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Bassong to Palace?

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[quote user="Dean Coneys boots"]But whose theory IS the Big Bang?

That will be Father Georges Lemaitre - freind of Einstein and devout Belgian priest.

The father of genetics Mendel was also a believer as was the man who cracked the genome.

So the argument that faith disproves science is just wrong. They do different things and contribute one to the other.[/quote]I agree. It''s not the argument that I''m making though as science is very important. It helps us understand the human body so we can produce medicines. It has helped us grasp aerodynaics so that we can travell to the far reaches of the globe in a matter of hours via aeroplane. However the big bang theory (nothing exploding and creating everything) is un-scientific, as nothing can create only one thing, nothing. Even Richard Dawkins has admitted such when he stated that "the ''nothing'' we talk about is actually ''something''". What he refuses to believe is that the ''something'' that created the universe is the God of the Bible. Where as I realise that creation is all the evidence that we need of a Creator. Buildings do not build themselves. There are no explosions in car factories that produce Audis. Animals do not just spontaneously appear. Someone (or thing) is involved in the creation of buildings, vehicles and living beings.Which brings us to the next question that you''ve brought up Lappinitup about who created God. There obviously can''t be an infinite amount of creators. No one created God, He exists outside of time and space. How do I know? Because He created time and space, and because of this it means He always was. Something had to be there to start everything off. The laws of physics state this, you can not create anything from nothing, there must be something there in the first place. This must be true for the beginning of the universe as it is true for the universe as we know it now. If it were not true, it would mean that the laws of physics would be changing all of the time and they don''t they stay constant. 

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[quote user="Buh"]It doesn''t matter what the personal belief so an individual are in science. All that matters is the evidence gathered and how it is presented. I could care less what Einstein believed in on a personal level. What''s important is what he left behind. His words can be mis-interpreted, his lifestyle altered or doctored but his theories and body of work are there. The universe is a beautiful and magnificent thing, the way it works is extraordinary and it is all the more extraordinary because there is no god. It''s more beautiful. And please don''t insult all of our intelligence with the "he works in mysterious ways" BS. Singing songs and believing in fairies does not get you eternal life, it''s a ploy.[/quote]

 

So it''s all about evidence gathered and how it''s presented, so what about Dark Matter and Dark Energy? We can only infer their existance from the testable results of various theories that are currently accepted as accurate, however, we don''t know what they are, how they work or how they interact with the matter which we can perceive, despite this it forms a corner stone of physics. It is being presented as some exotic matter (WIMPs or somesuch) and some total unknown force permiating everything, which is kind of what religions claim of god, how do we know that through the detection of dark matter and dark energy we aren''t actually seeing first hand (well second hand) ''god'' and it''s influence on the physical universe? For all we know ''god'' or dark matter could be a sentient being or beings that are physically creating the dark energy that maintains the expansion of the universe, holds the galaxies together and generally means that everything works as it does (and was created into the forms we now see)...

 

I''m not religious in any way shape or form, I would describe myself as an agnostic because I know that I don''t know for certain that there isn''t some form of higher being, it doesn''t matter how much science or observation we do, we still do not know everything, we are constantly discovering new things that change our understanding and cause the models to be refined, theories to be reworked and ideas to be reconsidered. Evangelical atheists are as bad as religious zealots, they have closed their minds off to the chance of their being something there that doesn''t fit the model of life and the universe that they have accepted and built their castle on.

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Just to be clear, I''m not saying that Dark Matter and Energy are god, I''m merely using it as an example of how there are many things that we still don''t know and probably won''t in our lifetimes yet they breed belief and faith in much the same way as religion''s have their belief and faith in god(s).

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[quote user="JF"]what is he doing?

Allegedly said to Adams in front of the whole squad in the first team meeting with him last season "are we supposed to know who you are?"[/quote]

If it ever comes to light that he actually said something like that then I hope he gets a career ending injury and never plays again. Extremely disrespectful to a club legend who was a better player and a better person than he''ll ever be.

Especially as he was undermining the efforts of someone desperately trying to keep the club that pays him 30k+ a week in the PL.

If he ever returns to CR I hope Hughtons egotistical lap dog gets roundly booed

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The fact that science can''t prove something (yet) doesn''t make it weaker, it makes it stronger. Religion is full of mysteries and myths and problems that it has no way of getting around because it is literally set in stone. Science can discover, change, mould or even rip up our understanding of any subject and start again if it needs to. That''s what makes it strong.

Science will always trump religion because it can always adapt. Being wrong is not a crime in science it just means you didn''t have all the facts.

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Nobody can definitively say there isn''t a ''god'' as in something concious or not that created reality or whatever.

The only thing that I can say with absolute certainty is that the human and religious understanding/concept of god, heaven/hell, creation etc is complete and utter nonsense

Nobody can say for 100% certainty that there is no form of afterlife whatsoever but we do not go to a heaven or hell based on our moral choices in life. There is nobody watching over us or listening to our thoughts.

There is nothing out there with any power to influence a persons free will or events on earth. There is no all powerful being that cares at all about where you stick your genitals or whether you have ''faith'' in it.

I personally am an athiest and I think if a person wants to believe in some form of god then fine, whatever. But I just can''t get my head around anyone actually following any of these preposterous religions around the world or the rules they force upon you. Unless they were brainwashed by some cult at a young age I just don''t get how people can''t see that it''s all nonsense.

Historically religion has always been used as a way to control people. People who didn''t know any better were told as long as you respect your betters, toil away your life working to make other people richer and keep quiet then when you die you''ll be rewarded with paradise etc

Similarly if you go off to war for us and die because those in power of our two states have had a disagreement it doesn''t matter because you''ll magically float up to heaven. It''s no wonder religion has always been forced upon people,. but come on guys, let''s move past all this rubbish now, it''s 2014!

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[quote user="Buh"]The fact that science can''t prove something (yet) doesn''t make it weaker, it makes it stronger. Religion is full of mysteries and myths and problems that it has no way of getting around because it is literally set in stone. Science can discover, change, mould or even rip up our understanding of any subject and start again if it needs to. That''s what makes it strong. Science will always trump religion because it can always adapt. Being wrong is not a crime in science it just means you didn''t have all the facts.[/quote]

 

I''m confused, how does not being able to prove something make it stronger? I think that what you are trying to get to is that the fact that science can admit to not knowing something and through the maliability it gains it''s superior position. That is a reasonable arguement against (most) established religions but isn''t in itself any evidence against there being some kind of higher being or superior entity that has been involved in the development of life the universe and everything. Just because the human condition forces us to try and understand things that are beyond our understanding and so things were explained in the way that made sense to people at the time doesn''t mean that the underlying article of belief is invalid. You are in the same trap as Dawkins, just because the religions are wrong doesn''t make ''god'' wrong, it just means that we aren''t accurately protraying it.

 

Organised religion has done a lot of damage, there is no denying that, but it has also done a lot of good. Religion has meant that humans have survived in situations where otherwise we might not have (e.g. kosher laws in the desert make total sense) it has also meant that people don''t get overawed by all the enormity of what they cannot explain. Some religions recognise that they have to adapt and they have to reinterpret what has gone before (see the Talmut) but a lot of evil has also been done through this way (see Jihadists). The problem is that religion is trying to explain concepts that are beyond our understanding or realm of experience and by the very nature of them always will be, what happens after death, what came before life, what exists beyond the stars. These are all of the same questions that science is trying to understand, the only difference is that science is using all of the modern tools at it''s disposal to answer these questions, tools that were not available when the religions were formed.

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"Where as I realise that creation is all the evidence that we need of a Creator."

just as an email from Nigeria is all the evidence you need that the sender has millions in a bank account somewhere

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[quote user="City1st"]how come god is an old man - was he ever young or even a baby ?

why did it take him 6 days to create the earth, surely with his powers it should have all been done with one snap of his fingers ?

and most intriguing, is it the same giraffe with his head out of the ark window, or do they take it in turns ?

[/quote]

Because the Bible is as fictional as Harry Potter

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what is laughable is when these cranks start warbling on about evidence and proof .... and logical explanations, when the whole foundation of their view is beliefthe suspension of rational thought ie faith...... accepting whatever illogical old tosh imaginable, because it was written in a bookon that basis Jack in the Benstalk is true

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[quote user="City1st"]what is laughable is when these cranks start warbling on about evidence and proof .... and logical explanations, when the whole foundation of their view is belief

the suspension of rational thought ie faith

...... accepting whatever illogical old tosh imaginable, because it was written in a book

on that basis Jack in the Benstalk is true





[/quote]

 

Unlike science, which is also based on belief, belief that the base principles are correct and the model of physics (for example) is consistant, even when we know it isn''t (macro and quantum physics are almost un-reconcilable in many respects).

Also how often have you had faith in something? Faith that NCFC will win, faith that a parachute will open, faith that a friend is telling you the truth? Faith in itself is not the suspension of rational thought. Religious faith is the same as any other faith, it is just based on something that you do not believe (the bible is to an extent a work of fiction, but you cannot deny that taken as such it does contain some good messages, treat others as you expect to be treated, don''t kill or rob people for example). Th eissue is not the faith itself, it is what people use the faith to justify. The bible, like the torah, the qu''ran and the Tao should not be taken as statements of fact and gospel, they should be taken as lessons in how to live your life as a better person. Seperate them from the worship and the things that have been done in their name and they make a lot more sense... Unfortunately you get crakcpots, the same is true of science though, take Josef Mengel for example, he would argue that what he was doing was in the name of science and learning, you or I would say he was a barbaric crackpot that caused undoubted suffering to thousands of people.

 

As I said before, I''m not religious but evangelical atheism is as much of a narrow minded, unenlightened position to take as religious fundamentalism. Accept that some people have a different basis for belief than you, move on. They are not all mad because they believe these things, they are not flawed human beings because of it and they are most certainly not culpable for the deeds that are done under the guise of their religion (unless they themselves are perpatrators, in which case pillary and chastise away). Their beliefs are deep seated and no amount of reasoning, badgering, ridiculing, or dismissing of them will change them so it''s pointless getting worked up about it.

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The simple facts are that science can NEVER explain things fully. You can''t explain the unexplainable.  It is two sides of the same coin.  No one can ever explain who or what the life force is, any more than any scientist can explain what caused creation.   The Big Bang happened - but what caused that?   Where did matter come from in the first place to cause the big bang - in other word what created it?    There are no answers for these fundamental issues because you are always going to come up against the same question  - "where did it come from?"    However far back you go you can talk about multiple universes, multiple big bangs etc etc but the fundamental issue remains - and scientists will never be able to explain that question "what caused it to exist in the first place?" Equally you can never explain what the life force is - you can know it, you can feel it, intuitively you know it has to be there, but you can''t explain it and why its there.  That is the difficulty with religion - you can''t quantify "God" anymore than  a scientist can explain "why are we here?".   Scientists can dissect and hypothisise, but the closer they get to answers, the more questions are thrown up.   City 1st seems to dismiss "faith" as being the suspension of rational thought. Well to me faith is something far more important than that.  Faith is accepting that there is something "unknowable" and that in accepting that you are letting go of the idea that rational thought is all that matters.  Thoughts are just thoughts - electrical impulses.   Creation, or the universe if you like, or God, or the life-force  - is way, way more important than what the human brain can think of.   Human beings are bags of atoms (atoms - 99.99% emtpy space btw) most of which (80%) is water.  There are things that hold the fabric of the universe together that we can''t even imagine, yet some people dismiss believing in God or a life-force as being an abberation.  To me the only abberation is thinking that humans are more important than anything else in this world.   We are everything - and we are nothing.  On one hand we are the most important things we can imagine, but in the other hand, in the scheme of things, we are of the most insignificant creatures in this universe.  Our dominance on this planet is an accident - mainly due to the destruction of forests and being forced into being land creatures instead of tree dwellers - not because we are "special".   The universe is an incredible place - it is alive - and our arrogance in thinking we are alive and nothing else is, is frankly laughable.   The whole of existence is alive.   You''d better believe it, because the more science finds out, the more it is leading to the conclusion that everything exists because of it''s energy field - the whole of life is just an energy field, from what holds a rock together to what constitutes a highly skilled footballer.   If you accept that - and it is what scientists accept nowadays - then you might as well accept there is a  life force - call it God if you like,  because it is the nearest explanation to what makes things happen that you will ever get.  

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"City 1st seems to dismiss "faith" as being the suspension of rational

thought. Well to me faith is something far more important than that. 

Faith is accepting that there is something "unknowable" and that in

accepting that you are letting go of the idea that rational thought is

all that matters."
what a load of old twaddle !it is not the supposed importance (something I never claimed) but the condition that faith amounts toie accepting the word of some book - which is the complete opposite of the guff "

Faith is accepting that there is something "unknowable"
their is no such thing as faith in the unknowableit is the unquestioning acceptance of the writings of a book - that is faith

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Pascals wager, God of the gaps, Pre suppositionalism and even a Godwins Law in there so far and now .....

The universe is an incredible place  (it exists, therefore it is 100% credible) - it is alive - (quantify alive)  and our arrogance ( who is our?) in

thinking we are alive and nothing else is ( who stated this and when?) , is frankly laughable.   The

whole of existence is alive ( evidence please).   You''d better believe it ( I have not got enough faith in you to accept this or seen any evidence to back up the statement), because the more

science finds out, the more it is leading to the conclusion that

everything exists because of it''s energy field (source please and define "energy field") - the whole of life is

just an energy field (source for proof of this statement please), from what holds a rock together to what

constitutes a highly skilled footballer.

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[quote user="City1st"]their is no such thing as faith in the unknowableit is the unquestioning acceptance of the writings of a book - that is faith[/quote]"Faith" is nothing to do with books.  Faith in the "unknowable" means that you accept that there is something at work that is unexplainable, far and away more important than your or my little brain - and that you trust that to be way more knowledgeable than you or I will ever be.  That something is what makes the universe tick, it is what creates nebula, galaxies, planets and governs every single thing that happens anywhere in the cosmos, from the creation of a pulsar to the creation of a fly.   That is what people with faith trust in, whether they call it God or any other thing.  It is the universal life force that allows you to exist.   If you stop thinking with your logical brain, your body will carry on breathing and functioning without your help - that is the life force at work.  It is something beyond the power of reason.  You can explain the mechanics but that''s all.  That''s where science has traditionally fallen short, it can explain how, but not why.  And that fundamental unanswerable - unknowable - question remains.   What caused things to exist at all.   You can say matter has always been there but that doesn''t answer the question. 

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The Big Bang theory does not suggest that something came from nothing as has been rather simplistically suggested by a couple of contributors. It states that space and time are a single entity called Space-Time which came into being following a singularity.

A singularity is a regular occurrence that can be readily observed at the micro Quantum mechanics level. A single particle can exist in two different places at the same time and then balance out by not existing at all for an equal amount of time. This effect can be reproduced in a vacuum and give the impression that matter has momentarily self created. Steven Hawkin puts it rather better in A Brief History of Time.

Science cannot explain everything but it is gradually explaining more and more. Each time it does so the boundaries of religion are pushed back as an explanation for unanswered questions. The Druids used to worship the sun until science discovered that it was no more than a commonplace star.

Many no longer need talking serpents, virgin births, resurrections or mythical beings like gods and angels to make sense of what''s around us.

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First time I''ve been on here since this morning, and hasn''t this thread done well?

Like your thinking Buh!

Also LDC, you said ''You can''t explain the unexplainable''

I am of the mind that you can''t explain the - unproveable.

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[quote user="Hairy Canary"]The Big Bang theory does not suggest that something came from nothing as has been rather simplistically suggested by a couple of contributors. It states that space and time are a single entity called Space-Time which came into being following a singularity.

A singularity is a regular occurrence that can be readily observed at the micro Quantum mechanics level. A single particle can exist in two different places at the same time and then balance out by not existing at all for an equal amount of time. This effect can be reproduced in a vacuum and give the impression that matter has momentarily self created. Steven Hawkin puts it rather better in A Brief History of Time.

Science cannot explain everything but it is gradually explaining more and more. Each time it does so the boundaries of religion are pushed back as an explanation for unanswered questions. The Druids used to worship the sun until science discovered that it was no more than a commonplace star.

Many no longer need talking serpents, virgin births, resurrections or mythical beings like gods and angels to make sense of what''s around us.[/quote]

I mentioned the big bang, but not that it came from nothing.  Also, your point about particles and singularity is fair  in terms of explaining the mechanics,  but little else. Specific religions may be struggling with some of the science, but not the more enlightened ones.  As for Druids, they can still worship the sun and it means exactly the same as it always did - it brings life to earth and is the main reason we are here.   The issue for me is not religions - which are nearly all just poor interpretations of an underlying truth - but the recognition that there is a force at work that is beyond human comprehension - hence the poor interpretations in religions and science''s ability to work out how things work but its inability to answer the questions as to why things work as they do.  [quote user="crabbycanary"]LDC, you said ''You can''t explain the unexplainable''

I am of the mind that you can''t explain the - unproveable.[/quote]Explaining stuff such as religion and God is very difficult - impossible really.  I prefer to think of the life force as being something we can experience rather than explain.  "The Power of Now" is a very good book on this subject, by Eckhart Tolle (loads of him on Youtube too), who is not affiliated to any religion or clique, but a speaker who advocates people living totally in the present and in this way they can be much more in tune with the world around them.  Now what was this thread about?? [:^)] [;)]

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You didn''t mention the Big Bang coming from nothing LDC but others did, hence the laymans explanation.

The point about Druids was to point out that they thought the sun was a god (as did other religions) until science proved otherwise. It was an analogy for what happens today when people can''t explain something.

Your point about science not being able to explain why the universe is as it is presupposes that there must be reason and therefore a guiding hand. The point is of course that there might not be a reason and the whole thing is a natural progression given enough opportunity and time. Both of which are in plentiful supply.

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[quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="City1st"]their is no such thing as faith in the unknowableit is the unquestioning acceptance of the writings of a book - that is faith[/quote]"Faith" is nothing to do with books.  Faith in the "unknowable" means that you accept that there is something at work that is unexplainable, far and away more important than your or my little brain - and that you trust that to be way more knowledgeable than you or I will ever be.  That something is what makes the universe tick, it is what creates nebula, galaxies, planets and governs every single thing that happens anywhere in the cosmos, from the creation of a pulsar to the creation of a fly.   That is what people with faith trust in, whether they call it God or any other thing.  It is the universal life force that allows you to exist.   If you stop thinking with your logical brain, your body will carry on breathing and functioning without your help - that is the life force at work.  It is something beyond the power of reason.  You can explain the mechanics but that''s all.  That''s where science has traditionally fallen short, it can explain how, but not why.  And that fundamental unanswerable - unknowable - question remains.   What caused things to exist at all.   You can say matter has always been there but that doesn''t answer the question. 

[/quote]you may wish to trust that there is something unknowable that is (however), "way more knowledgeable than" either of us but that does not offer anything tangible ... other than your stupidity, which is hardly a basis for the rest of us to follow or acceptI''m not too sure how this supposed "universal life force" has knowledge and why it is only at a level ''way more'' than you ... (which cynics might suggest wouldn''t need to amount too much)

all you cranks are peddling is the same illogical mumbo jumbo that other cranks have been peddling for generations only with the really silly stuff (old men with beards hiding in the clouds) airbrushed out

now why not tell us who the holy ghost is , as he doesn''t seem to get much of a mention nowadays and where has Jesus got to ... just like his dad, took ages to build the world and now it''s going wrong you can''t get him back to fix it

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Not to mention quantum mechanics as a young sceince which is going a long way to explaining more of the fundimental questions yet to be answered.

Dark matter, multiple parrallel universes and time / light are not constant through different elements means there are huge amounts of sceince will explain in the future, yet faith belivers will never give you any evidence to back up their assumptions.

I know where my thoughts are, BUT and here it is....if you believe it makes you no better or worse than anyone else, it comforys lots of people in times of need and that can only be a good thing.

Faith is a personal thing and everyone should make their own minds up.

As for Bassong, God I pray he gets sold soon.....:-) see some light humour.

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The problem with a belief that there is no greater purpose (a faith of its own) is that encourages a nihilistic attitude, why does it matter what I do? Life is meaningless anyway, it''s just my genes carrying out their purpose, self propagation and survival. Unfortunately, if too many people believes such a thing then society breaks down. That in itself may not be such a threat as it was at the outset of religion but when society was less well structured stable and established that was a very real threat. Even now religion gives many people''s life a purpose that they wouldn''t otherwise have.

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That''s spot on Cornish. It''s why the devil and Hell were thought up - to scare the unruly into order when there was no rule of law able to do the job.

Religion certainly does give many people a purpose and strength in difficult times. That is undeniable. Unfortunately that fact doesn''t make it any more or less true.

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Indy, those things you mention are just beliefs, they have not been empirically proven, they just make sense of the theories we have to explain other things. I''m not saying they''re wrong but at the moment there are various competing theories for these things and much like early prophets different scientists are convinced all the evidence supports their argument and disproves the others. I can''t see an m-theorist nailing a treatise to the doors of cern anytime soon though!

(as an aside my favourite candidate is a form of m-theory, that our universe is just one of many universes that exist within a 13 Di mention a lot space where the fundamental forces are represented by strings or membranes and when they collide a universe is born with the laws defined by the intersecting and proximate forces)

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If it gives people a strength and purpose does it matter if it''s true? If life is ultimately meaningless then who cares if their life is built on lies?

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[quote user="cornish sam"]Indy, those things you mention are just beliefs, they have not been empirically proven, they just make sense of the theories we have to explain other things. I''m not saying they''re wrong but at the moment there are various competing theories for these things and much like early prophets different scientists are convinced all the evidence supports their argument and disproves the others. I can''t see an m-theorist nailing a treatise to the doors of cern anytime soon though!

(as an aside my favourite candidate is a form of m-theory, that our universe is just one of many universes that exist within a 13 Di mention a lot space where the fundamental forces are represented by strings or membranes and when they collide a universe is born with the laws defined by the intersecting and proximate forces)[/quote]

This is true but the maths behind the theory has yet to be proven ( appart from time & speed of light is not a constant, proven and accepted a while back). But thats my point we are looking forward to proving the theories unlike relegion which tries to hang onto out dated scriptures thousands of years old!

Like I said to each their own and whatever makes people behave in a civil manner to each other.

One thing for sure we ars all stuck on this little rock in the middle or edge of a huge galaxy lart of a vast universe, why we can''t just live happy together is beyond my comprihension, religion, land, oil or anything else we fight over is really not worth the battle and people being killed.

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No issue with that at all Cornish if it were simply to provide support and purpose then that would be fine. It''s when it gets to the point of flying aircraft into buildings that it becomes a problem.

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