Adams Reaction "Tempo Was Key"

[Gainer the Gopher 0]

It''s not emotion and fallacy, T. It''s common sense. We had a high octane offensive team that achieved safety several games from season end, and hired a manager who dismantled it emotionally in his first season by implementing a less successful slow defensive-minded scheme. Less than a year later we were relegated.

So whatever statistics prove in your mind, they are not 100% proof of anything other than the believers'' gullibility. We scored 28 goals last season.

[T 190]

The Norfolk flat earth society are alive and well. That is not commonsense. That is a speculative hypothesis which can''t be proven with no evidence. Whereas CH outperformed in first season and was par in second season is a statement of fact. Some folk in Norfolk really are miserable, ignorant and arrogant. Its ludicrous that posters seriously seem to think that they know more about football than a professional football coach and that they even seem to take themselves seriously.

[lappinitup 629]

[quote user="T"]Some folk in Norfolk really are miserable, ignorant and arrogant.[/quote]Self praise is no recomendation.......

[Gainer the Gopher 0]

I''m not saying it was 100% guaranteed so you can stick you speculative hypothesis.

As for your "fact" of outperforming, we finished with fewer points and took longer to guarentee safety in Hughton'' s first season.

His second season was not par to anything I''m aware of. Please enlighten me as what he was on par with, because whatever it was, it got him fired.

The elite Oxford educated geniuses are out in full force, getting it handed to them by the ignorant Norfolk peasants.

[T 190]

At least some people now at least admit they can''t actually predict what would happen in a hypothetical situation which is the standard illogical basis of criticism here.

Perhaps some people will then acknowledge that the league is decided on position not points.

As explained many times the standard measure of relative performance is output - position vs input - budget. It seems that many still can not grasp therefore that as we had one of the lowest performance in both years we outperformed in the first year and were par in the second.

Perhaps people will one day also grasp that professional coaches and successful entrepreneurs with actual experience of running football clubs know more than posters. It may help if more people in this country did some coaching qualifications so they actually knew what they were talking about as opposed to sitting on a keyboard criticising people who have achieved far more than they ever will.

[lappinitup 629]

[quote user="T"]It may help if more people in this country did some coaching qualifications so they actually knew what they were talking about as opposed to sitting on a keyboard criticising people who have achieved far more than they ever will.[/quote]Are you seriously suggesting people should get coaching qualifications in order to give their opinions on a message board?......or should they sit silently and listen to people who PROFESS to be experts?

[T 190]

There are a few hundred coaches in UK compared to the thousands in Germany and Spain. Therefore a lot more fans have greater contact with coaches and greater understanding. I''m saying more people should go and get coaching qualifications if they want to be as knowledgeable and making an actual contribution to sport rather than just criticise and those that don''t should not go around thinking they know more than professionals. They don''t.

[nutty nigel 7,528]

I think the very least we should do is get an NVQ in bingo calling and bog cleaning....

[Gainer the Gopher 0]

You talk in illogical circles, T.

And now because England has fewer qualified coaches than Germany, we have less worthwhile opinion to share.

How about this, Sir Isaac T Newton. If being qualified is the be all and end all you claim, why do different managers in similar settings have vastly different approaches? Redknapp spends money they don''t have, Lambert brings in attackers and his team consistently improves, CH follows the stats you refer to. They''re all qualified.

Assuming your claim about stats and limited budget teams playing cautiously is remotely accurate, Lambert seems to have blown that out of the water. Your flat earth approach didnt help us or Fulham or Cardiff, did it.

[gabba 0]

[quote user="Ice Cold Pineapple Soda"]You talk in illogical circles, T.

And now because England has fewer qualified coaches than Germany, we have less worthwhile opinion to share.

How about this, Sir Isaac T Newton. If being qualified is the be all and end all you claim, why do different managers in similar settings have vastly different approaches? Redknapp spends money they don''t have, Lambert brings in attackers and his team consistently improves, CH follows the stats you refer to. They''re all qualified.

Assuming your claim about stats and limited budget teams playing cautiously is remotely accurate, Lambert seems to have blown that out of the water. Your flat earth approach didnt help us or Fulham or Cardiff, did it.[/quote]You''re wasting your time arguing with one of these pseudo-scientific types, I think T must stand for ''tea leaves reader''. Football is an art and Chris Hughton was our Rolf Harris (albeit minus the wandering hands and kiddie fiddling).

[T 190]

We now have a full set of pinkun poster fallacies:

They think they know more than professionals. A little actual knowledge of coaching and business teaches you that they don''t. Playing with themselves on a computer does not actually count in the real world.

They think that arguing on the basis of some hypothetical situation is evidence of their argument. It isn''t.

They think the league is decided on points not position .it isn''t

They think that one off examples disprove the general trend. They don''t.

The definitive work on the relationship between science and art is zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance. Understand the science and you may understand the art. Understand that our lives and the universe is just probability theory and you may start to understand life and football. Get an education or just be aware of the world around you and then some posters may start to understand what little they know.

[SwindonCanary 455]

Think we would all like to see Norwich playing at a high tempo, also pushing up high, closing down, accurate passing/shooting etc. etc. etc.Unfortunately most players are unable to do that for a whole match.  

[The Bristol Nest 513]

Firstly its bristol nest here not someone emerging from 2009 to have a pop.

Secondly , whats with the finger pointing Buh? Its really is not up to you what type of fan someone is and please have the testicles to answer Mark.

Thirdly T. What aload of squit. Sanctimonious self promoting bilge. Please can everyone be a bit nicer.

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="T"]The definitive work on the relationship between science and art is zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance. Understand the science and you may understand the art. Understand that our lives and the universe is just probability theory and you may start to understand life and football. [/quote]

"Definitive book on the relationship between science and art".   Truly a great book.  Its fundamental point - as I read it - is that understanding of the science is not the only requirement to being able to understand life in general - it requires a stepping back from the science to allow the sub-conscious - or the life force - space to find real answers to life''s little questions.  The answers are out there, but too much science gets in the way of understanding the bigger picture as much as too much emotional response gets in the way of understanding the bigger picture.  I guess people can read into it what they want, but to me the true answer lies in the "in between" science and art - that indefinable space where knowledge and emotion are missing and there is only space - space to experience.   That experience you could liken to being "in the zone" for a sportsman - where knowledge and emotion are missing and in their place is something else.  The book describes it as "quality".  The closest to "quality" as the book describes it, that I have seen with NCFC is what we had in the late 80''s under Stringer imo.  A team that looked "in the zone" every time it stepped out on the pitch.  That is something surely every team is after. The start we have made and the quality of the squad suggests we have possibilities for a similar feeling for when we go out on the pitch this season. 

You attack people for their apparent lack of knowledge, but then you seem to want to discuss things in terms of evidence and facts - but talking about football is subjective. Some of us come from a stat/evidence based viewpoint, some of us from an emotional standpoint, but neither is better than the other, because the truth is - and this is what the book intimates - is that "quality" lies in between these two things.  You seem to think you know better than the rest of us. I have been accused of that as well - but the difference is that I know when I am coming across like that because I do it on purpose because I like to get people to try and think about the possible bigger picture. You just write people off.   Perhaps you could show a bit more compassion.   That is what "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance is all about" imo.  

[Molly Windley 76]

[quote user="T"]There are a few hundred coaches in UK compared to the thousands in Germany and Spain. Therefore a lot more fans have greater contact with coaches and greater understanding. I''m saying more people should go and get coaching qualifications if they want to be as knowledgeable and making an actual contribution to sport rather than just criticise and those that don''t should not go around thinking they know more than professionals. They don''t.[/quote]Just had a quick check on this and we have around 70,000 UK based football coaches with level 1 and level 2 qualifications.

[T 190]

That''s interesting and better than I thought. I was referring to the professional levels where the comparison is woeful. There is a danger with the lower levels that you think you know more than you do but generally as people go through the levels they realise just how little they know and how much they have got to learn compared with a professional. Good to see there is actually some people in the UK actually doing something rather than criticising people when they have neither the knowledge or the ability to do something themselves.

It is really refreshing though to have a sensible response on here for once though.

[Dubai Mark 0]

There was a good article recently, to which I think a link was posted on this board, that gave a really good summary of the difference between the German system at youth development level and England, there was a huge difference in the number of highly qualified coaches between the two countries. The Germans have invested heavily and also some years ago just about started from scratch and rebuilt their football structure from grass roots to the top, hence they are where they are now.

Anyway, that was just an aside to give me a reason to politely ask Buh again to explain in a little more detail exactly what "type" of fan I am?............unlike me to get involved like this, but I am genuinely interested to get some feedback from a fellow poster as I get a feeling I am being misunderstood?

[Jim Smith 2,317]

[quote user="T"]That''s interesting and better than I thought. I was referring to the professional levels where the comparison is woeful. There is a danger with the lower levels that you think you know more than you do but generally as people go through the levels they realise just how little they know and how much they have got to learn compared with a professional. Good to see there is actually some people in the UK actually doing something rather than criticising people when they have neither the knowledge or the ability to do something themselves.

It is really refreshing though to have a sensible response on here for once though.[/quote]

The gist of your posts T seems to imply that nobody can criticise or even voice an opinion on the quality of a manager and whether they are doing a good job unless they themselves have coaching qualifications?

I think that''s hugely offensive to a large proportion of our fans who are intelligent enough to see whats going on in front of their eyes and form a view as to whether a manager is making good or bad decisions (or in Hughton''s case often just doing nothing).

Most posters on this board could get coaching qualifications i''m sure. If they did i''m sure many would make extremely good coaches and managers because they are intelligent people, probably far more intelligent than many of the managers of professional teams who simply get jobs on the back of being former players who have "done their coaching badges." Sadly however many of them would never be taken seriously in football because they have not "played the game."

The fact people don;t have coaching badges does not, however, means that they don;t know a good manager from a bad one. Personally I''ve been going to Carrow Road for 30 years and have watched a hell of a lot of football in that time. Many on here will have been going for much longer. To suggest that we don''t know a good, average or poor manager (or player) when we see one just because we "don;t have coaching badges" is nonsense.

Chris Hughton did ok in his first season i will give you that. Nothing special (despite the flattering gloss given by the two late wins) but he did all that was asked of him and i suppose to that extent you could say he as doing a good job if you ignored the nagging doubts about how the season went after the famous 10 match run. In my view his second season was dreadful and I base that not on looking at wage bills, budgets, points per game or whatever but on what I saw that season, how we played and my judgment on whether he did as well as a decent manager should have done with the players he had at his disposal. My own view is that any half decent manager would have kept that squad (to suggest our squad was amongst the 3 worst in the league would be nonsense) up. Hughton was taking us down and he was taking us down because he himself was the problem so he was never going to find a solution to that,

That is my view although obviously I have no coaching qualifications to back it up!

[Jim Smith 2,317]

[quote user="Dubai Mark"]There was a good article recently, to which I think a link was posted on this board, that gave a really good summary of the difference between the German system at youth development level and England, there was a huge difference in the number of highly qualified coaches between the two countries. The Germans have invested heavily and also some years ago just about started from scratch and rebuilt their football structure from grass roots to the top, hence they are where they are now.

Anyway, that was just an aside to give me a reason to politely ask Buh again to explain in a little more detail exactly what "type" of fan I am?............unlike me to get involved like this, but I am genuinely interested to get some feedback from a fellow poster as I get a feeling I am being misunderstood?[/quote]

I wouldn''t worry about it he''s been snapping at/offensive to quite a few posters in recent weeks.

[T 190]

Jim, the views that you attribute to me are yours not mine.

My experience from coaching is that I''m starting to see things that I was completely oblivious of before and that I know nothing compared to a professional coach or a friend who played professionally or a major football figure with who I have worked professionally. I do know how the business works from a professional perspective and what drives results. I''ve never had a problem with someone expressing a critical view. I have an issue with the malicious abuse directed at members of the club where it is clear from my professional experience that people do not even know enough to realise they do not know what they are talking about.

[Jim Smith 2,317]

[quote user="T"]Jim, the views that you attribute to me are yours not mine.

My experience from coaching is that I''m starting to see things that I was completely oblivious of before and that I know nothing compared to a professional coach or a friend who played professionally or a major football figure with who I have worked professionally. I do know how the business works from a professional perspective and what drives results. I''ve never had a problem with someone expressing a critical view. I have an issue with the malicious abuse directed at members of the club where it is clear from my professional experience that people do not even know enough to realise they do not know what they are talking about.[/quote]

Sorry I don''t understand your opening sentence re views u attribute to you are mine?

I can see that having some coaching experience may make you look at certain things differently but I don''t accept it means those with coaching experience always know better or that those without it can''t criticise a manager. I have no doubt Hughton knows the textbooks and how to set a team up to play a certain shape. Unfortunately for him the things he lacked were the things you can''t coach such as "game intelligence" as McNally put it.

[T 190]

In the Internet world many people seem to think they are an expert. The more knowledge you have the more you realise how little you know. Of course people are entitled to a view and to criticise someone but abuse based on speculative theories which contract facts, without any basis on training, qualifications or experience are just unpleasant and ignorant. It is these views where people should be pulled up for.

[PurpleCanary 5,557]

[quote user="iron_stan"]asides from tempo i thought what was key was switching to a 442 with redmond down the rightback to basics, worked wonders, balls in the box from pacey wingers and enough players in there to compete for them, jumpers for goalposts, simples

[/quote]I came across this on a Cardiff fans'' website:What struck me yesterday was at 2.1 there was a long break in play for

an injury. Adams took advantage of this and pulled his team across for a

quick team talk. Despite the fact we were seriously floundering Ole did

nothing.Can someone confirm this?

[nutty nigel 7,528]

[quote user="T"]That''s interesting and better than I thought. I was referring to the professional levels where the comparison is woeful. There is a danger with the lower levels that you think you know more than you do but generally as people go through the levels they realise just how little they know and how much they have got to learn compared with a professional. Good to see there is actually some people in the UK actually doing something rather than criticising people when they have neither the knowledge or the ability to do something themselves.

It is really refreshing though to have a sensible response on here for once though.[/quote]

 

The reason you don''t get many sensible responses is because of stuff like this post from earlier in the thread.

 

[quote user="T"]The Norfolk flat earth society

are alive and well. That is not commonsense. That is a

speculative hypothesis which can''t be proven with no evidence. Whereas CH

outperformed in first season and was par in second season is a statement of

fact. Some folk in Norfolk really are miserable,

ignorant and arrogant. Its ludicrous that posters seriously seem

to think that they know more about football than a professional football coach

and that they even seem to take themselves seriously.[/quote]

 

 

I sometimes agree with some of the points you make but your not really worth debating with when you post crap like above. In fact the most miserable and arrogant poster on this thread is.......

 

 

 

[Nova 0]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="iron_stan"]asides from tempo i thought what was key was switching to a 442 with redmond down the rightback to basics, worked wonders, balls in the box from pacey wingers and enough players in there to compete for them, jumpers for goalposts, simples

[/quote]I came across this on a Cardiff fans'' website:What struck me yesterday was at 2.1 there was a long break in play for

an injury. Adams took advantage of this and pulled his team across for a

quick team talk. Despite the fact we were seriously floundering Ole did

nothing.Can someone confirm this?[/quote]

Yes I can. I was at the match and at 2-1 a Cardiff player went down injured in their box and the entire outfield squad took advantage to go over and have a drink whilst Adams issued some instructions.

[PurpleCanary 5,557]

[quote user="Nova"][quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="iron_stan"]asides from tempo i thought what was key was switching to a 442 with redmond down the rightback to basics, worked wonders, balls in the box from pacey wingers and enough players in there to compete for them, jumpers for goalposts, simples

[/quote]I came across this on a Cardiff fans'' website:What struck me yesterday was at 2.1 there was a long break in play for

an injury. Adams took advantage of this and pulled his team across for a

quick team talk. Despite the fact we were seriously floundering Ole did

nothing.Can someone confirm this?[/quote]

Yes I can. I was at the match and at 2-1 a Cardiff player went down injured in their box and the entire outfield squad took advantage to go over and have a drink whilst Adams issued some instructions.[/quote]Thanks.

[the bristol nest 0]

When Jones was down NA did a team talk. Good stuff from Neil. He probably got it from a book about coaching.

[Gainer the Gopher 0]

Funny how T changes tack midstream. It WAS a 100% thing about low budget teams parking the bus to survive but I give 2 examples different and suddenly it''s a 1-off. Which he got wrong because by my examples alone it''s at least a 2-off.

[T 190]

Hope someone''s head is ok this morning and they had a good night by the looks of things.

Now we have argument by making things up in true pinkun style. Clearly some people have not grasped the basics of probability theory - it''s not academic - it is what lies behind our universe and our lives and football. The world is not black and white. It is a spectrum. You always get outlyers eg if you read about the cern experiments. And the world is not down to one person. Football is a dynamic team sport so to focus on the manager is only because the human brain tries to simplify the world because it can not cope with the complexity of reality. The people who are abusive to members of the club don''t have a rational arguments just emotional ones to back their hypothetical speculation based on no evidence, knowledge or experience. Random facts are not evidence. They are simply advertising they have no grasp of the reality of the world they live in or they are simply obnoxious. Of course tactics, substitutions etc play a part but that is all it is as so form, injury and suspensions. The biggest part though is the quality of the players which is generally governed by budget. Of couse managers make a difference but they can''t change inate ability. The focus on managers is overstated as they only make a difference of up to 10pc according to studies. It seems that many posters involvement in sport is purely passive.

[Dubai Mark 0]

I find your writings interesting T and understand and agree with most of your points. BUT....really not so sure on this one regardless of the studies.........

"The focus on managers is overstated as they only make a difference of up to 10pc according to studies"