Englands failure in championships and why Germany succeeds

[Gainer the Gopher 0]

If you''re one of the best at your position, that''s world class. You don''t have to be head and shoulders above the rest to be world class, do you? If so, there are only ever a very small handful of world class players at any one time.

Either way. The Prem has at least as many of them as any other league.

[Gainer the Gopher 0]

Belgium and Holland won 2 world wars, too.

[Reggie Strayshun 0]

[quote user="A Gay Schoolboy"][quote user="Reggie Strayshun"]Purple answers that point in his posting above.......[/quote]Costa Rica: never got to a semi finalChile: 1 semi final, in 1962Croatia: 1 semi final, in 1998Belgium: 1 semi final, in 1986Holland: 3 finals (1974, 1978, 2010). 2 semi finals (1998, 2014).England: 2 world wars, 1 world cup, 1 semi final.

[/quote]But, as I say ,you are not taking Euro''s/Copa America into account.If you don''t like the countries I''ve mentioned I''ll toss Uruguay as another for your consideration.All I''m saying is that population of country is not vital.If that was the case, Russia, China, USA and India would win EVERYTHING !!!

[Gainer the Gopher 0]

And Indonesia, too. Everyone forgets about very highly populated Indonesia.

[Big Vince 318]

The difference in national psyche plays a big part in the huge discrepancy between the success of the German national team versus the England one.

Organisation, discipline and efficiency are the default positions in Germany. The English like to muddle their way through with applying sticking plasters to wounded limbs that require amputation. The Germans get things right from the start because they have a clear idea of their end goals. The English like to get bogged down in innumerable grey areas and also like to haggle over how many angels are dancing on the end of a pin. When the English wake up it is usually at the last minute or too late. Germany are at it from the very beginning. The English have the ability and genius but not the application of the Germans. The English talk a lot but rarely walk a lot. The Germans are super fit. The English are unfit. Take the Italy game for instance. There were at least 6 English players pulling up with cramp, but no Italians, by the 90 minute mark. The Germans survived through 7 matches and won the cup. The English were knackered before the end of the first game. The gulf between the two countries is enormous now. The English FA can do nothing about it because they allowed the Premier League to get away from them and it is now too powerful for them. Football in England only serves the interests of the top 7 or 8 clubs and their owners. In Germany the national team sits at the top of the pyramid structure. In England the national team groans under the weight of the domestic game and all that bullion from Russia and Arabia.

[Herman 9,717]

[quote user="A Gay Schoolboy"][quote user="Reggie Strayshun"]
Purple answers that point in his posting above.......
[/quote]

Costa Rica: never got to a semi final
Chile: 1 semi final, in 1962
Croatia: 1 semi final, in 1998
Belgium: 1 semi final, in 1986
Holland: 3 finals (1974, 1978, 2010). 2 semi finals (1998, 2014).

England: 2 world wars, 1 world cup, 1 semi final.


[/quote]

I don''t think the Russians, Americans, French, ANZACS, Indians etc. etc. etc. would think that we won two world wars on our own.

[nutty nigel 7,509]

[quote user="The Butler"]

 

Even the academies (ours included) are recruiting the talented kids from

anywhere they can get them.

So you have a poisoned mix of culture, attitude and huge sums of money in the

wrong hands.

 

[/quote]

 

The thing is it''s a long time since we were any good at football compared

to other countries so it''s certainly nothing to do with them pesky furriners and

their cultures in our academies. Or is it....

 

For a long time I''ve struggled to find an answer as to why so few Norwich

and Norfolk boys ever make it to the top level. Perhaps the answer is that we''re

just not very good at football from round these parts. And perhaps English

people are not very good at football either. That would explain why so many

stars of our league are not English. Not just over the PL years but throughout

my lifetime many of the best players weren''t English. From George Best to Kenny

Dalgliesh non-English players were often the best in our league. And at our club

as I think back to my early heroes of Ron Davies, Tommy Bryceland, Hugh Curran,

Ken Foggo and Jimmy Bone. The other home nations have much smaller populations

and yet were providing so many of our nation''s club''s top players. So even back

then we weren''t much use and a good percentage of the gifted players came from

the other home nations.

 

 

If we were to all check our genealogical DNAs we''d probably have some

Scots/Irish/Welsh connections but because we are a group of islands there

wouldn''t be much else for many of us. Unlike some of the more cosmopolitan

European and American countries. So if us English people have never been much

good at the game we invented then we''re not likely to get much better except we

may have got a bit more Irish/Welsh/Scottish over the years.

 

So these foreign youngsters may eventually be the answer to our prayers but

only if enough good ones stick around. Being "European" could be the catalyst

for our next World Cup win. But don''t tell Farage...

 

[;)]

 

 

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,219]

Now you''re getting closer Nutty.

Though the way we coach 5 year olds and the pathways between school, education and clubs are also key.

We love to play games, lash the ball last the little kid and focus on winning matches from a young age. You wouldn''t take a maths exam without maths classes and do it is with football. Until young schoolchildren can do everything within 1 metre square, there is no need for larger scale pay, matches or results.

We are hamstrung by the weight of real and false history, the hubris and insularity of an island nation, with a commensurate unwillingness to embrace change. In the meantime everybody else has formed closer ties, shared good practice and moved far in advance of our structures.

[Reggie Strayshun 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]. And perhaps English

people are not very good at football either. That would explain why so many

stars of our league are not English. Not just over the PL years but throughout

my lifetime many of the best players weren''t English. From George Best to Kenny

Dalgliesh non-English players were often the best in our league.

 

 

[/quote]Would be a nice neat theory, Nige, if it wasn''t for the fact that England has produced countless great players from Dixie Dean to David Beckham, by way of Tom Finney, Stanley Matthews, Stan Mortensen, Tommy Lawton, Gordon Banks, Bobby Charlton, Peter Shilton, Matt Le Tissier,  to name but ten.Hundreds of NCFC greats have been English.To say we have ''not been much use'' at football is just plain wrong.

[The Butler 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

[quote user="The Butler"]

 

Even the academies (ours included) are recruiting the talented kids from anywhere they can get them.

So you have a poisoned mix of culture, attitude and huge sums of money in the wrong hands.

 

[/quote]

 

The thing is it''s a long time since we were any good at football compared to other countries so it''s certainly nothing to do with them pesky furriners and their cultures in our academies. Or is it....

 

For a long time I''ve struggled to find an answer as to why so few Norwich and Norfolk boys ever make it to the top level. Perhaps the answer is that we''re just not very good at football from round these parts. And perhaps English people are not very good at football either. That would explain why so many stars of our league are not English. Not just over the PL years but throughout my lifetime many of the best players weren''t English. From George Best to Kenny Dalgliesh non-English players were often the best in our league. And at our club as I think back to my early heroes of Ron Davies, Tommy Bryceland, Hugh Curran, Ken Foggo and Jimmy Bone. The other home nations have much smaller populations and yet were providing so many of our nation''s club''s top players. So even back then we weren''t much use and a good percentage of the gifted players came from the other home nations.

 

 

If we were to all check our genealogical DNAs we''d probably have some Scots/Irish/Welsh connections but because we are a group of islands there wouldn''t be much else for many of us. Unlike some of the more cosmopolitan European and American countries. So if us English people have never been much good at the game we invented then we''re not likely to get much better except we may have got a bit more Irish/Welsh/Scottish over the years.

 

So these foreign youngsters may eventually be the answer to our prayers but only if enough good ones stick around. Being "European" could be the catalyst for our next World Cup win. But don''t tell Farage...

 

[;)]

 

 

[/quote]

Of all the posts made on this thread you have to extract 2 lines of mine take them out of context make something from them that wasn''t meant and....

I can only say how flattered I am[;)]

[nutty nigel 7,509]

I didn''t realise you were that old Reg. George Best and Tommy Bryceland are my limit. I''ve heard of the older ones but never saw them play.

Mr Ham mentioned false history and I think you''re a bit of a false historian. Throughout my life we''ve never been very good at football. We are good at other things but other nations are better footballers. Maybe as the world gets smaller our nation will become more cosmopolitan and we''ll get a bit better. Or we could just pretend we''re as good as the rest even though we don''t have the medals to back it up.

I didn''t come here for a fight Butler, if you meant those remarks in a different way perhaps you''d tell us. I thought they were interesting which is why I quoted them.

[Reggie Strayshun 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]I didn''t realise you were that old Reg. George Best and Tommy Bryceland are my limit. I''ve heard of the older ones but never saw them play.

Mr Ham mentioned false history and I think you''re a bit of a false historian. Throughout my life we''ve never been very good at football. We are good at other things but other nations are better footballers. Maybe as the world gets smaller our nation will become more cosmopolitan and we''ll get a bit better. Or we could just pretend we''re as good as the rest even though we don''t have the medals to back it up.

I didn''t come here for a fight Butler, if you meant those remarks in a different way perhaps you''d tell us. I thought they were interesting which is why I quoted them.[/quote]You do not ned to be either old, nor a false historian (whatever that is) to know England has produced lots of superb players over the years, Nige. Various wake up calls (starting with the mauling by Hungary in 1954) were not heeded by the authorities team-wise.Medals is a bit of a red herring, as they were not so vital back then. Many countries did not even enter the World Cup for years.You came into the debate late, but I guess what it''s been about is looking at how we can change the status quo, particularly now medals ARE a sought after currency.Not sure that hoping our multi -cultural society will kick in and something will turn up is much of a realistic option, I have to say !

[Indy_Bones 441]

[quote user="Reggie Strayshun"]Ozil, Fabregas, Yaya Toure, Ageruo, Kompany, Joe Hart, Alexis Sanchez, Diego Costa, David Silva, Juan Mata, Robin van Persie, David de Gea, Courtais, Matic, etc - just off the top of my head.Would agree with those I''ve highlighted, BYG, but would question the rest . I''m not saying that they are not excellent players...but world class.....Mata ??!![/quote]Seriously?Mata was superb in his first two seasons at Chelsea - arguably their best player, and he looked almost unstoppable in at least 30-40% of games. It was only when Jose came back and froze him out that the problems started, which combined with Man Utd''s dismal form last season to take some degree of gloss off the player. Under LVG I expect to see the old Mata back and he''ll easily be scoring double figures again along with providing some excellent supply for other players to feed off.Last season Aguero played in just 23 games - and scored 17 times, that''s a ratio of a goal every 1.35 games ffs! There''s virtually no-one in the world that can match that ratio, in fact I can only think of Suarez who''s bettered it this season in the PL.Similarly, you''d be hard pressed to find another 2 midfielders who consistently provides the frequency and quality of supply that Silva and Fabregas do, as well as offering a genuine goal threat in the process.I''d argue that if you can''t see this, then you''ve got some bizarre eyesight that may need immediate attention!

[Reggie Strayshun 0]

[quote user="Indy_Bones"][quote user="Reggie Strayshun"]Ozil, Fabregas, Yaya Toure, Ageruo, Kompany, Joe Hart, Alexis Sanchez, Diego Costa, David Silva, Juan Mata, Robin van Persie, David de Gea, Courtais, Matic, etc - just off the top of my head.Would agree with those I''ve highlighted, BYG, but would question the rest . I''m not saying that they are not excellent players...but world class.....Mata ??!![/quote]Seriously?Mata was superb in his first two seasons at Chelsea - arguably their best player, and he looked almost unstoppable in at least 30-40% of games. It was only when Jose came back and froze him out that the problems started, which combined with Man Utd''s dismal form last season to take some degree of gloss off the player. Under LVG I expect to see the old Mata back and he''ll easily be scoring double figures again along with providing some excellent supply for other players to feed off.Last season Aguero played in just 23 games - and scored 17 times, that''s a ratio of a goal every 1.35 games ffs! There''s virtually no-one in the world that can match that ratio, in fact I can only think of Suarez who''s bettered it this season in the PL.Similarly, you''d be hard pressed to find another 2 midfielders who consistently provides the frequency and quality of supply that Silva and Fabregas do, as well as offering a genuine goal threat in the process.I''d argue that if you can''t see this, then you''ve got some bizarre eyesight that may need immediate attention![/quote]Sorry, Indy. meant to highlight Aguero, but must have pressed the wrong button. I agree he''s class. Not first choice for the Argies, mind, though in fairness that may be due to his injuries.Still not convinced re Mata. OK he was pretty good at first for Chelsea. Fringe player since. But he did not figure in Spain''s World Cup plans. That does not make him world class in my eyes (which I had tested and found fine only last month, btw !!)

[Indy_Bones 441]

[quote user="Reggie Strayshun"]Still not convinced re Mata. OK he was pretty good at first for Chelsea. Fringe player since. But he did not figure in Spain''s World Cup plans. That does not make him world class in my eyes (which I had tested and found fine only last month, btw !!)[/quote]Fringe player???He played pretty much every game when fit until Jose came in, and that doesn''t make him a fringe player, it just means that Jose had his usual agenda and Mata was on the wrong end of it!As for not figuring in Spain''s plans, I can''t say I''m overly surprised. He''d had a tough domestic season with first being frozen out and then struggling to fit into how Moyes wanted him to play for Man Utd (as well as not being fully match fit for the first month) so he''d be going into the WC without good form.Let''s also not forget that Spain utterly collapsed this WC, with players like Costa looking more ineffective than RVW, and I begin to wonder how he could have been any worse than some of the guys who did play...Still, it''s horses for courses, but if he has the sort of season I expect this year, let''s hope you''ll be honest enough to admit it [;)]

[BigFish 1,986]

Parma Ham''s gone mouldy

Now you''re getting closer Nutty.

Though the way we coach 5 year olds and the pathways between school, education and clubs are also key.

We love to play games, lash the ball last the little kid and focus on winning matches from a young age. You wouldn''t take a maths exam without maths classes and do it is with football. Until young schoolchildren can do everything within 1 metre square, there is no need for larger scale pay, matches or results.

We are hamstrung by the weight of real and false history, the hubris and insularity of an island nation, with a commensurate unwillingness to embrace change. In the meantime everybody else has formed closer ties, shared good practice and moved far in advance of our structures......

Your last paragraph is bang on the money but I think your earlier one misses a point.

Our kids just don''t love the game enough, so they don''t play (and practice) enough either. Football for them in this country is all about FIFA on the XBox, or turning up at a Prem ground and stuffing their face with hotdogs and coke. Even those in Academies are more into the WAGS, cars & Hello lifestyle than the game. Compare this their continental peers who often disappear to foreign countries at young ages to actually play.

It may not be all of them.....but enough

[Gainer the Gopher 0]

Maybe you 2 can come to an agreement on what makes one world class. That way, it would put much of the rest of your debate in clearer perspective. You might be on the same page or close to it.

It''s interesting reading either way. Nobody''s a genital.

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

[quote user="Ice Cold Pineapple Soda"]Maybe you 2 can come to an agreement on what makes one world class. That way, it would put much of the rest of your debate in clearer perspective. You might be on the same page or close to it.

It''s interesting reading either way. Nobody''s a genital.[/quote]A definition that I came across decades ago seems to work well. If, depending on nationality, a player would be seriously considered at the time for an all-Europe eleven or a Rest of the World eleven they are world-class. So you can have several world-class players in one position (Neuer, Buffon Casillas a while ago) or none. And a player - such as Rooney - can fall from being world-class. And possibly get back there. So no-one in the current England team woud qualify, while in the German squad Neuer, Lahm, Kroos and Muller would, and Khedira might well.

[nutty nigel 7,509]

[quote user="Reggie Strayshun"][quote user="nutty nigel"]I didn''t realise you were that old Reg. George Best and Tommy Bryceland are my limit. I''ve heard of the older ones but never saw them play.

Mr Ham mentioned false history and I think you''re a bit of a false historian. Throughout my life we''ve never been very good at football. We are good at other things but other nations are better footballers. Maybe as the world gets smaller our nation will become more cosmopolitan and we''ll get a bit better. Or we could just pretend we''re as good as the rest even though we don''t have the medals to back it up.

I didn''t come here for a fight Butler, if you meant those remarks in a different way perhaps you''d tell us. I thought they were interesting which is why I quoted them.[/quote]You do not ned to be either old, nor a false historian (whatever that is) to know England has produced lots of superb players over the years, Nige. Various wake up calls (starting with the mauling by Hungary in 1954) were not heeded by the authorities team-wise.Medals is a bit of a red herring, as they were not so vital back then. Many countries did not even enter the World Cup for years.You came into the debate late, but I guess what it''s been about is looking at how we can change the status quo, particularly now medals ARE a sought after currency.Not sure that hoping our multi -cultural society will kick in and something will turn up is much of a realistic option, I have to say ![/quote]

 

Well all I can say then is that by your standards Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland also had nearly as many superb players over the years as any keen observer of the Home Internationals will tell you. For every superb English player you drag up I''ll give you an equally superb player from the other home nations. It beggars belief that so many of the worlds best players came from these islands and yet there''s so few now.