Benefits Britain - channel 5

[ricardo 7,349]

[quote user="YankeeCanary"]

[quote user="ricardo"][quote user="whoareyou"][quote user="Ice Cold Pineapple Soda"]If you''re feeding your huge family at McDonald''s every day, and your income is provided by the government, then the government had WAY overestimated how much your family needs to survive. McDonald''s is far more expensive thsn groceries.[/quote]Not if you don''t have a cooker or fridge or even know how to cook a meal.Successive generations have been ignored from society and given money for nothing and this is what you end up with...a frighteningly uneducated large group of people who have not the slightest idea how to integrate into society nor any skills, social or otherwise, to offer anything to it.

[/quote]If you watched the programme you would have seen that they had little trouble operating mobile phones, IPads and XBoxes. One of the girls had a job but chucked it in because she said people talked down to her. Her father who had sired 26 kids with 15 different women was moaning because his benefits had been cut to £500 quid a week. Dear oh bloody dear, what has happened to our nation.Too a small extent I agree that it''s to do with education but I think it has more to do with poverty of expectation. They seem to have accepted that a life on benefits is all they can aspire to.[/quote]

 

I''m aligned with your views on this Ricardo. Here in the U.S. those that are able, but unwilling, to make a living for themselves grows significantly with each passing year.

There was a story out of Detroit yesterday that 75% of the people in the inner city are not paying their water bill. However, as soon as their water supply is cut off they miraculously bring their account up to date. Overall the country is rife with people who choose to live in rundown shacks and surrounding garden space left to weeds, while those same folks have to have the largest television screens, cell phones and designer clothes. On my many trips through such areas it is common to see Cadillacs or other high priced vehicles in the driveways of such otherwise rundown living areas. If education  was the major solution to such problems then there is no shortage of opportunity. Unfortunately, it is more to do with an expectation culture increasingly being passed down from one generation to the next of "free" entitlements are out there. You just have to know how to work the system. 

[/quote]Living in the USA, you probably didn''t see the C5 prog Yankee. I''ve got friends and relations in the US and I can honestly say that I would have been embarrassed to let them see what goes on in the UK.There should be a system that helps people through times of hardship but not one that promotes idleness as a lifestyle choice. If you pay people to be poor you will never run out of poor people.

[Wizard of Waveney 0]

[quote user="morty"]The worst thing about this is that these people cynically exploit the welfare state by churning out more and more children.Anyone with a shred of decency or common sense wouldn''t consider bringing a child into the world, unless they knew they could provide for it.[/quote]

Even with all these kids the binners still can''t fill portaloo road

[William Darby 0]

[quote user="Ice Cold Pineapple Soda"]There is no acceptable excuse for people being given so much. However alienated and unenlightened they may be, they know how to make a sandwich or put milk on corn flakes. If they can afford McDonald''s daily, they can afford a fridge. Making excuses for these mopes only serves to legitimize and accept such behavior to the point they don''t feel stigmatized and therefore lose incentive to get out of the system.[/quote]

It''s a Dail Mail myth  people get that much.  Pensioners get the most hand outs.

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2013/jan/08/uk-benefit-welfare-spending

[ricardo 7,349]

[quote user="Private Frazer"][quote user="Ice Cold Pineapple Soda"]There is no acceptable excuse for people being given so much. However alienated and unenlightened they may be, they know how to make a sandwich or put milk on corn flakes. If they can afford McDonald''s daily, they can afford a fridge. Making excuses for these mopes only serves to legitimize and accept such behavior to the point they don''t feel stigmatized and therefore lose incentive to get out of the system.[/quote]

It''s a Dail Mail myth  people get that much.  Pensioners get the most hand outs.

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2013/jan/08/uk-benefit-welfare-spending

[/quote]

However the Guardian failed to mention that the vast majority of Pensioners have worked and paid their taxes into the system all of their working lives. Most Pensioners would take great exception to the OAP being termed a "handout".What the Benefits Prog showed was people who have never paid anything in and have been a burden on tax payers and don''t seem the least bit inclined to do anything for themselves except game the system.

[William Darby 0]

[quote user="ricardo"][quote user="Private Frazer"][quote user="Ice Cold Pineapple Soda"]There is no acceptable excuse for people being given so much. However alienated and unenlightened they may be, they know how to make a sandwich or put milk on corn flakes. If they can afford McDonald''s daily, they can afford a fridge. Making excuses for these mopes only serves to legitimize and accept such behavior to the point they don''t feel stigmatized and therefore lose incentive to get out of the system.[/quote]

It''s a Dail Mail myth  people get that much.  Pensioners get the most hand outs.

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2013/jan/08/uk-benefit-welfare-spending

[/quote]

However the Guardian failed to mention that the vast majority of Pensioners have worked and paid their taxes into the system all of their working lives. Most Pensioners would take great exception to the OAP being termed a "handout".What the Benefits Prog showed was people who have never paid anything in and have been a burden on tax payers and don''t seem the least bit inclined to do anything for themselves except game the system.[/quote]

Of course, but it does show that the life long career unemployed hand outs is really just a drop in the ocean.

[ricardo 7,349]

[quote user="Private Frazer"][quote user="ricardo"][quote user="Private Frazer"][quote user="Ice Cold Pineapple Soda"]There is no acceptable excuse for people being given so much. However alienated and unenlightened they may be, they know how to make a sandwich or put milk on corn flakes. If they can afford McDonald''s daily, they can afford a fridge. Making excuses for these mopes only serves to legitimize and accept such behavior to the point they don''t feel stigmatized and therefore lose incentive to get out of the system.[/quote]

It''s a Dail Mail myth  people get that much.  Pensioners get the most hand outs.

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2013/jan/08/uk-benefit-welfare-spending

[/quote]

However the Guardian failed to mention that the vast majority of Pensioners have worked and paid their taxes into the system all of their working lives. Most Pensioners would take great exception to the OAP being termed a "handout".What the Benefits Prog showed was people who have never paid anything in and have been a burden on tax payers and don''t seem the least bit inclined to do anything for themselves except game the system.[/quote]

Of course, but it does show that the life long career unemployed hand outs is really just a drop in the ocean.

[/quote]Well that''s alright then. The Ipswich guy can knock out a few more kids and swan about on the dole safe in the knowledge that nobody really gives a flying fu(k about him living off everyone elses taxes.

[Gainer the Gopher 0]

PF, I''m basing my comments on what the OP wrote which included them claiming to eat at McDonald''s daily. If you can afford to do that on welfare, welfare has posts its true purpose.

What makes it worse is when someone suggests making cuts or having tougher standards to qualify, they are vilified as being heartless. The truth is helping people help themselves takes much more heart and character than throwing money at them.

[im spartacus canary 0]

i can''t believe people are actually making excuses for these "people" they are basically vermin... everybody should be responsible for themselves it is simple enough if you can''t afford kids don''t have them...if  a mistake happens do your best but don''t have any more until you can support them, some of the drivel i have read on here making excuses for these labotomised inbreds is enough to make you weep... basically places like ipswich should be nuked OTBC

[crabbycanary 2]

Very succinct Spartacus, and I feel that nothing need to be added to your comments.

[William Darby 0]

[quote user="Ice Cold Pineapple Soda"]PF, I''m basing my comments on what the OP wrote which included them claiming to eat at McDonald''s daily. If you can afford to do that on welfare, welfare has posts its true purpose.

What makes it worse is when someone suggests making cuts or having tougher standards to qualify, they are vilified as being heartless. The truth is helping people help themselves takes much more heart and character than throwing money at them.[/quote]

Isn''t that like the old saying.  Using a sledgehammer to crack a nut?  Shaft the genuine majority to get a the tiny minority who take the piss?

Seriously though, stuff them.  Those few  used  (like I said a few posts back) in these programmes are diversary tactic for the ordinary man in the street to turn on themselves, arguing  the toss over a few coppers.  While this is going on.  You''ve got MPs,  and big businesses etc, collectively ferretting billions away in tax avoidance. 

[splutcho 173]

Spot on Private Frazer, on everything.

[im spartacus canary 0]

[quote user="Private Frazer"][quote user="Ice Cold Pineapple Soda"]PF, I''m basing my comments on what the OP wrote which included them claiming to eat at McDonald''s daily. If you can afford to do that on welfare, welfare has posts its true purpose.

What makes it worse is when someone suggests making cuts or having tougher standards to qualify, they are vilified as being heartless. The truth is helping people help themselves takes much more heart and character than throwing money at them.[/quote]

Isn''t that like the old saying.  Using a sledgehammer to crack a nut?  Shaft the genuine majority to get a the tiny minority who take the piss?

Seriously though, stuff them.  Those few  used  (like I said a few posts back) in these programmes are diversary tactic for the ordinary man in the street to turn on themselves, arguing  the toss over a few coppers.  While this is going on.  You''ve got MPs,  and big businesses etc, collectively ferretting billions away in tax avoidance. 

[/quote]i don''t blame them for avoiding tax if that is what it goes on  [:D]

[Herman 9,717]

[quote user="Private Frazer"][quote user="Ice Cold Pineapple Soda"]PF, I''m basing my comments on what the OP wrote which included them claiming to eat at McDonald''s daily. If you can afford to do that on welfare, welfare has posts its true purpose. What makes it worse is when someone suggests making cuts or having tougher standards to qualify, they are vilified as being heartless. The truth is helping people help themselves takes much more heart and character than throwing money at them.[/quote]

Isn''t that like the old saying.  Using a sledgehammer to crack a nut?  Shaft the genuine majority to get a the tiny minority who take the piss?

Seriously though, stuff them.  Those few  used  (like I said a few posts back) in these programmes are diversary tactic for the ordinary man in the street to turn on themselves, arguing  the toss over a few coppers.  While this is going on.  You''ve got MPs,  and big businesses etc, collectively ferretting billions away in tax avoidance. 

[/quote]

Pretty much in agreement with this statement[Y]

[Gainer the Gopher 0]

Sorry, PF, my typo made my comment unintelligible. It should have read "....if you can do that, then welfare has LOST its true purpose".

[Nuff Said 5,092]

It clearly doesn''t take much to start people foaming at the mouth and complaining about "the poor" does it?1) Where are the programmes showing all the families on welfare who do survive without eating McDonalds, but just live a miserable life of poverty, trying to do the best for their families? Nowhere because it doesn''t make for high ratings. Have you considered that it''s in the programme makers'' interest to portray their subjects as badly as possible, so they will pick out the worst examples, and then exaggerate their behaviour - perhaps paying for their junk food, in the same way Benefits Street handed out cans of lager to people they were filming?2) Where are the programmes showing the behaviour of the other end of the income scale? Just a fraction of the £35 billion the UK loses a year to tax evasion could make a massive difference to most of us, whether we''re on benefits or not. Perhaps if a significant majority those who govern us weren''t part of the public school/Oxbridge privileged "elite" there might be a little less desire to look after the rich and their needs.

[William Darby 0]

[quote user="im spartacus"]i can''t believe people are actually making excuses for these "people" they are basically vermin... everybody should be responsible for themselves it is simple enough if you can''t afford kids don''t have them...if  a mistake happens do your best but don''t have any more until you can support them, some of the drivel i have read on here making excuses for these labotomised inbreds is enough to make you weep... basically places like ipswich should be nuked OTBC[/quote]

The irony is, the country can''t afford NOT to have kids.  Take housing, schools, doctors etc out of the equation for a second.  People aren''t breeding enough to sustain all the pensioners in the future, remember thats where the biggest chunk of benefit goes.  That''s why we have so much immigration, we have immigrants to pay for the OAPs'' pensions.  If we didn''t we''d be like Japan, facing serious economic problems in the future.  They have vertually zero immigration and an ageing population almost out numbering people capable of breeding and working.

THE truth is, more of these vermin need to sh@g for Britain.  That''s what Jeremy Kyle and the Daily Mail won''t tell you.

[Monty13 2,229]

That would be kind of an exponential problem Fraser, as if true, when that generation reached pension age we would need a much bigger younger population to sustain it and so on and so on.

The Japanese problem is an extreme as they have a hugely shrinking young population trying to support the pensions of one of the longest life expectancies in the world.

However, that problem is going to reduce as the inevitable happens and their aged population shrinks due to the reducing birth rate, however its the long game.

The UK also doesn''t have a pyramid structure, it has more of a skyscraper with a slight bulge in the middle. While we are living longer, pension age changes are looking to factor that in, not to mention that we still have a pretty healthy birth rate.

However that birth rate is only helpful if those babies end up contributing to the economy and not drawing from it.

But pensions will always be a big draw on the Govt, and rightly so in my opinion, those no longer able to work should be supported for all the years they contributed to the system.

"remember thats where the biggest chunk of benefit goes" it is the biggest chunk but not the majority of benefits, it''s just the single biggest draw.

Only a quick look at that Guardian representation makes it obvious that Pensions only equate to roughly just over a third of the combined benefits and tax credits. That is ridiculous. Pensions should account for the vast majority of our benefit system.

[Monty13 2,229]

"It clearly doesn''t take much to start people foaming at the mouth and complaining about "the poor" does it?"

Like it doesn''t take much for people to start foaming at the mouth and complaining about the rich?

1) Where are the programmes showing all the well run tax paying, economy growing and job creating businesses?

2) Where are the programmes showing the behaviour of the other end of the income scale? What like showing more people who bring in vast amounts of wealth to the country legally? People who have made successful British businesses competitive in a global market?

I know what your saying, and I''m being slightly tongue in cheek, but while I agree there is too much focussing on the bad apples in our poorer areas of society there is also far too much bashing of people with money and more importantly those who aspire to money.

I''m not rich, I wish I was though, and I''m not sure why that makes me a bad person if I''m prepared to better myself and work hard to improve my financial situation.

The problem with modern politics is in the current climate of still relative economic hardship, compared to the prosperity of the late 90''s early millenium, class war seems to be back even as the concept seems increasingly out of touch with the realities of the makeup of modern UK society.

And the more politicians try to divide society into two camps the less chance we will ever have of bringing them closer together.

[Gainer the Gopher 0]

Excellent post, Monty. Just to add, the vast majority of the wealthy worked and still work long days going weeks and months without a day off trying to get their ventures succeeding. Despite tax loopholes and dodges, they also pay a huge percentage of total income and business taxes collected.

[Mr Jenkins 0]

Most Scum have been living like this for years and its about time they were exposed.

[Reggie Strayshun 0]

This little discussion is all very interesting in a Guardian v Daily Mail kind of way, but I''m at a loss to see , other than that the family in question is based in the same town as our arch-rivals, what it has to do with Norwich City.Surely this should be in the ''non-football'' section ?

[The Messiah 0]

I know of some people locally who are on benithieves and admit to playing the system. Stories of always being on hard times but also having many trips into the fine City to buy soft furnishings and frequent many a drinking establishments for more than a skinful.

Have to admire the cheek of some people when their best skill is avoiding work to laze about on our money.

[ricardo 7,349]

[quote user="Reggie Strayshun"]This little discussion is all very interesting in a Guardian v Daily Mail kind of way, but I''m at a loss to see , other than that the family in question is based in the same town as our arch-rivals, what it has to do with Norwich City.Surely this should be in the ''non-football'' section ?[/quote]I think it was a mistake to divide this Forum into football and non football sections. Most people come on here for football discussion but when there is not much going on it is interesting to bring up other topics. You only need to see the number of threads on the non football section to see that it is very rarely used.If people have no interest in other topics they are not forced to comment but quite often a non NCFC topic stimulates conversation when there is nothing much happening and is surely better than some of the juvenile stuff that often seems to take over the board.I often look at other teams Forums and these are mostly open to all sorts of topics on one main board. Personally I would prefer that format.

[Katie Borkins 1]

This is exactly how Nazi Germany started.

[Reggie Strayshun 0]

[quote user="Bor Bor Boycott"]This is exactly how Nazi Germany started.[/quote]You just knew that someone would play the Godwin''s Law card eventually........

[Bethnal Yellow and Green 1,557]

There is no shame in wanting to be rich Morty, or to make a success of yourself. It is just that many people feel to do this they need to exploit others - or that by becoming rich they are then entitled to things others are not.

To many companies exploit their workers by paying low wages or forcing them to work long hours. The fact that a large chunk on money spent on welfare in the UK is given to supplement those who are already working says a huge amount about the low level of wages now being paid. Minimum wage needs to be dramatically increased to help spread the wealth around a little, companies like Tesco make billions in profit but don''t pay their employees a living wage.

We live in a post-political age, where the ideologies have disappeared and most politicians are glorified business men looking to aid ''business'' whenever they can. While this isn''t inherently bad and economic development is of course vital it shouldn''t be at the expense of the residents of this country.

On another point, it is interesting how people become furious when they see a story about someone fiddling benefit by £50,000, but much less reaction is made if someone avoids £500,000 worth of tax through illegal means. I doubt the story of the £340m of illegal tax avoidance in the ''icebreaker'' scheme would have even been reported on if there weren''t a few celebrities involved.

So rather than people get worked up by a tiny percentage of people who are fiddling a relatively small amount of money - it is those who steal millions for the nation we should be more focussed on.

[morty 0]

[quote user="ricardo"][quote user="Reggie Strayshun"]This little discussion is all very interesting in a Guardian v Daily Mail kind of way, but I''m at a loss to see , other than that the family in question is based in the same town as our arch-rivals, what it has to do with Norwich City.Surely this should be in the ''non-football'' section ?[/quote]I think it was a mistake to divide this Forum into football and non football sections. Most people come on here for football discussion but when there is not much going on it is interesting to bring up other topics. You only need to see the number of threads on the non football section to see that it is very rarely used.If people have no interest in other topics they are not forced to comment but quite often a non NCFC topic stimulates conversation when there is nothing much happening and is surely better than some of the juvenile stuff that often seems to take over the board.I often look at other teams Forums and these are mostly open to all sorts of topics on one main board. Personally I would prefer that format.[/quote][Y]

[ricardo 7,349]

[quote user="Reggie Strayshun"][quote user="Bor Bor Boycott"]This is exactly how Nazi Germany started.[/quote]You just knew that someone would play the Godwin''s Law card eventually........[/quote]LOLSurprised it took so long.[:D]

[Monty13 2,229]

"It is just that many people feel to do this they need to exploit others - or that by becoming rich they are then entitled to things others are not."

I''m sorry Bethnal I would disagree with this, I don''t for a minute believe "many" people feel the need to exploit others to get where they want to in life, I''m not really sure what you are trying to suggest? Other than all of our apparent happiness to exploit third world and developing nations labor force to get cheaper luxury goods, clothing and food.

I also find it a tad amusing you have used the words "by becoming rich they are then entitled to things others are not." as this would be the crux of most peoples arguments against the current benefit system, that you are not entitled to affluence and to bring children into this world. You have to work for one and be in a position to provide for the other.

"To many companies exploit their workers by paying low wages or forcing them to work long hours" - I would actually argue the biggest problem is companies not giving people enough hours and the rise in 0 hour contracts which needs to be looked at and curtailed. People are being exploited particularly by not being employed on full time contracts.

We have a national minimum wage, it''s not the company''s fault if its too low, and is it arguably too low for unskilled work? I say this only because it''s far more than pensioners are expected to live on.

6.50 x 39 hour working week would pay you 13182 a year. Definitely not great but only 2k less than I started on less than 10 years ago. Plus now you would pay no tax on the first 10k so you''re taking home at least 1k a month. If someone is unable to live on 1k a month, they are doing it wrong. Life might not be amazing but you can provide food, housing and utilities on that. You might not be able to get sky tv and a brand new phone contract but you can more than provide the basics (well outside london).

Personally i think it should be higher, people should be paid more even in unskilled jobs, the current wealth distribution is undoubtedly unfair. I also think it is unfair that anyones age is take into account, why should 16-20 year olds be paid less? But again this is a political issue and in fact most companies don''t pay even unskilled workers minimum wage. And the idea is that minimum wage is a starting point, an entry level to push on from. Very few employees never see a pay rise.

"On another point, it is interesting how people become furious when they see a story about someone fiddling benefit by £50,000, but much less reaction is made if someone avoids £500,000 worth of tax through illegal means. I doubt the story of the £340m of illegal tax avoidance in the ''icebreaker'' scheme would have even been reported on if there weren''t a few celebrities involved."

No it''s very logical, people don''t associate themselves with the uber rich, while they will certainly be upset that that they tried to shelter tax, they don''t look at them and think thats my money you were stealing (even though effectively it still is). Where as they see people getting given money, while they have to work for it, and cheating a system designed to support the needy and stealing their tax money in the process.

By human nature we are more forgiving of someone who should have done something that didn''t, as opposed to someone who deliberately goes out of their way to take something that doesn''t belong to them. Especially when we can''t do the same. We look at them and say, well if I was rich I''d want to pay as little tax as possible, whereas we look at someone cheating the benefit system and think, that''s unfair, I pay my tax and go to work and yet they live off my money and contribute nothing. It''s more personal and an entirely logical human response if not a logical economic argument.

We should be focussing on both and apparently we are, the reason the Icebreaker case was in the news was because it was an example of the HMRC finally hitting out effectively against tax avoidance, hopefully they will continue to do so.

Also the benefit system is broken and is definitely not a "relatively small amount of money". The incentive to work should always be there, and the point of benefits should be to help people to work through schemes like working tax credits and to provide for those that can''t work, not those that won''t.

[Bill 1,788]

"By human nature we are more forgiving of someone who should have done

something that didn''t, as opposed to someone who deliberately goes out

of their way to take something that doesn''t belong to them. Especially

when we can''t do the same."Human nature ? Something inherent in our biological make up ! ! !If they qualify for a particular benefit then it ''belongs to them''.we look at them and say, well if I was rich I''d want to pay as little tax

as possible, whereas we look at someone cheating the benefit system and

think, that''s unfair, I pay my tax and go to work and yet they live off

my money and contribute nothingyou clearly don''t understand the tax systemit is the employer who pays the tax, which is a tax on his profits not your wages

as to the programme then it is no more than pandering to the base instinct of the not too bright - the world and pretty much every society is riddled with corruption, TV is only concerned with what attracts it''s particular audience, not some moral stanceso perhaps we should brand benefit claimants with a letter V on the forehead as did the Elizabethans, that certainly stopped the inequalities and poverty