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lake district canary

Hypotheticals.......

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We start the season with a defeat, struggle with a few draws, maybe the odd win, get to Christmas just below mid-table, don''t look as if we are going to be top........so when are the knives sharpened?   We get to a situation by Christmas, like with Hughton, where we are in a position to go for a push up the table, or could be dragged down the table.    We all know that things can change quickly and we could push on to play-offs or second, like we did last time - or we could stay in the doldrums like with Hughton.  

So if things aren''t going how you want - when are you going to start complaining?  Everyone knows I stood up for Hughton and supported the board in their decision to keep him on - because it could have gone either way.   I''ll support Adams too and I really like what the club appear to be doing behind the scenes - but at what stage will the boo boys be out in force?  At what stage will they decide they have had enough, if things don''t go well?  

Have we lost the art of supporting for supporting''s sake?   I felt under Hughton there was no patience with him right from day one. Adams I am sure will get more support, but can we support the long term view of things, or are too many people wanting instant gratification?   Can we wait and bide our time, supporting the manager and his colleagues through thick and thin, even when things don''t go as we want, straight away?  

The Hughton project failed - a man who was to take the club on to an established premiership position and develop the club from top to bottom. No one is more disappointed than me that it didn''t work out, but what about Adams?    We''ve already had the "cheap-option" card put about - and there will be people waiting for him to fail so they can say "I told you so".  

This board is great in one respect. It allows everyone to show their true colours.  The "the board are useless" and "the manager isn''t good enough" brigade can have their say.   But so can the rest of us and show up the vocal minority of  negative moaners for what they are. 

So do we allow Adams and his management team time to get things right?  Do we give them the whole season to get us up where we want them to be - or do we start throwing our toys out of the pram because we are 12th, or 14th most of the season - even though a good run could put us in the playoffs. 

This is all hypothetical of course, but nothing will ever convince me that the negativity shown to Hughton by some fans did not have some effect on the way things went.  Hughton failed, I have no problem with that, but I fear that some fans still don''t get it - to be successful at a club like ours we have to pull together - its always been that way.  Start with the negative cr*p and it just drags everybody down.   We can''t always have a Lambert/Holt situation where circumstances meant we struck gold.  We are starting a new era and I just hope that the penny has dropped that we will probably never have the kind of three season run we had with Lambert again.   The Adams project is in full sway - it WILL be successful - but if fans get too impatient too soon - it will only hold us back.  

This has turned into a monologue again, but wtf..........our fans are one of the main reasons we are such a good club - but we also need to remember we can be unhelpful to the team as well as helpful.   Keep positive and we might just get there next season  - start the "Adams out",  "Board out" etc etc if things get difficult, will just lead us nowhere.    I''ll be going to a proportion of the games, like I always do, so you can stick your "stream watcher" comments.   I just hope next season that the games I go to there won''t be booing or cries of "you don''t know what you''re doing", when we are still in a position to achieve our aims.

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[quote user="Bor Bor Bor"]They get until the end of August from me, and then a monthly reassessment based on results and whether Ian Holloway is available yet.[/quote]Sounds reasonable to me. However I''d pick Martin "Mad Dog" Allen over Holloway.

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Like Highland said, he should get 10 games minimum.

However, if we see anything like the major mistakes we had at the end of last season, then get him out, his tactics were ridiculous, but dropping down a level makes me hope that he''s got what it takes.

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You should just shut the FCUK UP!!! Other supporters have MASSIVELY different viewpoints to you and let us not forget it was YOU (and others that shared your views) that called it WRONG!NCFC did not get relegated because of so called ''negativity'' from its support, they were relegated because of the negativity from its first team management team-and the defeatist mindset that that instilled in the players,and the complacency of the board in failing to react to the situation that was unfolding in front of their eyes!!!Quit with your hectoring as,as you should have gathered from last season it makes FCUK ALL difference to what happens in the stands,be it CR or elswhere, or on the pitch!!!

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10-15 games.

The same number of games Hughton should have received if our board had been more astute!

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The season. As long as we are looking like playing well and competing.

If we are tumbling down the table post or at January with any real danger then that would obviously require a rethink.

But there would be little point in majorly reshuffling the backroom team, demanding a change of ethos of both that team and players, presumably significant player changes and building a long term vision, to just rip it all up if we aren''t top 6 in the first month or even 10 games.

I can''t see us hitting the ground running and challenging immediately for top, I hope we do, but I expect it will be a stop start opening to the season while all the change beds in. I think and hope overall though the changes will bare fruit.

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[quote user="Levi Stubbs"]You should just shut the FCUK UP!!! Other supporters have MASSIVELY different viewpoints to you and let us not forget it was YOU (and others that shared your views) that called it WRONG!NCFC did not get relegated because of so called ''negativity'' from its support, they were relegated because of the negativity from its first team management team-and the defeatist mindset that that instilled in the players,and the complacency of the board in failing to react to the situation that was unfolding in front of their eyes!!!Quit with your hectoring as,as you should have gathered from last season it makes FCUK ALL difference to what happens in the stands,be it CR or elswhere, or on the pitch!!!

[/quote]

THIS !!!

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[quote user="Monty13"]The season. As long as we are looking like playing well and competing. If we are tumbling down the table post or at January with any real danger then that would obviously require a rethink. But there would be little point in majorly reshuffling the backroom team, demanding a change of ethos of both that team and players, presumably significant player changes and building a long term vision, to just rip it all up if we aren''t top 6 in the first month or even 10 games. I can''t see us hitting the ground running and challenging immediately for top, I hope we do, but I expect it will be a stop start opening to the season while all the change beds in. I think and hope overall though the changes will bare fruit.[/quote]

[Y]

It will in all likelihood not bear fruit immediately so a bit of patience from the fans will be needed.  The only way I can see change after ten games is if we look truly shambolic, Gunn style.

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The parachute payments begin to unwind in a year''s time. We lose any of our remaining top players in a year''s time. The idea seems to be that a situation is allowed to develop of consolidation in tier two without even a nod towards trying to push for promotion?

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[quote user="Barclay seats 4849 the 3rd"][quote user="Levi Stubbs"]it makes FCUK ALL difference to what happens in the stands,be it CR or elswhere, or on the pitch!!![/quote]

THIS !!![/quote]

That is where you are so wrong.  Players are not robots.   They and managers talk about fans being the twelfth man on the pitch when they cheering the team on.   If there is too much tension in the crowd - and don''t tell me the crowd doesn''t get tense or nervous at times because it does - then that can have a worse effect - like the team playing playing with ten men.  You''re wrong if you think that the crowd doesn''t have an effect on the pitch, for good or bad.   Totally wrong.

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[quote user="Highland Canary"]The parachute payments begin to unwind in a year''s time. We lose any of our remaining top players in a year''s time. The idea seems to be that a situation is allowed to develop of consolidation in tier two without even a nod towards trying to push for promotion?[/quote]

The aim is to push for promotion at first attempt. The aim of the fans is not to panic if we aren''t romping away after ten games. Go into the season with an over-expectation and you will be disappointed. Give the new structure a bit of time to gel.

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You cannot afford to lose many games if you want automatic promotion so an early re-assessment will be needed if things are going pear shaped.

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We were shown how it should be done last season.

Wigan appointed Owen Coyle in June.

By December it wasn''t working.

Wigan appointed Uwe Rosler in December.

It worked.

We are in the same position now as Wigan were last year. We give our new manager a fair chance but if changes are needed to be made, they need to be made.

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"5 games minimum then I turn"

I think you turned a long time ago Waveney.

Do you you ever get the right words in the correct order?

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[quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="Barclay seats 4849 the 3rd"][quote user="Levi Stubbs"]it makes FCUK ALL difference to what happens in the stands,be it CR or elswhere, or on the pitch!!![/quote]

THIS !!![/quote]

That is where you are so wrong.  Players are not robots.   They and managers talk about fans being the twelfth man on the pitch when they cheering the team on.   If there is too much tension in the crowd - and don''t tell me the crowd doesn''t get tense or nervous at times because it does - then that can have a worse effect - like the team playing playing with ten men.  You''re wrong if you think that the crowd doesn''t have an effect on the pitch, for good or bad.   Totally wrong.

[/quote]I''d agree with you LDC in your response that particular statement from Levi, but for the most part I agree with the other points he made in his earlier posting.You are skating on very thin ice when you issue criticism, both actual and implicit, of fans from last season. Until it was all over bar the shouting the fans stuck behind Hughton and the team in an exemplary manner, especially at the games. Ok there was some critical stuff on here, and I''m happy to admit that I was responsible for some of it, for which I make no apologies. But, some of the rose tinted stuff penned by you and the other inners became, frankly , bizarre. I''m sure you will not agree with this, but I have recently wondered whether, if we had been more vocal in our criticism of the Hughton regime, and earlier, whether the board would have had less excuse to sit on its hands and let the whole sorry saga rumble on for as long as it did...even to the extent whether we''d have gone down ?Lets be clear about this LDC. We are being told how strong a position NCFC are now. The new thrusting managerial team, the talented group of players, the new 20+ goal striker, the absence of debt, the parachute payments. The list goes on. And yes, I do see all that and am happy to accept it all. But there are no''unwinnable games '' in the Champs as there were in the PL. We can, and must be looking to take 3 points from each and every game. And, yes, I''ll say it that a play off places in the absolute minimum requirement for me in 14-15 . I''d be interested to know what yours is, but I do hope that this is not an early exercise in geting your excuses in first.?. So I''ll be getting behind the lads from the start, but , indeed , if , in your hypothetical world things are not shaping up that way, I''ll not be slow in coming forward.

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[quote user="Yellow Wall"]We were shown how it should be done last season.

Wigan appointed Owen Coyle in June.

By December it wasn''t working.

Wigan appointed Uwe Rosler in December.

It worked.

We are in the same position now as Wigan were last year. We give our new manager a fair chance but if changes are needed to be made, they need to be made.[/quote]

Chopping and changing managers is not the answer.  You have to give things time to work.   A season is like a tennis match. You can be two sets down and look down and out but can come back strong and win three sets to two - so you can be quite low down in the championship table, even by the end of January - and still find form/confidence to put a run together to make play offs or even promotion. 

 

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[quote user="lharman7"]10-15 games. The same number of games Hughton should have received if our board had been more astute![/quote]

 

Huzzah!  [Y]

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To be fair, i supported Hughton right up until we just beat hull with a late goal, which was towards end of dec/early Jan i think, but many of the Hughton outers that wanted him out from day one were probably right

And lets not forget day 1 began with a 5-0 defeat away to Fulham in a display that at the time was shocking as it was so unlike what we had been used to but became typical under Hughton.

I would hope, IF things start slowly that Adams is given time, but i think it depends on results ofcourse but also performance, if we are drawing lots of games but playing well then i think most will stay with him, but if we are struggling and playing poorly then he could be gone within 15 games, but as it stand at the moment i really cant see this squad not winning games so expect at the very least to be around 6th place, but with very good management should be top 2

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Hard one to answer.

 

Does the board expect promotion next season? I''d say its desired, of course it is-but I don''t think they''d have put this new structure in place as a quick fix to then get rod of if it isn''t working in november-December-January, whenever.

 

Yes, we will start to see the parachute payments dwindle after a year, then, heaven forbid, two years out of the Premier League. Which is when the emphasis on getting our own players into the first team from, and up from, the youth set up will be hugely important. Thats the long term objective of the appointment and set up. i wouldn''t expect the first team to be dominated by the youth team players next season but, come 2015/16 and onwaeds, if we haven''t progressed, then they''ll need, and expect, players to step up and make an impression.

 

So I don''t think Adams and the new set up have been told its promotion next season or you''re all out, the very nature of the new set up suggests that they''re all in place for whatever needs may follow if we don''t go up-yes, go all out for promotion but be prepared for it to not happen and have a policy and managerial team in place as the emphasis changes.

 

Unless, therefore, things are catastrophically bad next season-and by that I mean one not unlike 07/08, I''d not be surprised to see them all in place this time next year, with the emphasis and direction changing with regards to the first team but with the objective remaining the same.

 

 

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And what pray is posting up this supposed hypothetical sh ite, if not to drag out past arguments ?To what end .... other than to cause friction amongst folk on here ?The season is still a couple of months away and here you are talking about the manager failing ............................. whilst bleating on about fans getting behind the team.Sadly there are still those too dim to not to see through this troll.

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Houghton''s "style" of football was a disgrace to the word "entertainment" and that had a lot to do with the lack of support from the terraces.  Winning ugly is acceptable, but drawing and losing ugly isn''t.  If Adams gives us entertaining and attacking football where we try to win, rather than try to avoid defeat, he will get time.  The forelock tugging, eighteen yard box hugging inept and defensive monstrosity Houghton implemented must never be seen again at our fine club.

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[quote user="Highland Canary"]The parachute payments begin to unwind in a year''s time. We lose any of our remaining top players in a year''s time. The idea seems to be that a situation is allowed to develop of consolidation in tier two without even a nod towards trying to push for promotion?[/quote]begin to unwind !we get £16m in 15/16 - that''s around £3m more than the paupers get in totaland given that we pulled in around £23m in our last season in the Championship I hardly think this doom and gloom is warrantedif we were able to put together a promtion winning squad last time with NO parachute payments nor an emerging bunch of youth players then we can do it again this time

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[quote user="City1st"]And what pray is posting up this supposed hypothetical sh ite, if not to drag out past arguments ?To what end .... other than to cause friction amongst folk on here ?The season is still a couple of months away and here you are talking about the manager failing ............................. whilst bleating on about fans getting behind the team.Sadly there are still those too dim to not to see through this troll.[/quote]

What a joy of a post, but you, as usual, are like a dog p*ssing at the wrong tree trunk.......

Its a legitimate thread.   There has been quite a lot of "bleating" already about the selection of Adams - and several posters saying he has to do well straight away.   My point is that we have to be patient - and yes I''ve said it before - but it is relevant, whoever is manager.   I think we''ll be successful under Adams - but it may not be instant success - it may take a while to get the balance right. 

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