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lake district canary

Today's lecture.....

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Undercurrents. 

The undercurrents and levels of negativity that simmer behind the scenes at a football club, whether its amongst fans, players, board or whoever, are what governs whether a club is going to do well or not.   We hear a lot of talk about our club doing well when we pull together - in fact imo its the only way our club will ever achieve what it wants to achieve.     We pulled together fantastically in League 1 as a club - players/management/fans alike - and the momentum from there carried us forward - and kept on going.

So how do we keep the club pulling together? By sticking with the new set up for as long as it takes to get things working.  The last set up failed for whatever reason (and negativity behind the scenes was one factor) so imo we need to keep positive, even if things are rocky from time to time. We have no divine right to be top of the league - we have to earn it - and that may take time.  

Things look very positive at the moment and we will arrive at the beginning of the season with great hope.  But it will not all be plain sailing, so if things get a little difficult from time to time, imo we need to keep the positivity going - as a club - and that will help everyone keep things on an upward curve.  Go into a post Lambert, or a  Hughtonesque strop - and we will end up with nothing at the end of next season.  

Keep positive and we will win the league.  

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All this from the one that said Hughton was the right man! The reason we all pulled together in the old third division was because in Lambert we had a manager who went for it got the players and fans behind each other.

The reason for the negativity was because we were negative we were slow in build up, little old ladies sitting in the stand could see what Hughton couldn''t.

Negativity or positivity starts with what we see on the pitch those that go week in and week out - not sit at home watching streams - braving the elements to watch a team that can''t put three passes together are entitled to complain.

Adams will succeed or fail by what happens on the pitch not by what happens on the terraces and the board will be held accountable by what happens on the pitch and what happens on the pitch is all that counts.

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I agree LDC that we have a better chance of succeeding if every aspect of the club are pulling together.

The point you seem to miss however is that it is the art of good management to foster this. It involves motivating the players, good public relations with the fans, playing attractive and winning football, etc. When all these things are in place confidence builds and the rest follows and builds it''s own momentum.

The converse is also true and poor management will produce a gradual downward spiral (al a Roeder). You really can''t go on suggesting it''s down to the fans to do this. We have a part to play, certainly giving support to the new regime is essential, but maintaining and building the mood is down to the club management.

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I think the suggestion isn''t that it''s all down to the fans, rather that we have a part to play. Lambert wasn''t the reason for us all pulling together in League 1, it was surely our love for Norwich City wasn''t it? I agree with LDC on the crucial point, we should support the team (cheer them on, on a matchday, encourage rather than boo from the stands etc). However, all fans have a right to make themselves heard when they do not like what is going on at their club and perhaps the board need to look at giving us an outlet for that - proper fan representation on the board or monthly meetings fan/board interaction rather than just the AGM. Greater transparency and communication is key to everyone ''pulling together''. 

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Does a club perform well because fans are ''pulling together'' or do fans pull together because the club are doing well?

 

My memories of the League One campagin don''t strongly feature fans pulling together, certainly not before Norwich were consistently winning and looking likely for promotion. In fact, I would say that the first few months of that period were witness to some of the most bitter infighting between fans since Chase was knocking around.

 

Only one things makes fans rally round and support the team, good results. If Adams gets a few wins and some good performaces in his first 5 or 6 games then we shall see greater support for him - these things cannot be forced.

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Thanks Hairy and Flecky.  Agree with both of you - the club could help more with the public relation side of things - it has to be meaningful though, otherwise fans could think they are receiving just lip service.  I like the idea of proper fan representation on the board.  I don''t understand why this isn''t in every club''s constitution - the fans are the most important thing about the club.  

Unhappy fans, for whatever reason is never going to help a struggling situation.  The fact that some fans were unhappy from the start of Hughton''s reign was a warning sign that things weren''t going to go well. At the time it seemed like it might be a "He''s not Lambert" thing, but from that things just got worse. The players knew fans weren''t happy with Hughton - and that must have made things harder for them.   Fan representation on the board - and that fan representation would have to be from a position of power within the fan base - ie that rep (or reps) voted in by other fans - could be a real help in those difficult situations.  

We have a big management team - how a bout a panel of fans, voted by other fans as an official part of the structure and running of the club.   I don''t know how far other fan organisations that exist/existed in the past were linked to the club, but it seems to me an official  position  could be created within the club hierachy for fans representation - and done properly, that would avoid some of the problems of interaction between the club and its fans.  It sometimes feels as if it is an "us and them"  situation - and it really doesn''t need to be like that. 

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Undercurrents and criticisms are indicators.

Basically, if something seems wrong it probably is.

Be a blindfolded happy clappy if you choose but the reason NCFC was relegated was because the management ignored and decided not to address the ''undercurrents.''

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The trouble with a fans representative is that you would fin fit hard to avoid a ''yes man'' like Nutty or a fall in line type like Morty.

Worst of all we could get a wide eyed buffoon like LDC.

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[quote user="RUDOLPH HUCKER"]The trouble with a fans representative is that you would fin fit hard to avoid a ''yes man'' like Nutty or a fall in line type like Morty.

Worst of all we could get a wide eyed buffoon like LDC.[/quote]

Like I said - it would have to be meaningful - maybe two or three reps being voted on to a panel of reps to avoid the pitfalls of the above. Votes could be taken by email, with the voters being the season ticket holders, who are the majority of fans who go regularly to matches and deserve the most say.   That way we could avoid the above types mentioned above - and the Rudolfocker types, who are as cynical as the day is long.

 

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[quote user="lake district canary"]I like the idea of proper fan representation on the board.[/quote]It''s a lovely idea in theory but in practice how could it work? The first problem would be selection. The Supporters Trust would obviously be the first in the queue to offer their services as their aim has always been to have a supporter on the board but in reality, they only represent a tiny minority of fans. If it was offered to season ticket holders then every casual fan would feel hard done by and that they didn''t have a voice. Open the vote to everyone by having an online poll and it would be open to abuse just as the votes for Carlo Nash in the POTS fiasco was. Finally, the board could select a fan of their choice but he would surely be accused of being a yes man.Assuming a fan is recruited to the board, the next question would be which fans would he represent? Discussing ticket prices or free-standing is one thing, but in turbulent times with the fans split 50/50 ie the Hughton/Worthy/Chase in/out debates, it would be demanded he state clearly which side he supported thereby alienating half of the fanbase, an impossible position.Finally, if the person the fans selected was someone the board found hard to work with, it could prove to be very disruptive and defeating the object of the exercise.As it is, the current board is made up of fans so why do we need another one?

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Lappin has answered the fan representative question perfectly imo.

As to a positive feeling, I agree with others that it comes from what we see and how the players and management team perform more than vice versa. I doubt there will be many moaning in the stands at the start of the first game of the season, there might after a few games if the footballs dreadful and results aren''t going to plan.

If Adams team plays good football are getting results, even if all results don''t go entirely according to plan, he will bring people round.

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[quote user="lappinitup"][quote user="lake district canary"]I like the idea of proper fan representation on the board.[/quote]It''s a lovely idea in theory but in practice how could it work? The first problem would be selection. The Supporters Trust would obviously be the first in the queue to offer their services as their aim has always been to have a supporter on the board but in reality, they only represent a tiny minority of fans. If it was offered to season ticket holders then every casual fan would feel hard done by and that they didn''t have a voice. Open the vote to everyone by having an online poll and it would be open to abuse just as the votes for Carlo Nash in the POTS fiasco was. Finally, the board could select a fan of their choice but he would surely be accused of being a yes man.Assuming a fan is recruited to the board, the next question would be which fans would he represent? Discussing ticket prices or free-standing is one thing, but in turbulent times with the fans split 50/50 ie the Hughton/Worthy/Chase in/out debates, it would be demanded he state clearly which side he supported thereby alienating half of the fanbase, an impossible position.Finally, if the person the fans selected was someone the board found hard to work with, it could prove to be very disruptive and defeating the object of the exercise.As it is, the current board is made up of fans so why do we need another one?

[/quote]I am far from sold on  the idea of a fan-director, but I don''t think the selection process is an insuperable problem. Assuming there were several candidates, a panel of the great and the good could do interviews, winnow out the non-starters and pick a short-list. The candidatses left standing would sell themselves as best they could and then it would be one person, one vote from, off the top of my head, the likes of:All season ticket holders.All club employees.All associate directors.All members of the Norwich City Supporters'' Trust.All members of Capital Canaries and other fan groups.Some people would qualify more than once but would be limited to one vote. The lucky winner would serve for long enough - at least three years - to gain and pass on their knowledge.As to who they would represent, they would represent and articulate the views of all those groups who were part of the voting process. But they would vote in the boardroom for the good of the club as they saw it.

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Well, the idea behind fan representation would be someone to sit on the board and relay what went on in the last board meeting to other fans, so we know what is going on at that level. This is done through public meetings which all fans are invited to attend. The same man brings fans issues/criticisms raised in said meetings to the attention of the board. It''s more of a transparency thing as we were all very disappointed by the deafening silence around Carrow Road, certainly in the latter half of last season and any fan who wants to be represented can be, simply by turning up to the public meetings.

 

What worries me is that we are talking about Adams ''winning the fans round''. Surely we should be behind him from the off and us fans should be his to lose, not the other way round?  

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more provocative sh ite from the trollin this one he states that "The last set up failed for whatever reason " for whatever reason ... unknown we must presumeyet follows with .........(and negativity behind the scenes was one factor)still the same snide attacks upon City fansif the numpties on here can''t see what is behind all these snide and underhand attcaks then I would suggest they stay well clear of any emails from Nigeria offering them moneyas to the fan on the board idea that is as nonsensical as is LDC''s claim to live in the Lake Districtany fan with a vote would simply be out voted, they would be required to leave for much of the discussion as muchwould be financially sensitive/confidentialas to consultation the club already receives umpteen letters and emails, simply presenting those ideas in another medium is not going to make one happ''ath of differencethe board will act as they see fit - often on information that cannot be disclosed

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[quote user="City1st"]more provocative sh ite from the trollin this one he states that "The last set up failed for whatever reason " for whatever reason ... unknown we must presumeyet follows with .........(and negativity behind the scenes was one factor)still the same snide attacks upon City fansif the numpties on here can''t see what is behind all these snide and underhand attcaks then I would suggest they stay well clear of any emails from Nigeria offering them moneyas to the fan on the board idea that is as nonsensical as is LDC''s claim to live in the Lake Districtany fan with a vote would simply be out voted, they would be required to leave for much of the discussion as muchwould be financially sensitive/confidentialas to consultation the club already receives umpteen letters and emails, simply presenting those ideas in another medium is not going to make one happ''ath of differencethe board will act as they see fit - often on information that cannot be disclosed

[/quote]Not true. Any fan having a vote in the boardroom would have to be a director, and so would be as much bound by confidentiality as the other directors.

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The fans I''ve spoke to on the whole are very positive at the moment. With Adams, the team and especially Grabban. Your view must be distorted by all the obvious scummers invading this board at the moment or our own versions of Ipswich crazy who probably couldn''t tell you what shape a football is.

I''ve only started supporting since the Worthington days but I''ve always know fans to be optimistic and positive following a new managerial appointment. Hughton was regularly applauded when he came out for the friendlies and got a rapturous reception when he walked across Craven Cottage in his first game, even after just a few results I recall plenty of ''There''s only one Chris Hughton''s He had the fans fervently behind him from the start because we desperately wanted to believe we''d be better without Lambert.

You seem to believe we''ve had it in for him from the start due to us all having a chasm of self destructive negativity simmering below the surface, or because he just wasn''t Lambert but that just isn''t true!

He lost the fans with average-poor results by playing the worst football I''ve ever seen any team play, stop trying to convince us it was anything else!

Fans negativity didn''t send us down, it was completely the wrong manager for us, out of his depth strangling the life out of an admittedly mentally fragile squad.

Basically it wasn''t a spoilt strop, it was justified calling for the removal of a man who was only sending us one way that 99% of the fans could see. I don''t get what you mean about an undercurrent of negativity.

If Adams plays at least a semi decent form of football and at least keeps us within touching distance of the play offs fans will stick with him, if he were to play dire soul destroying ineffective Hughtonball and we slip into mid table fans will understandably get negative (as fans of all teams would) and would turn on him

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"Not true. Any fan having a vote in the

boardroom would have to be a director, and so would be as much bound by

confidentiality as the other directors".

Which

is exactly where it falls down as those appointed would have to be

apppointed by the board - and the board will not offer a place on the

board to an ''unkown'' in both financial competence and regards to whether

they are a ''fit and proper'' person to be on the board.It is a total non starter.

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[quote user="Darth Catbeard The Old"]The fans I''ve spoke to on the whole are very positive at the moment. With Adams, the team and especially Grabban. Your view must be distorted by all the obvious scummers invading this board at the moment or our own versions of Ipswich crazy who probably couldn''t tell you what shape a football is.

I''ve only started supporting since the Worthington days but I''ve always know fans to be optimistic and positive following a new managerial appointment. Hughton was regularly applauded when he came out for the friendlies and got a rapturous reception when he walked across Craven Cottage in his first game, even after just a few results I recall plenty of ''There''s only one Chris Hughton''s He had the fans fervently behind him from the start because we desperately wanted to believe we''d be better without Lambert.

You seem to believe we''ve had it in for him from the start due to us all having a chasm of self destructive negativity simmering below the surface, or because he just wasn''t Lambert but that just isn''t true!

He lost the fans with average-poor results by playing the worst football I''ve ever seen any team play, stop trying to convince us it was anything else!

Fans negativity didn''t send us down, it was completely the wrong manager for us, out of his depth strangling the life out of an admittedly mentally fragile squad.

Basically it wasn''t a spoilt strop, it was justified calling for the removal of a man who was only sending us one way that 99% of the fans could see. I don''t get what you mean about an undercurrent of negativity.

If Adams plays at least a semi decent form of football and at least keeps us within touching distance of the play offs fans will stick with him, if he were to play dire soul destroying ineffective Hughtonball and we slip into mid table fans will understandably get negative (as fans of all teams would) and would turn on him[/quote]

That we are positive to start with is true - and I hope Adams gets off to a flyer next season - but without going into the Hughton saga too much, which has been done to death - we know it can soon go sour.    Undercurrents of negativity are divisive and can unsettle players - they don''t live in a bubble of their own - they know what fans are saying.   Hughton''s reign - was - on here admittedly - complained about right from the Ajax game - so the seeds were there quite early on - and those seeds of doubt got louder and louder.  

I think the negativity did get to the players - lets face it the whole club was on a downer last season - and by that I mean the fans too.  Negativity in any form is poisonous to a football club - fans need to be aware of it - not contribute to it. 

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[quote user="City1st"]"Not true. Any fan having a vote in the

boardroom would have to be a director, and so would be as much bound by

confidentiality as the other directors".Which

is exactly where it falls down as those appointed would have to be

apppointed by the board - and the board will not offer a place on the

board to an ''unkown'' in both financial competence and regards to whether

they are a ''fit and proper'' person to be on the board.It is a total non starter.
[/quote]

The simple thing to do is have the fan rep(s) affiliated to the board with restrictions so they are not privy to anything full board members regard as sensitive. The agendas of the board meetings could be set out to involve the fans representative(s) and discussions that interest them, then once that business has been addressed, the fans reps could be asked to leave.  Not difficult. 

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Fair enough, perhaps the board member idea would not work. But I don''t see a problem with the idea of regular monthly ''fan forum'' type events with board members. Or a fan representative who, despite not being a board member, was allotted time durig the board meetings to raise questions and concerns to the board.

 

Basically, I think the board should communicate better with the fans, regardless of whether things are good or bad. If a fan representative on the board isn''t a viable option then fine, but there are other ways to achieve it.

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poor old troll - so similar to wiz in so many waysalways so desperate to get attention that he forgets what he said previouslyhere we have - "and I hope Adams gets off to a flyer next season"where a day or two before he stated "After all, no one would want us to be top in September "

as to this old bo llox it merely reaffirms that LDC does not attend games or speak to other City supporters" lets face it the whole club was on a downer last season - and by that I mean the fans too"most we fairly upbeat given the absolutely dire football being played - and stuck with the team long after most other fans would have been open demonstrating hostilityand so the drip, drip drip of snide and underhand attacks on City supporters continues - we caused the team to under perform and we will cause further problems by a supposed over expectation ..... blah blah blahmaybe some of the numpties on here might like to ask themselves what lies behind this remorseless and constant attack upon City supporters

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[quote user="City1st"]poor old troll - so similar to wiz in so many waysalways so desperate to get attention that he forgets what he said previouslyhere we have -"and I hope Adams gets off to a flyer next season"where a day or two before he stated"After all, no one would want us to be top in September "as to this old bo llox it merely reaffirms that LDC does not attend games or speak to other City supporters" lets face it the whole club was on a downer last season - and by that I mean the fans too"most we fairly upbeat given the absolutely dire football being played - and stuck with the team long after most other fans would have been open demonstrating hostilityand so the drip, drip drip of snide and underhand attacks on City supporters continues - we caused the team to under perform and we will cause further problems by a supposed over expectation ..... blah blah blahmaybe some of the numpties on here might like to ask themselves what lies behind this remorseless and constant attack upon City supporters[/quote]

Thankfully there are plenty of people who are prepared to talk about our club sensibly without the kind of cr*p we have to put up with from you most of the time. 

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[quote user="City1st"]"Not true. Any fan having a vote in the

boardroom would have to be a director, and so would be as much bound by

confidentiality as the other directors".

Which

is exactly where it falls down as those appointed would have to be

apppointed by the board - and the board will not offer a place on the

board to an ''unkown'' in both financial competence and regards to whether

they are a ''fit and proper'' person to be on the board.It is a total non starter.

[/quote]As I made clear I am not at all sold on the idea, but Swansea seem happy to have had a supporter-director chosen for them, and for that person to be sufficiently competent, trustworthy and fit and proper. The same applies to many highly successful clubs on the continent. I don''t buy the idea that it would be impossible for NCFC fans to find and vote into office a supporter-director the existing board would accept as suitably qualified.

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[quote user="Fleckys Flip-Flop"]Fair enough, perhaps the board member idea would not work. But I don''t see a problem with the idea of regular monthly ''fan forum'' type events with board members.[/quote]With average gates of almost 27,000 and probably treble that with occasional fans and fans around the world, we probably have around 100,000 fans altogether. What would a forum with about 200 people in attendance achieve other than what the local press and the clubs own PR machine already tell us?

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[quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="City1st"]poor old troll - so similar to wiz in so many waysalways so desperate to get attention that he forgets what he said previouslyhere we have -"and I hope Adams gets off to a flyer next season"where a day or two before he stated"After all, no one would want us to be top in September "as to this old bo llox it merely reaffirms that LDC does not attend games or speak to other City supporters" lets face it the whole club was on a downer last season - and by that I mean the fans too"most we fairly upbeat given the absolutely dire football being played - and stuck with the team long after most other fans would have been open demonstrating hostilityand so the drip, drip drip of snide and underhand attacks on City supporters continues - we caused the team to under perform and we will cause further problems by a supposed over expectation ..... blah blah blahmaybe some of the numpties on here might like to ask themselves what lies behind this remorseless and constant attack upon City supporters[/quote]Thankfully there are plenty of people who are prepared to talk about our club sensibly without the kind of cr*p we have to put up with from you most of the time.  [/quote]

the absolute irony !

ps some may notice that there are far, far more who have cottoned on to what lies beneath your constant attacks on City supporters

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[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="City1st"]"Not true. Any fan having a vote in the

boardroom would have to be a director, and so would be as much bound by

confidentiality as the other directors".

Which

is exactly where it falls down as those appointed would have to be

apppointed by the board - and the board will not offer a place on the

board to an ''unkown'' in both financial competence and regards to whether

they are a ''fit and proper'' person to be on the board.It is a total non starter.

[/quote]As I made clear I am not at all sold on the idea, but Swansea seem happy to have had a supporter-director chosen for them, and for that person to be sufficiently competent, trustworthy and fit and proper. The same applies to many highly successful clubs on the continent. I don''t buy the idea that it would be impossible for NCFC fans to find and vote into office a supporter-director the existing board would accept as suitably qualified.[/quote]The Swansea situation is a bit different because in one sense the club owes it''s existence to the supporters, and more so the supporters trust. The progress onto the board was not so dramatic as it would be at City.Even then it smacks of ''tokenism'' and in reality little is achieved bar allowing fans to imagine that they have a reasonable say in things. Most directors at City work and live in the local community so they will hear and get told ''plenty''.

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[quote user="City1st"][quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="City1st"]poor old troll - so similar to wiz in so many waysalways so desperate to get attention that he forgets what he said previouslyhere we have -"and I hope Adams gets off to a flyer next season"where a day or two before he stated"After all, no one would want us to be top in September "as to this old bo llox it merely reaffirms that LDC does not attend games or speak to other City supporters" lets face it the whole club was on a downer last season - and by that I mean the fans too"most we fairly upbeat given the absolutely dire football being played - and stuck with the team long after most other fans would have been open demonstrating hostilityand so the drip, drip drip of snide and underhand attacks on City supporters continues - we caused the team to under perform and we will cause further problems by a supposed over expectation ..... blah blah blahmaybe some of the numpties on here might like to ask themselves what lies behind this remorseless and constant attack upon City supporters[/quote]Thankfully there are plenty of people who are prepared to talk about our club sensibly without the kind of cr*p we have to put up with from you most of the time.  [/quote]the absolute irony !ps some may notice that there are far, far more who have cottoned on to what lies beneath your constant attacks on City supporters[/quote]If anyone reads my posts at face value - whether they are rubbish or not - they will see I am only interested in the good of the club.  Knobheads, ego-trippers and people only interested in themselves probably wouldn''t see that - probably because they can only see the world from their own narrow viewpoint.  

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come, come LDCyou are a troll, you know it, and you know that I know it(you have also admitted as such on here)if there are still those too daft to see what you are up then that only demonstrates the stupidity of some folk.... remember how some still clung on to the delusion that wiz was some long time City fan ... who was also (supposedly) deaf - bit by bit that mask slowly slipped, as it is doing with younot sure what you get out of it, but each to their own I suppose ... much as the phantom letter writer of old Holt town I supposestill, better than sniffing bycycle seats I suppose

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