacking yeah" ...can it?[/quote]

That is where I like the use of the word "autistic".  It implies a heightened beyond imagination approach to the role that Parma is talking about.  It needs to be an obsessive attention to playing a specific role like that.     Makalele was a prime example a few years ago.    Never doing anything more than holding and partrolling a position then passing neatly to one of his own team.    Effective and admired for it.  Its a specialised position and needs someone with a lot of discipline to do it - and the desire of the manager to insist on it.

[Mr Jenkins 0]

Jonno plays that role in front of the back four and keeps his position most of the time. It''s not a glamourous role but he does it. Unfortunately I don''t think we have anyone else who has the same disciplin.

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,219]

Strangely it is hard Mrs M,

Human psychology ensures that we revert back to our default settings when under pressure or in stressful situations.

So it is with footballers.

They all have instinctive tendencies for positioning, grooved movements, danger or opportunity awareness, plus (and sometimes most importantly) their natural overriding personality traits. Selflessness might be ideal in the disciplined deep midfield pivot, whilst the opposite might be a good trait for your poacher.

Knowing all of this, understanding the very essence of your players adds huge value, whilst ensuring (in the best managers) that they assign the right jobs to the right characteristics, not merely the apparent ability to do the job.

Ironically you could shout at Tettey a million times and it would make no difference under pressure....now if you new the above and grooved new neural pathways in order to achieve the discipline on the field.......

Parma

[The Judge 0]

Sorry Parma, don''t agree with analysis at all, though of course you are just as entitled to your opinion as me.

In my view Russell Martin is poor at centre back and very average at right back and not a leader on the pitch which your captain should be.

Positionally at both centre back and right back he goes ''wandering'' in his desire to get forward leaving massive holes for the other defenders to try and fill, and with Turner being so slow generally leads to us being caught out by swift counter attacks. In addition he physically isn''t big or strong enough to play at centre back being out jumped and out muscled at set pieces regularly. In my opinion he tends to give the attacker too much space by standing off allowing them to basically do what they want, cross, shoot, pass. 90% of his passes are backwards or sidewards generally putting the player he passes to under pressure.

As a ''defender'' he is actually eye catching going forwards, which in turn causes a lot of the problems mentioned above, but call me old fashioned but I prefer my defenders to be able defend first and foremost, anything else is a bonus.

we haven''t had a decent right back since Kyle Naughton was here on loan and is an area we definately need to strengthen in the transfer window, and when Bennett gets fit he would definately be my preference to partner Turner at centre back and Cuellar, Miguel, or Hooiveld should be above Martin for that second CB position in my view.

Appreciate this comes across as abit of a player assassination totally at the other end of the spectrum from your RM love in and as a person Russell seems a decent enough bloke but in my view there are definately better options within our squad - definately at centre back..

I sure the Russell Martin fan club will slate me for this post but the game is about opinions you have posted yours I have posted mine...

[mrs miggins 0]

Personally think Russel Martin is a very good RB at this level, for me he''s very solid. When he gets forward he gets forward at the right times, doesn''t hold onto the ball for too long and is good defensively at RB in this league, whereas Whitts is very average at these things; he''s not good at going forwards despite doing so as he tries to affect the game, which he really doesn''t have the ability to do.

However, the the topic is Russell at CB. Firstly for me the CBs are too far apart to start with (not blaming Russ for that) and because they aren''t the fastest it becomes a problem. Martin has done well bringing the ball out of defence on a couple of occasions, but when it comes to the defending part, well, at CB it''s a bit of a worry. There''s always that lack of awareness of position at certain moments in the game, perhaps because he''s played RB his whole career except for Scotland I''m not too sure.

Therefore have we got a better CB? - yes, Hooiveld, Cuellar.

As we can''t play them with Turner, the other option is: Trying Miquel out. If he''s terrible then we have to resort to the current defensive option we have now before bennett (and bassong but he''s probably long gone) come back.

[Holtcantshoot 0]

[quote user="mrs miggins"]Personally think Russel Martin is a very good RB at this level, for me he''s very solid. When he gets forward he gets forward at the right times, doesn''t hold onto the ball for too long and is good defensively at RB in this league, whereas Whitts is very average at these things; he''s not good at going forwards despite doing so as he tries to affect the game, which he really doesn''t have the ability to do.

However, the the topic is Russell at CB. Firstly for me the CBs are too far apart to start with (not blaming Russ for that) and because they aren''t the fastest it becomes a problem. Martin has done well bringing the ball out of defence on a couple of occasions, but when it comes to the defending part, well, at CB it''s a bit of a worry. There''s always that lack of awareness of position at certain moments in the game, perhaps because he''s played RB his whole career except for Scotland I''m not too sure.

Therefore have we got a better CB? - yes, Hooiveld, Cuellar.

As we can''t play them with Turner, the other option is: Trying Miquel out. If he''s terrible then we have to resort to the current defensive option we have now before bennett (and bassong but he''s probably long gone) come back.[/quote]I''d agree with this sentiment on Martin''s lack of awareness at RB and for me I don''t think Turner looks comfortable on the left side of the central defence either which also weakens the team. Personally I believe our best defence is as follows: LB Olsson, RB Martin, RCB Turner. We then need to decide who out of Bennett / Hooiveld / Miguel / Cuellar is most suited to playing the left side of central defence. The continued swapping around of Martin and other players at centre back is making our team look unsettled. Adams needs to decide on his best defensive line-up and stick with it.