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Oz Canary

Southampton & Koeman

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Apologies if there has been a thread on this, couldn''t see it.

It''s a good thing that no quality managers were available for us to approach earlier otherwise we might have ended up with Neil Adam''s (or Gunny Version 2). Maybe I am being unkind to Neil Adams, but really, who would know as apart from junior football he''s no record to call upon. Where as Ronald Koeman has been espoused for a few jobs in England since the turn of the year most recently the Spurs job before it was given to Potechinno. With Koeman signing a three year deal with the Saints, you can''t tell me there a bigger club than us. It''s just a club that has bigger ambitions and better footballing heads making decisions.

After listening to an interview with Matt Le Tiss, he was excited about the overseas players that Koeman could potentially bring in. Would love to have seen something like that happen with us but then again Koeman being Dutch probably wouldn''t have passed Delia''s fit & proper test.

 

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I dont think there has been a thread on this subject before, which is surprising I guess.

Aside of comparisons with Neil Adams and the wrongs and rights of the decision our club made, and time will tell on that one, Koeman does look an inspired choice by Southampton.

His track record is very impressive and with some major clubs and it does seem an appropriate appointment when looking at how Southampton are fast tracking their development as a club.

As for Southampton being a "bigger club" than Norwich City, always difficult to judge.....BUT....the wealth behind Southampton is of a totally different scale to us, which certainly gives them a huge advantage and results in the signing of a Manager like Koeman for sure....and amazing to think that it was only 2009 when they went into adminstration!! So, they have "bigger ambitions" probably because they have much larger pockets than us right now......much larger.... 

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Technically they are not a ''bigger'' club than us, but they finished easily in the top 10 and we were not a good managerial appointment from Jan onwards.

Since Hughton went, then the likes of Koeman were never going to touch us, it''s not like he was desperate to get back into management, and would want any job going.

As Dubai Mark said , their money behind them is massive, so we can''t compete with that, nor League position.

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Southampton have a bigger ground, higher attendances, a larger away following, owners with money and better players - it is undoubtedly a bigger club than us. And they appear to be able to make managerial change decisions before it''s too late and without recourse to Flown from the Nest.

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Did you honestly think Koeman would take on a championship club? Seriously?

And yes they are a bigger and better club than us. They are a premiership club for starters, have an amazing academy set up. They have England Internationals, Bigger stadium which they fill.

I''m not putting Norwich down but after a few years in the Premiership a number of fans seem to have lost perspective (read delusional) . If you think the board didn''t do their job by not appointing some one of Koemans standing in the game then you are one of these people.

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Are we delusional for wanting a proper manager and the best we could attract ? how many clubs promoted to the Premier League would install the bloke co commentating on the radio that day three seasons later ? its a decision that defies belief and while Delia owns this football club and makes footballing decisions it will always be tin pot . Adams is Gunn Mk 2 and it will end the same way .

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I think a lot of these threads are ironic.Firstly they are claiming that there were better and more intelligent managers out there in January.Then they suggest they would have fallen flat on their face with honour, respect and shock that our club would want them and be here in a shot.No. Any intelligent manager, who is not desperate for work, waits until the summer before agreeing to manage a team. Especially when you are talking about top flight football.I very much doubt Koeman would have made himself available as an option to us in January.The fact that the OP mentioned him in the same breath as Spurs aught to be enough to suggest that. As for Southampton - they may not be a ''bigger'' club in terms of fan base (which it appears a lot of people seem to really mean) but they are a well known club, a club currently strongly backed by a cash rich owner and also a club that last season was knocking on the door of a Europa League spot at times at least.If it was a flat out competition between us and Southampton and our league positions were similar and our financial backings were similar I would agree - but otherwise I think people leave out some essential information.

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Op is just another knobhead ex-pat that watches a stream and think that entitles him to an opinion.

Yawn!

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Buh wrote the following post at 18/06/2014 12:47 PM:

Op is just another knobhead ex-pat that watches a stream and think that entitles him to an opinion.

Yawn!

-----------------------------------------------------------

What a knob you are sir.

In response to the OP-

I think our ambition does need to be questioned, if it hasn''t already been. The appointment has been made after trying to get 2 other managers in who didn''t want the job after talks so we have to see how Adams is going to do as he was third choice, it might turn out to be a master stroke (personally can''t believe he was as high as third choice, but there you go). Personally, having seen the huge mistakes he made in the games he managed as well as his interviews (where he says the right things but just looks like he''s going to lose the match before its even started).i''m a bit cautious and the thing that is going to help him the most is having the best team in the league and low expectations from the norwich city fans who have stated they''d be happy to keep him if we''re 12th half way through the season

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There are plenty of examples of coaches being promoted from within and doing well, there are also plenty of examples of it going badly.

There are plenty of examples of getting a "name" in and doing well, there are loads of examples of this going badly.

We simply don''t know how it''s going to go.

We are trying to change our structure from the boom and bust nature of having a Manager that controls everything. A number of clubs of our size are doing the same. It''s because as soon as we have some success then a bigger club will steal that manager, the whole spine of the club is ripped out and we have to start again. It makes sense to me but that''s only my opinion.

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You do know that we are a Championship club? How on earth could we ever attract somebody like Koeman here?

If anything the lack of ambition was shown when Lambert left, and we appointed Chris Hughton, whilst Swansea went out and grabbed Michael Laudrup.

We aren''t in the same ballpark anymore, we missed our chance to go and get somebody like Koeman a long time ago. We were seen as a progressive club on the up when Lambert left and that was our time.

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[quote user="hertfordyellow"]There are plenty of examples of coaches being promoted from within and doing well, there are also plenty of examples of it going badly.

There are plenty of examples of getting a "name" in and doing well, there are loads of examples of this going badly.

We simply don''t know how it''s going to go.

We are trying to change our structure from the boom and bust nature of having a Manager that controls everything. A number of clubs of our size are doing the same. It''s because as soon as we have some success then a bigger club will steal that manager, the whole spine of the club is ripped out and we have to start again. It makes sense to me but that''s only my opinion.[/quote]That is partly why a comparison between our choice of Adams and Southampton''s of Koeman is unfair. Another is money. Another is that we are a division lower.But what this summer has also shown is how little obvious talent there is out there. Fulham and Cardiff have both held on to the managers under whom they werre relegated, as - sort of - have we.Leeds'' first choice apparently was the Reading academy manager, and are now contemplating someone sacked by Forest Green.Notingham Forest have opted for Stuart Pearce, who last club-managed seven years ago.And West Brom, wth the advantage of being in the Premier Leagie, have gone for Everton''s academy manager.There is a theme there of clubs now picking head coaches, with some of the managerial stuff being dealt with by others. But also an element of scrapping the barrel. One poster said after Royle was appointed as football consultant that if we wanted experience why hadn''t we simply appointed such a manager, with some years of Championship success. When pressed to name a couple of available managers who fitted that description that the club could have gone for there was silence. Not surprisingly, since apart from Mackay, who turned us down, no-one springs to mind.

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Can someone point me to an article / solid evidence to say that Mackay turned us down? I know he spurned us a couple of seasons ago when he we appointed Hughton, but is there any evidence this time round?As hertfordyellow says and you agree Purple, there really doesn''t seem to be much out there that were interested. I''m not even convinced that Malky has done enough yet to prove he is more than just the next Aidy Boothroyd. One promotion on the back of a £15million spend - which at the time was quite a chunk of money for the Championship. I suspect some of the relegated teams may spend more this time round with parachute payments. Boothroyd managed similar feats, arguably with less  money, but they proved to be short lived.

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[quote user="chicken"]Can someone point me to an article / solid evidence to say that Mackay turned us down? I know he spurned us a couple of seasons ago when he we appointed Hughton, but is there any evidence this time round?As hertfordyellow says and you agree Purple, there really doesn''t seem to be much out there that were interested. I''m not even convinced that Malky has done enough yet to prove he is more than just the next Aidy Boothroyd. One promotion on the back of a £15million spend - which at the time was quite a chunk of money for the Championship. I suspect some of the relegated teams may spend more this time round with parachute payments. Boothroyd managed similar feats, arguably with less  money, but they proved to be short lived.[/quote]The two journalists who seem to have by far the best Carrow Road sources both in effect said it. Charlie Wyett said Mackay had been our first choice, and Mick Dennis said that after a week of talks with Mackay the impression grew that he was stalling, hoping for a better offer elsewhere. As a result we started to look more favourably on Adams.And the club''s two public statements fit in with that. The first that they would unveil the manager manager within a week, which didn''t happen. And then the radio interview, just after that deadline had expired, in which Delia said they hoped to announce the choice soon but that it was complicated.That all tallies with them having initially settled on Mackay and being prepared to try to persuade him, but then gradually losing patience and falling back on Adams. If Adams had been the first choice he really could have been announced straight away.

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I don''t think it is a surprise that Swansea went with a loyal "Swansea" man after Laudrup. He was less than committed and spent quite a bit of mid-week in Paris apparently. They were "ambitious" to get Laudrup but he nearly relegated them. Quite a few clubs are going for men they know and can work with rather than chasing the big name all the time. Norwich are certainly not alone, it''s not lack of ambition it''s trying to break the cycle of boom and bust.

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[quote user="GrantsMoustache"]You do know that we are a Championship club? How on earth could we ever attract somebody like Koeman here? If anything the lack of ambition was shown when Lambert left, and we appointed Chris Hughton, whilst Swansea went out and grabbed Michael Laudrup. We aren''t in the same ballpark anymore, we missed our chance to go and get somebody like Koeman a long time ago. We were seen as a progressive club on the up when Lambert left and that was our time.[/quote]

 

I think Norwich would have struggled to bring in a ''big name'' manager at that time - Norwich''s budget was very tight due to the massive burden of debt repayments to be paid. Also, the appointment of Hughton was actually very successful in his first season as Norwich manager - being able to keep the team in the League (let alone 11th) with a tiny budget was pretty much a miracle - he just couldn''t build on that success.

 

It''s also worth pointing out that very few saw the Laudrup appointment as a good idea when it first happened - he had a very dubious record and was known to fall out with boards pretty quickly (as he did again with Swansea). In hindsight it is easy to say that was a good appointment, but at the time it was a very brave call.

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[quote user="Buh"]Op is just another knobhead ex-pat that watches a stream and think that entitles him to an opinion. Yawn![/quote]

Buh, obviously the verbal and written word isn''t a strength of yours.

My point was not that Koeman would take us on now after being relegated but more if Hughton was sacked when he should have been, November or December, I find it almost impossible to believe that some quality manager would not have wanted to take the job on.

And with regards to your statement about being an ex-pat. What''s that got to do with anything. Please don''t be so ignorant it makes you look ridiculous and small minded.

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[quote user="Oz Canary"]

[quote user="Buh"]Op is just another knobhead ex-pat that watches a stream and think that entitles him to an opinion. Yawn![/quote]

Buh, obviously the verbal and written word isn''t a strength of yours.

My point was not that Koeman would take us on now after being relegated but more if Hughton was sacked when he should have been, November or December, I find it almost impossible to believe that some quality manager would not have wanted to take the job on.

And with regards to your statement about being an ex-pat. What''s that got to do with anything. Please don''t be so ignorant it makes you look ridiculous and small minded.

[/quote]

But who OZ canary? Who? Most decent managers want to access all possibilities, pick a club and have a pre-season to mold things together.

What a lot of people in this thread are arguing is that there wasn''t this pool of talented coaches available and willing to take on the role.

Ronald Koeman would not take on that job in January I''m confident of that. Who do you think we missed out on?

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[quote user="Highland Canary"]Mackay was available post the Fulham home debacle but any journeyman manager - for example Warnock - would have kept us up.[/quote]

 

Wasn''t Mackay still sorting out the legal issues re his sacking which meant he wasn''t available and it''s a bit of a leap to state that ''any journeyman'' manager would''ve kept us up.

 

 

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Highland - it wouldn''t have done.If he had taken a job before compensation was sorted, he may have ended up with none, for the sake of a month or so, and seeing what other clubs had vacancies in the summer.What it has come down to is that some managers, and more fool them, were hedging their bets in going for other, higher profile jobs.And I do think more fool them. Mackay had half a season in the premier league - does he really think that is enough to be a good shot for a premier league management position yet?People question Irvine being appointed at West Brom, but he has arguably more experience.

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[quote user="hertfordyellow"][quote user="Oz Canary"]

[quote user="Buh"]Op is just another knobhead ex-pat that watches a stream and think that entitles him to an opinion. Yawn![/quote]

Buh, obviously the verbal and written word isn''t a strength of yours.

My point was not that Koeman would take us on now after being relegated but more if Hughton was sacked when he should have been, November or December, I find it almost impossible to believe that some quality manager would not have wanted to take the job on.

And with regards to your statement about being an ex-pat. What''s that got to do with anything. Please don''t be so ignorant it makes you look ridiculous and small minded.

[/quote]

But who OZ canary? Who? Most decent managers want to access all possibilities, pick a club and have a pre-season to mold things together.

What a lot of people in this thread are arguing is that there wasn''t this pool of talented coaches available and willing to take on the role.

Ronald Koeman would not take on that job in January I''m confident of that. Who do you think we missed out on?[/quote]Of the four Premier League clubs threatened with relegation that changed managers mid-season (as opposd to very early or very late) only Swansea (Monk) went for a home-grown choice, and that was an internal promotion.Fulham twice (Meulensteen and Magath), West Brom (Mel) and Cardiff (Solskjaer) all went - or had to go - overseas. That suggests various possibilities. One is that those particular foreign candidates felt they had nothing to lose by stepping up and trying their hand in the Premier League, even if they ended up being relegated.It also suggests that the British managers (such as Mackay) who were supposedly available didn''t want to take the risk of damaging their reputations by taking over mid-stream, and were prepared to wait until the summer to see which clubs were where and what was available.

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[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="hertfordyellow"][quote user="Oz Canary"]

[quote user="Buh"]Op is just another knobhead ex-pat that watches a stream and think that entitles him to an opinion. Yawn![/quote]

Buh, obviously the verbal and written word isn''t a strength of yours.

My point was not that Koeman would take us on now after being relegated but more if Hughton was sacked when he should have been, November or December, I find it almost impossible to believe that some quality manager would not have wanted to take the job on.

And with regards to your statement about being an ex-pat. What''s that got to do with anything. Please don''t be so ignorant it makes you look ridiculous and small minded.

[/quote] But who OZ canary? Who? Most decent managers want to access all possibilities, pick a club and have a pre-season to mold things together. What a lot of people in this thread are arguing is that there wasn''t this pool of talented coaches available and willing to take on the role. Ronald Koeman would not take on that job in January I''m confident of that. Who do you think we missed out on?[/quote]

Of the four Premier League clubs threatened with relegation that changed managers mid-season (as opposd to very early or very late) only Swansea (Monk) went for a home-grown choice, and that was an internal promotion.

Fulham twice (Meulensteen and Magath), West Brom (Mel) and Cardiff (Solskjaer) all went - or had to go - overseas. That suggests various possibilities. One is that those particular foreign candidates felt they had nothing to lose by stepping up and trying their hand in the Premier League, even if they ended up being relegated.

It also suggests that the British managers (such as Mackay) who were supposedly available didn''t want to take the risk of damaging their reputations by taking over mid-stream, and were prepared to wait until the summer to see which clubs were where and what was available.

[/quote]

 

Also worth pointing out that Meulensteen, Magath, Mel and Solskjaer were either unemployed when appointed or in the close season with their club - in the case of Solskjaer.

 

Managers don''t often leave one club to join another midseason.

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You are confusing a foreign sounding name with proven quality manager. Meulensteen had not managed a club, Magath fair enough. Mel was a left field appointment, Solskjaer had some success in a v limited league. These were all massive risks and all failed. West Brom stayed up but... they were mostly woeful under his management.

I''m sure Magath had more money than he could turn down thrown at him rather than him "choosing" Fulham as progressive move in his career, money we don''t have.

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[quote user="hertfordyellow"]You are confusing a foreign sounding name with proven quality manager. Meulensteen had not managed a club, Magath fair enough. Mel was a left field appointment, Solskjaer had some success in a v limited league. These were all massive risks and all failed. West Brom stayed up but... they were mostly woeful under his management.

I''m sure Magath had more money than he could turn down thrown at him rather than him "choosing" Fulham as progressive move in his career, money we don''t have.[/quote]I''m not sure whether that is aimed at me or Bethnal or both of us, or someone else. But I am certainly not making that mistake and I doubt Bethnal is either.

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[quote user="hertfordyellow"]You are confusing a foreign sounding name with proven quality manager. Meulensteen had not managed a club, Magath fair enough. Mel was a left field appointment, Solskjaer had some success in a v limited league. These were all massive risks and all failed. West Brom stayed up but... they were mostly woeful under his management. I''m sure Magath had more money than he could turn down thrown at him rather than him "choosing" Fulham as progressive move in his career, money we don''t have.[/quote]

 

He had albeit brief spells as manager of Brondby & Anhzi, he just likes to walk away does Rene.

 

 

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It was directed towards you Purple.

Apart from Magath, if the other managers were English, with the background these Managers had, they would be deemed a huge risk, just because they are Dutch etc they are deemed as an ambitious appointment.

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[quote user="hertfordyellow"]It was directed towards you Purple.

Apart from Magath, if the other managers were English, with the background these Managers had, they would be deemed a huge risk, just because they are Dutch etc they are deemed as an ambitious appointment.[/quote]In that case you have entirely misunderstood my post. I was not advocating those choices. Simply pointing out what choices were made and suggesting that the clubs involved ended up looking overseas because there were no suitable home-grown candidates available.

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