Russ Martin's Best Position?

[Ray 111]

When RM played CB we scored 8 goals and conceded 3, at an average match score of 1.6 – 0.6 (a goal difference of 1.0 per game).

Since he has started to play RB, admittedly only two games, the scores on the doors are, 6 scored (including 3 assists from RM) and conceded 4, at an average match score of 3 – 2 (a goal difference of 1.0 per game).

So, is this a reflection of his ability as a CB, insomuch as we are tighter at the back when he plays there, conceding 1.4 goals fewer per game and/or a reflection of his ability as an attacking RB (3 assists) scoring 1.4 goals more per game?

Or perhaps it means that NA will play him at CB or RB depending on the opposition?

[Katie Borkins 1]

" Russ Martin''s Best Position?"

I''ve heard he favours the "bizarre wheelbarrow".

[Yobocop 1,094]

Tea boy

[STAN 29]

The only thing it suggests is that Russ Martin is capable of playing both positions.

[Newton 0]

On the Bench

Tends to ball watch more and more

[grefstad 0]

I dont think you can read it all from the stats as presentet by the OP.

But from what I see when Russ is playing, I just dont feel he is good enough.

Yes, he has a few assists. But watching him "in-game", he makes so many poor decisions. And is always likely to be caught for pace.

I am perhaps a pretty harsh critic of Martin, but for me, he is not the guy we will want at RB in the Premier, if we go up.

I would like to see Elliot Bennet being groomed into that role.

We need more pace in the back 4, and Martin is rather slow, as is Turner and Hojfeldt.

I dont think it is Martin`s credit that we are not conceding many goals, and if the opposition had more quality than the ones we have played so far, he would have been much more exposed than he has been so far.

Yes, I accept that when we are playing "expansive" football, we are becoming more open at the back, and suspect to counters exposing and sometimes isolating our rather slow defenders. It is a dilemma.

But Adams would know that if you want to play a high-pressing game, it means pushing your defenders high up the pitch to re-win the ball when it is lost, and for this it certainly helps having quicker defenders to cover all the green grass behind them.

At the moment I think we have one of the slower defences in the league, but we are getting away with it due to our scoring exploits in the other end.

[star_manic 0]

[quote user="Ray"]When RM played CB we scored 8 goals and conceded 3, at an average match score of 1.6 – 0.6 (a goal difference of 1.0 per game).

Since he has started to play RB, admittedly only two games, the scores on the doors are, 6 scored (including 3 assists from RM) and conceded 4, at an average match score of 3 – 2 (a goal difference of 1.0 per game).

So, is this a reflection of his ability as a CB, insomuch as we are tighter at the back when he plays there, conceding 1.4 goals fewer per game and/or a reflection of his ability as an attacking RB (3 assists) scoring 1.4 goals more per game?

Or perhaps it means that NA will play him at CB or RB depending on the opposition?[/quote]

I think you may need to redo your maths Ray. My memory has it that RM has played all of our games so far. In those we have scored 20 times but you have the total at 14 ( 8 at CB and 6 at RB ).

[star_manic 0]

Your figures for CB are correct, but you posted on the evening of 27th September, after the Blackpool match, which was his 5th at FB. In those matches we have scored 12 and conceded 5. An average score of 2.4 - 1 . Not sure how you came to the conclusion that he had only played twice at full-back.

[Ray 111]

star_manic,

I think you may need to reboot your memory, he did not play against Brentford and at the time of writing we had played 8 league games threfore RM had played 7 (5 @ CB and 2 @ RB), I think you will find my stats were correct ignoring cup games, aplogies if I didn''t make this clear.

BTW I wasn''t making any judgements myself, I just found it interesting that there was a difference in our performance, which could be for a whole host of reasons, but yet again we went behind on Saturday, making it 3 out of 3 when RM has played RB and 1 out of 5 when he played at CB, which again could be for a whole host of reasons, after all his individual physical performance may have nothing to do with it but perhaps his organisational skills do? Just chucking it out there that''s all.

[star_manic 0]

Apologies Ray, my maths appear to be no better than yours. We have, of course, played only 4 games with Russ at FB. This means the average game score for this period is 3 -1.25.

[star_manic 0]

Appear to be digging an ever bigger hole for myself. Only have the list of results out here, and forgot his little injury.

[Ray 111]

star_manic,

May I suggest that by your own inference, that is time to get rid of that spade!!!

I think you will find he played CB against, Wolves, Watford, Blackburn, Ipswich & Bournemouth, then went to RB against Cardiff, missing Brentford and then Birmingham and now of course Blackpool.

Which I''m pretty certain, assuming my data is correct, is what I said in the first place but I''m now starting to get confused!

[SwindonCanary 455]

Don''t look at the maths look at the performance. and for me, I''d say it''s RB (The Norfolk Caffu)   

[kingsway 94]

Martins never that god and never that bad!

best position is right back although he good at Cbjust not tall enough!

He''s a player many don''t rate but he''s ben about our most consistant player since he signed!

[nutty nigel 7,507]

I still have an open mind about this. I think Turner is our best defender. Using Ryan Bennett as an example I  think Ryan Bennett is better in the air than Russ Martin. But having said that I''m not convinced that Turner/Bennett is a better partnership than Turner/Martin. Winning more balls in the air may not equate to less goals conceded. It would be interesting to see some stats over a longer period.

 

 

[GemmaNorwich 0]

Missionary

[Ray 111]

As there is some debate about the RB position on another thread I thought I would update this one with latest performances – and I think I have my stats (and maths) right and I am counting League games only and he didn’t play against Brentford.

When RM has played CB (6 games) we have scored 8 goals and conceded 4, at an average match score of 1.33 – 0.67 (a goal difference of 0.66 per game and one of those goals was the deflected shot last night, so it would have been 0.5 goals conceded per game, but they all count).

When he has played RB (3 games), the scores on the doors are, 9 scored (including 3 assists from RM) and conceded 5, at an average match score of 3 – 1.67 (a goal difference of 1.33 per game).

So, it appears we are tighter at the back when he plays CB but create more chances/score more goals when he plays RB, bottom line is we concede two and a half times more goals per game when he is not in the middle and score over twice (2.25) as many when is playing RB and attacking, that said we win by an extra 0.67 goals per game average, so on that basis RB I guess??

OK lies, damn lies, etc, but a pattern is starting to emerge and an interesting conundrum.

[the bristol nest 0]

Thanks Ray. That flies in the face of my thoughts on the matter.

Could this mean that he should play right back and we drop Hooiveld for Miquel/Bassong/Cuellar?

[ZLF 271]

in the interest of consistency whats the view excluding defelections when martin at right back?

 

Overall I would say 10 league games in is probably too soon to tell as the samples are statistically (or lies!)  to small to be conclusive..

 

 

Finally we have  

• 78% of points with Martin at RB  - 2.3pts per game
• 55% of points with him at CB  - 1.7 ppg (28% worse)
• 100% of points when Martin does not start
• 100% of points when Martin is not captain...

Stats and lies...  

 

Martin for right back for me every time.

 

[Ray 111]

the bristol nest,

I think based on quite a lot of what I read on here you may not be alone on this one. To be a good defender you don''t neeed to be flying into tackles, possibly the opposite, it can be more about moving the oppo around by shutting down space, which doesn''t tend to get noticed as much because it is difficult to notice something that doesn''t happen, either way we concede very few goals from our right flank, or left for that matter, most of the goals we concede come from a break down in play in the midfield, losing the ball or not tracking back.

Pretty sure you won''t see Bassong anywhere near the 1st team, could be wrong of course!!, still not sure about the others.

What does surprise me is that we bought 3 CB''s in the window, two of them on the last day or two and I don''t fully understand why. We have a good young prospect in Gaffaiti, who admittedly is injured at the moment, so why did we need 3 more, surely one would have sufficed, which even with RB and AG out would have left us with, Martin, Turner & ANO?

[ZLF 271]

[quote user="Ray"]

 What does surprise me is that we bought 3 CB''s in the window, two of them on the last day or two and I don''t fully understand why.[/quote]

 

Agreed - even more so if they are not contenders.

 

It all has the feel of a bad day on ebay - you make bids for three  wanting 1 and expecting to be outbid on two only to find no one else is as interested and you end up having to take all of them!

[GJP 79]

Yeah, the number of CBs brought in does look little strange.

 

I can see it with Cuellar and Hooiveld because of their experience and because Hooiveld plays on the left. With Bennett injured we probably did need someone to come in.

 

But Miquel is an interesting one. Unlike the other two he''s got his best years to come and he could be an investment for us. However, if he''s not up to being first choice for us in the Champs this season then how much use is he going to be to us in the Prem?

[Holtcantshoot 0]

I just wanted to point out that even as an accountant I find your over reliance on trying to prove where Russel Martin''s best position is based on statistical analysis a bit over the top.

[Ray 111]

Holtcanshoot,

Not quite sure what you mean by "Even as an accountant" but I assume you mean you deal with numbers, and possibly interpretation of their meaning, through trends, forecasts, etc??

As previously posted, all top coaches/clubs insist on statistical data and interpretation thereof, through trends, etc, hence Prozone.

Anyway not sure anyone has been trying to ''prove'' anything, it was just something I noticed and put it out there as a discussion topic,

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="Ray"]Holtcanshoot,

Not quite sure what you mean by "Even as an accountant" but I assume you mean you deal with numbers, and possibly interpretation of their meaning, through trends, forecasts, etc??

As previously posted, all top coaches/clubs insist on statistical data and interpretation thereof, through trends, etc, hence Prozone.

Anyway not sure anyone has been trying to ''prove'' anything, it was just something I noticed and put it out there as a discussion topic,[/quote]Statistical data  only shows what has happened in the past and don''t show what will happen in the future.  Martin will improve the more he plays centre back.  Therefore over a period of time, his future stats may look a lot better.    I appreciate stats can give an indication, but they are so open to interpretation and variables and in this case over just a few games they show precious little, other than that as a defence, with Martin at either RB or CB, our defence is pretty mean.  

[Ray 111]

LDC,

Statistical Data can only show what has happened in the past, you cannot measure what is yet to happen, however by analysis of the past data you can predict the future, are you always correct, definitely not, but there is more chance of being correct.

Many moons ago, including a few blue moons, I used to have a handle on this statistical malarkey but it''s disappeared in/over the sands of time, however I''m pretty certain that RM having played 9 games (almost 20% of this season''s fixtures) that most staticians would consider that a good enough sample.

As you say, the key is all about interpretation and I''m sure the professionals look at far more data than me, including no doubt, type of oppo, weather conditions, etc. etc. I think they can pretty much tell you how many times Jerome scratched his backside whilst with his back to goal in the penalty box, etc.

The key point, and you made it LDC, is how good are you at interpretation, that is the skill, and they have professionals to do it (Prozone that is).

Apart from a couple of blips, which I think was more a midfield issue, mean we are, and long may it stay that way, which of course it will if stats are anything to go by!!!!!!

[pliff 4]

Playing right back for a League 1 team