Pressing

[barclay_boy111 0]

I feel that over the last 2-3 seasons don''t press and win the ball, we seem to be sticking to zonal marking rather than man marking and never really trying to get a foot in to a tackle but appear to stand off the man on the ball and wait for him to make the first move.

This is a big pet hate of mine and if you look at the clubs that do well pressing and really putting the attacking team under pressure is a big part of success, Southampton last season was a team that did this so well and got the rewards. I remember watching them play united and man city when they drew 1-1 and they constantly closed them down and didn''t let them build up attacking steam.

I don''t understand our philosophy and hope it changes and we truly get stuck in.

[ellis206 0]

You hear this a lot at home games and away games.

I understand it in the midfield areas etc but you can''t get stuck in and close down an opposition defence when they are playing it across the back four, this would mean bringing a midfielder further forward leaving a massive gap behind them.

You also don''t want your strikers pointlessly burning themselves out chasing lost causes.

 

[barclay_boy111 0]

No of course not their are situations where patience is very much needed but i would say 90% of the game we just seem to stand off the opposition no matter where they are, wolves goal is a prime example if we had bothered to close down the winger instead of hopelessly running back with him we would have stopes the cross going in.

[Bill 1,788]

not sure why a fairly basic part of the game has acquired this new clicheman marking and closing down have been part of the game since I was a nipper and I can well remember hearing the coaches shouts of close him down when trainingour man problem is not so much that we don''t mark tight enough - it is now a pretty regular feature of our game that you can see  .......ie who the opposition is going to pass the ball to, as we seem to have this belief that at least one of the opposition must be left with space - but that we don''t move off the ball enough .... or at all, at timesthis was very notable in the 2nd half when Redmond actually put his arms up in ''questioning'' as he was stuck on the wing with the ball and there was nobody to pass toI can only think that this is either a bizarre coaching idea or lack of motivation in the players

[Phillip J Fry 0]

The issue of man-marking v zonal marking is a completely different one from pressing. For example, during the 1950''s almost all teams played a version of man marking but it was quite rare for such teams to press very high. By contrast, Arrigo Sacchi''s AC Milan side played a completely zonal marking game but were extremely agressive when putting pressure on the ball. The Dutch team of the 1970''s also played a zonal marking style system but were also well known for their high press (by the way, I''m referring to zonal marking in open play, not from set-piece situations).

Getting back to the issue of pressing, it must be asked what type of pressing you wish to play. Someone like Roy Hodgson, for example, encourages his players to sit deep and in shape until the opposition are within 30 yards of goal. When the opposition are within 30 yards, his sides press aggressively, looking to deny the opponent time on the ball. Barcelona play (or should it be played?) a 5 second press, where everyone presses aggressively for 5 seconds after losing the ball before retreating into their defensive shape. A team like Borussia Dortmund under Klopp, Southampton under Pochettino or any club managed by Bielsa will press very aggressively, all the way up the pitch, for the entirety of the game. 

[Bill 1,788]

I think you are over complicating something that is pretty basic, and are looking for explanations for this latest clichethis is transitory and will pass

[Phillip J Fry 0]

[quote user="City1st"]I think you are over complicating something that is pretty basic, and are looking for explanations for this latest clichethis is transitory and will pass

[/quote]

Zonal marking has been a thing since the 60''s...

[Guest]

Depending on what division you are in and who the opposition are on any given day and the personnel available is not a new thing.

I remember in the late 60''s with Lol Morgan, that City would alter their line up to accommodate an extra defender for away games, sacrificing an out and out winger. In fact, I''m sure one season we had a better away record in terms of wins.

Ron Saunders had a fairly settled line up but quite often for away games would soak up the pressure and hit on the break whereas at home would get the ball early as quick as possible.

The recent Norwich tactic of retreating somewhat to the edge of the area before "pressing" (what happened to "tackling") has led to many bad defeats to teams with quick footed players in and around the area such as Man City, Arsenal and Chelsea.

Does a manager select the tactics to suit the personnel or are players bought to suit the tactic.

The latter was true under Lambert but seemed the other way round under Hughton.

Adams tried the diamond on Sunday. It clearly didn''t work and mainly because the wrong players were chosen for that system and Wolves dominated possession (and luckily didn''t do much with it).

I would be shocked if that system is used against Watford who are a breaking counter attacking side.

I do hope and believe that a 4-4-2 will be used and we will push the defence out further than holding a line 18 yards out.

[barclay_boy111 0]

[quote user="Phillip J Fry"]Getting back to the issue of pressing, it must be asked what type of pressing you wish to play. Someone like Roy Hodgson, for example, encourages his players to sit deep and in shape until the opposition are within 30 yards of goal. When the opposition are within 30 yards, his sides press aggressively, looking to deny the opponent time on the ball. Barcelona play (or should it be played?) a 5 second press, where everyone presses aggressively for 5 seconds after losing the ball before retreating into their defensive shape. A team like Borussia Dortmund under Klopp, Southampton under Pochettino or any club managed by Bielsa will press very aggressively, all the way up the pitch, for the entirety of the game. 

[can u sit down please 0]

[quote user="ellis206"]

You hear this a lot at home games and away games.

I understand it in the midfield areas etc but you can''t get stuck in and close down an opposition defence when they are playing it across the back four, this would mean bringing a midfielder further forward leaving a massive gap behind them.

You also don''t want your strikers pointlessly burning themselves out chasing lost causes.

 

[/quote]

I would challenge this and say the final 3rd is the key area to win the ball.

At present and last yr we were winning the ball in our own half and we needed to do too much to get a goal.

[Holtcantshoot 0]

[quote user="ellis206"]

You hear this a lot at home games and away games.

I understand it in the midfield areas etc but you can''t get stuck in and close down an opposition defence when they are playing it across the back four, this would mean bringing a midfielder further forward leaving a massive gap behind them.

You also don''t want your strikers pointlessly burning themselves out chasing lost causes.

 

[/quote]I''m not sure I agree with this. I certainly felt on Sunday that the main tactical change Wolves made when we were on top for that 10 minute spell was to start closing down our back 4. As we lacked a target man and none of our defence are comfortable playing out from the back we ended up giving away possession quite regularly in the game and that made a big change to the pattern of play.It''s worth thinking about it from the defenders perspective. If you are trying to play a pass and someone is running at you this will greatly reduce both the time you have to make the pass and the potential passing options available to you. This will mean you''re more likely to make an ineffective sideways pass (see all the passes played by Norwich on Sunday) and more likely to clear the ball out of play through fear of losing possession. It''s obviously a balance dependent on the team you are playing against but can still have it''s uses, especially against teams who are poor on the ball (see Norwich and England). Spain however you may want to sit deep and draw them out of their own half before hitting on the counter-attack for instance.

[ellis206 0]

There is a reason teams play it round the back 4 and keeper though.

Take the Premier League for example, pretty much every team plays with 1 striker, how is 1 striker supposed to close down a defence? He can''t.

If we were to close down the defence it would mean bringing midfielders forward, leaving massive gaps behind us which can be exploited, this is what the best teams do. Which is why its so frustrating hearing people shout out in anger "close them down" when the defence are playing it around the back.

 

[grefstad 0]

Still, as the OP mentions, the lack of cohesive pressing has been totally absent in recent seasons.

But you got to operate as a unit when pressing. Doing it one by one is hopeless, and will just wear you out.

Doing it as a team is very effective though, and especially just after your own team has lost the ball. Look at Barcelona, Bayern, and even Southamption last year. Very impressive recaptures of the ball after they have lost it initially.

I also think it has got something to do with a lack of fitness. Whenever I see Norwich play, player for player the team seems a bit slower (Redmond an exception) and a bit less fit than other teams.

OK, it may be my own over-critical eye on my own team, but still, especially last season with Hughton the players seemed to barely moved in midfield, Johnson being one of the main culprits with very slow side-movement.

Same goes for Surman, who I think is more than suspect on the defense. Good on the ball, but not a man to do the dirty work in away games, and a totally wrong selection by Adams vs Wolves.

Both Surman and Wes are "luxury" players, which we can and should use in games where we expect to have a lot of the possession. In games were we are expected to graft, bring in Tettey and O´Neill when eligible.

Also, the diamond system is very fragile on the defensive. Thats why no Premership team uses this system (gives away a lot of space, especially on the wings, and require a lot of milage from your midfielders to cover. Also require brave fullbacks to help put offensively, and also defensively to cover spaces on the sides.

Going forward though, when you got a lot of possession, the diamond is a useful system.

It does require a lot of pace on the sides, which Norwich does not have, and against wolves, the only guy with a bit of pace (Redmond), was deployed as a forward, which left us with semi-slow midfielders doing the job at right and left mid (Bennett is not slow, but had a poor game).