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Parma Ham's gone mouldy

Why we shouldn't keep our best players

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An interesting read two years on and many of the central themes ring true today. However, I think the main problem with this is - if we had sold our best players, what faith would you have had in this club to recruit players of adequate quality to replace them?

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I think one only need look at Southampton, who have consistently sold their best players for a profit, then replaced them well to see that the original point Parma made in fact holds a lot of weight.

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As I''ve said before, we''ve ended up with a squad not good enough for the Premiership & the wrong sort for the Championship.

We''re in trouble.

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I agree, but ultimately Southampton have a fantastic scouting and recruitment system which can be entrusted to find the next crop of players. I don''t have any faith in Norwich''s scouting team to do likewise sadly. That''s why an overhaul of the squad (whilst advisable) would also have been fraught with great risk.

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It''s hard to argue against your point about our recruitment strategy Jacko. For a club like us getting it right is crucial, such a shame.

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PurpleCanary

3)  I think RvW is an exception in that we have lost most of his resale value, but not for the usual - Finidi George - reason of a marquee signing coming towards the end of his career. ...

Cant see us getting much resale value out of Naismith, Jarvis (both at the end of the careers) and Andreau (why did we sign him?).

As for Adams signings....I cant see us getting much resale value out of Lafferty (why did we sign him?) and we got zilch for VOO.

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The reason why we might not keep our best players is look how they ae treated

Pritchard hardly gets a game

maddison young yes but sent on loan MOM performances elsewhere

Olive might be dropped as now jerome is fit

canos bet he is glad he signed for us instead of a team where he plays 30 + games

Murphy been left dangling about a contract

Klose dropped for bassong

no player has improved under this coaching team

would be no surprise if any of the above would want a move

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How many of our so called best players, would other clubs want to buy?

BTW. does anybody know if Declan Rudd is coming back to NCFC (ie he has been promised a new contract) ?

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Donkey i imagine that a few of our players if playing to their ability would be wanted its just they are playing well within themselves as the Manager does not know how to get the best out of them

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[quote user="Parma Ham s gone mouldy"] The jarringly obvious dissonance to this theory is the upsetting story of the wolf. We bet the farm on him, more strategically than monetarily in context, and he is a reminder of what can happen if you buy players for the top table that don''t have a higher resale value and which leave you unable to sell your bigger name players. This is far worse than getting £7m for Hooper or Fer, but it is the real world alternative.[/quote]

 

I think this is simplistic.  RVW was just a bad buy - end of story.  With hindsight it would be easy to avoid making bad buys.  But then with hindsight I could have made a fortune in the stock market.  From the publicity at the time, I think people at the club believed we''d made a massive coup by signing RVW when we did, taking advantage of Porto''s financial weakness and by being willing to commit to the purchase well in advance.  I think they expected him to do extremely well for us and therefore have a higher resale value.  But his time at City was a nightmare and as a result his resale value ended up crashing.  If they''d foreseen how he''d work out, they''d never have bought him in the first place.

 

When you are relegated you need to take a cold hard look at your players and decide whether they''re what you need to get back up to the Prem.  The Championship is a very different league and will your better players be suitable for it (e.g. creative players get less protection from referees) - and have they the motivation for that evening game in the rain at Burton or Rotherham ?  Leroy Fer was a classic example of a player who used to play well when the team played well, but would go missing when we were playing poorly, so probably he''d have been a nightmare in the Champs and selling him was outstanding business.  Snoddy was a player who could have contributed in the Champs but at the money we were offered it was sensible to sell him.  Ditto Grabban last year, especially given how unsettled he''d been. 

 

I would therefore question the decision not to cash in on any of our saleable players this summer.  With Naismith, he hasn''t really worked out (yet?), so it would probably have been best to cash in, if we could have got back the money we paid or close to it (which may not have been possible of course).  Brady has come & gone a bit in his form and I wonder if he was unsettled after playing in a successful international team in the summer and then to come back to the Championship.  With Klose we all expected he''d look top class in the Championship and give us a really solid defence, that''s obviously not worked out and it''s anyone''s guess why at the moment.  With some of the senior pro''s, I can''t help wondering if some of them find it difficult to accept AN''s judgement given him being not much older and relatively inexperienced as a manager ?

 

These are difficult judgement calls which only become easy with hindsight (and not always then). I fear the decision made in the summer was to try to keep everyone regardless, which was a mistake if so.  But most of our players are seriously under-performing now, so you can''t draw too many conclusions about the decisions to sell, or not, based on how they''re now playing.

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ICF, I agree with much of that and it is very much the theme of what was written 2 years ago.

The RVW extract doesn''t reflect what was written in the piece and is somewhat out of context. It is a separate point that highlights that Norwich don''t have the finances to make bad mistakes. As with the Borussia Dortmund thread, this is a structural weakness and a massive disadvantage compared to many competing clubs at this level and above.

It is not a childish hindsight point, it is a clear and present danger to all our major signings and highlights our difficult position.of having to regularly buy better and then deal with rapid downsizing in a short time frame. All without sugar daddy finances to amortise the pain.

The essence of theory remains valid though. Change for change''s sake upon relegation.

Not only if this means selling your ''best'' players, but in actual fact somewhat ruthlessly setting out to do exactly that.

This kills the self-entitled or disappointed or arrogant or stale or money-centric or carrier-stalled or strolling mindset before if infects the prosaic grind necessary for the Championship.

Solving problems as a manager is clever. Not having them in the first place is even cleverer.

Parma

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Oh....and of course the main ok this that we didn''t learn as a club did we?

Maybe the revolving-door manager hadn''t learned the lesson himself, but surely the Sporrting Director, Director of Football, Football Board did?.............

..........''letting the manager manage''........

*sigh*

Parma

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Oh....and of course the main point is that we didn''t learn as a club did we?

Maybe the revolving-door manager hadn''t learned the lesson himself, but surely the Sporrting Director, Director of Football, Football Board did?.............

..........''letting the manager manage''........

*sigh*

Parma

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I think I''d see it a bit differently from you Parma.

 

You seem to be suggesting on relegation, we should look to sell our best players - period.  I disagree - I think we should assess the squad, and (try to) decide which of our saleable players won''t make a valuable contribution in the Championship, and get rid of them.  But if one of our better players will hopefully be a standout player in the Championship, then I''d be in favour of keeping him (unless ridiculous money is on offer).  So I''d have wanted to keep Klose this summer, get rid of Naismith, and for Brady/Olsson it would have depended on their attitude and how much was available.  By definition that''s going to be a tough call to make.  But this summer, I agree, we seem to have decided to try to keep them all regardless, which isn''t looking so clever.  Although with a different manager ....

 

I agree with RVW (and IMO with Naismith too) that in both cases we''ve spent an amount of money which we just couldn''t afford to get wrong.  The RVW mistake is more understandable to me, because in that season we had the money to try to get some high-calibre players from the continent for the first time ever.  E.g. if you look at the other players we pursued like Alderweireld.  Yes, RVW was a catastrophic mistake in hindsight, but I can see why it happened.  There was that Bleacher report article which set out (after he scored on his debut for us) why he wasn''t suited to the Premiership, so it''s a shame we didn''t have someone with a similar level of insight as part of our recruitment team at the club, but that''s the way it goes.  Naismith though I still fail to understand what they thought he would add to our team.  This season he''s seen plenty of the ball when he''s played, against (supposedly) inferior quality players, and up till now he''s just managed a handful of performances where people have said he played pretty well.  It''s not exactly what you''d hope for from a "Premiership" quality player is it.

 

having said this, for me the massive mistake we''re making is sticking with the current manager.  someone who could get the squad performing to the level we know they can, would have us up competing for a top 2 position, which would more than make up for those recruitment mistakes.

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ICF,

The over-arching theory I put forward was not commonplace 2 years ago. It was counter-intuitive to the prevalent ''investment theory comfort'' of staying with what you know.

In this context - proved yet again this season - you are fostering and fermenting the sense of entitlement, too-good-for-the.-Championship mentality that bullies through an early period only to fall apart like a pack of cards when the ''false confidence'' that Clough spoke of - and which is an ever-present under-the.-surface issue for footballers - rears its ugly head.

His full phrase was:

''I strip away their false confidence and give them real confidence''

This approach is predicated on a ruthless stripping away of peripherals and a brutal confrontation of the realities of the actualite''.

Of course we agree that if players are the exception to the rule they should be kept, few theories are absolute or intended as such, however as a manager - and Ferguson demonstrated this time and time again - better to ruthlessly over-solve problems and (retrospectively) accept the occasional mistake in going too far, than to leave one slow festering virus (a player with a quite possibly justly held ''grievance'' for whatever reason upon relegation) to poison and undermine the inevitable and more fundamental job at hand.

Parma

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Play your best team... not your best players.

If the best player in the squad doesn''t fit into a system thats workjng, scoring goals, picking up points then he''s a sub or out completely...wait his chance until it comes.

Neither is happening here though!

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Football is a team game, its clear the team spirit has evaporated during 2016 (flash of nirvana shot through me there). Its that togetherness that drives all clubs together; and that is not always down to just the manager

For me a bulk clear out and refresh of the playing staff is an even higher priority than manager change; do we have the balls to do that?

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It''s too late Zip.

Moving on players is one of the hardest things to do in modern football. This why a more ruthless approach to your ''best'' players upon relegation is the best strategy available.

Players need to have value to others to be able to be moved on.

The Lafferty''s, RVW et al have to be given away or left to burn wages or corrupt younger stars.

Using managerial powers of persuasion to keep players in demand - Brady is the most obvious example - is a short term protect-my-own-job strategy that is presented as ambition.

As an Italian I play the odds. I do not dream of perfection, it is not on offer.

Unless untrammelled success is achieved immediately a player who was bought for £7m a year earlier, after a great Euros, and in demand from Premier Clubs at £15m, will inevitably wane mentally and lament the career ''what might have been''.

There is no magic of hindsight here. Worse it is our own lesson we failed to learn.

Parma

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I do recognise & accept that Parma; The (inappropriate) summer high price tag for brady seems a long way off, although he is likely to remain the most salable, just at a much lower price than we may want.

We have average mid table champs players, late in their career on very high wages so they will be impossible to move on - unless we CAN sell at best a brady / howson or naismith to fund part of it. Replacements wages will be much lower.

The saving grace may after all be that many contract are up this summer; although I am fearful of Turner-esque clauses coming to back to haunt us (anyone knwo who has such a clause (a bad santa variety at the moment I think)

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[quote user="Parma Hams gone mouldy"]It''s too late Zip. Moving on players is one of the hardest things to do in modern football. This why a more ruthless approach to your ''best'' players upon relegation is the best strategy available. Players need to have value to others to be able to be moved on. The Lafferty''s, RVW et al have to be given away or left to burn wages or corrupt younger stars. Using managerial powers of persuasion to keep players in demand - Brady is the most obvious example - is a short term protect-my-own-job strategy that is presented as ambition. As an Italian I play the odds. I do not dream of perfection, it is not on offer. Unless untrammelled success is achieved immediately a player who was bought for £7m a year earlier, after a great Euros, and in demand from Premier Clubs at £15m, will inevitably wane mentally and lament the career ''what might have been''. There is no magic of hindsight here. Worse it is our own lesson we failed to learn. Parma[/quote]

 

I still think this is a bit simplistic.  If you sell all your best players, the risk is you do send a big signal that you are lacking in ambition, and end up with worse players replacing them, and a weaker squad which makes it harder to get promotion. Parma IMO is just looking at one side of the equation.

It''s a bit lazy to start talking about Lafferty/RVW here - hardly our "best" players !  No one can doubt the club would''ve loved to unload RVW since the end of his first season, but clearly his wages stopped that happening.  For Lafferty, again AN would have sold him if he could, the decision was clearly made at one point to tell clubs he was only available for sale, not a further loan.  Then when we came to the end of the transfer window and were left very short of numbers up front, so I think the decision was made not to let him go (at that point).  You can debate that decision - we ended up getting in a lot of AMs and neglecting the striking area IMO, but signing strikers is always the hardest position in football.  But it''s a different question from whether you should clear out all your best players when you get relegated.

 

My view is that the answer should not be a blanket "yes, sell the lot" (which is what Parma seems to advocate) but equally it should not be "keep them all if you can" (which is what we did).  You need to take a cold hard look at your better players - the ones people really want to buy.  So basically we''re talking about Klose, Brady, Olsson, and (probably selling at a loss on what we paid) Naismith.  You need to assess whether they will be valuable assets in the Championship -will they be motivated and effective at that level ?  Motivation can only be assessed by talking to them, so on this messageaboard we''re in speculation mode here.  Effectiveness - all four of these players should (on paper!) be effective in the Championship and should be the sort of assets that give you an edge over the average Championship teams (like Barnsley).  And finally, is the money on offer too good to refuse - meaning, can you strengthen the squad overall, if you unload that individual and bring in replacements with the money ?

 

We actually dealt with this much more intelligently when we were relegated the time before - get rid of players like Fer, Snodgrass etc who would be of doubtful effectiveness/motivation & were saleable at good prices, bring in good quality Championship players like Jerome. 

 

Having said this, with the squad we have, well-organised and with decent motivation, IMO we''d have been competing for a top 2 spot, and that failure is mainly down to the manager.  So while mistakes were made on transfers last summer, they''re not the real problem right now IMO.

 

Looking at the four of them, personally I''d have said that Brady and Naismith had been quite indifferent for us in the 2nd half of the Prem season, so if we could have got £15m for Brady and £5m for Naismith, plus saving their wages, I''d have said that was good business.  Assuming we had a sensible target to replace Brady on the left of course (no need to replace Naismith, which tells a story in itself).  Klose I wanted to keep (although this assumes he showed enough motivation), ditto I think Olsson is a quality left back when properly coached. 

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[quote user="VanWink"]Are you the longest standing poster on the forum Syteanric?[/quote]

No idea, been putting up with you lot for 14 years though!!!

Not as prolific as I was years ago, always have my opinion though!

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ICF,

The over-arching theory I put forward was not commonplace 2 years ago. It was counter-intuitive to the prevalent ''investment theory comfort'' of staying with what you know.

In this context - proved yet again this season - you are fostering and fermenting the sense of entitlement, too-good-for-the.-Championship mentality that bullies through an early period only to fall apart like a pack of cards when the ''false confidence'' that Clough spoke of - and which is an ever-present under-the.-surface issue for footballers - rears its ugly head.

His full phrase was:

''I strip away their false confidence and give them real confidence''

This approach is predicated on a ruthless stripping away of peripherals and a brutal confrontation of the realities of the actualite''.

Of course we agree that if players are the exception to the rule they should be kept, few theories are absolute or intended as such, however as a manager - and Ferguson demonstrated this time and time again - better to ruthlessly over-solve problems and (retrospectively) accept the occasional mistake in going too far, than to leave one slow festering virus (a player with a quite possibly justly held ''grievance'' for whatever reason upon relegation) to poison and undermine the inevitable and more fundamental job at hand.

Parma

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