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The Great Mass Debater

Did selling Grant Holt get us relegated?

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The much maligned Grant Holt was criticised last season for his reduced output of 8 goals. Though I think this may well be the same if not more than Hooper, RvW, Elmander and Becchio put together. Holt was a talismanic leader and a central character at the club both on the pitch and in the dressing room - the special relationship he had here arguably meant his form and output saw him punch above his... ability. Who is to say that his output this season at Wigan and Villa, which has not been sensational, would not have been better here, where he was captain and legend.

Holt led by example, he spurred the team on. He won us territory on the pitch and free-kicks in vital areas. He was the outlet we needed, the man who could hold the ball up when the defence needed a break and we needed the time for the support to arrive. He was our most effective Premier League goalscorer, and unquestioned penalty taker (think back to Hull second game of the season).

Yes Holty wanted to leave, but the move to Villa suggests it wasnt all geography. Holt was one of the most important figures at our club for a long time, but he became unhappy under Chris Hughton, was undervalued by McNally and stopped enjoying his football. This affected his output and he wanted to leave. Hughtons tactics affected his output but he still did great comparitively last season, but he was labelled as past it and never really Premiership standard, but has outperformed his big money replacements in the same restrictive set-up.

When Holt became unhappy, the board backed Hughton and his masterplan, rather than the legend. Reminds me of when Iwan was jetissoned for being considered past it.

Did the decision to allow Holt to leave, or indeed not insist on the changes needed to keep both him and the other players happy more than anything contribut to our demise this season? Id have loved to have the Holty of old up front for the second half of this season - how could he have been any less effective than what we''ve had up front this season?

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I don''t think so, it was time to move on. You could perhaps argue that we didn''t replace the fight he gave us on the pitch. But I think Grant''s time as a PL player is very nearly up.

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Ive been saying Hughton wasnt up to the job since last season, but after a flattering 11th placed finish last season and the anticipation that the transition peirod was over and we would fire on all cylindars this season, sacking the manager wouldnt have been realistic. But I wonder if more could have been done to keep him. Recognising his value would have been a good start, if you''ve seen the interview when Holt talks about McNally you''ll know what I mean. Im sure Holt would have been vocal about the system as any employee is when they stop enjoying their job and feel nothing but frustration. Perhaps those frustrations should have been listened to and the approach been tempered, rather than everyone being far too keen to write Holty off, forget where we came from and replace a work horse with some supposedly gee-gee racehorses not up for the fight.

 

I think Holt could have been appreciated more and his unhappiness addressed without needing to sack the manager. But given the choice of who fudged off last summer Id have rather it was Hughton. What a shame Martin O''Neill got the Ireland job and not Chris

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I doubt selling Holty got us relegated. More likely it was spending the budget on strikers who were less effective. I don''t think you''d have got much support for playing Holty whilst leaving RVW/Hooper on the bench at the time. I guess people who didn''t think Holty was good enough for even the championship will revisit the situation now with different views. For whatever reason the new signings didn''t fit our team. As with a managererial appointment something that looks good on paper doesn''t neccessarily work out as expected.

 

As an aside I now see Snoddy suffering from the same criticisms as Holty when he was here. Could lightning strike twice?

 

 

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[quote user="morty"]Ahhhhh right, so this is actually about Hughton, not Holt...
[/quote]

 

No its about Holt and whoever decided to undervalue him - thats not necessarily Hughton. But as you brought Hughton up, do you not feel he is responsible for the team sitting where it does Morty?

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[quote user="The Great Mass Debater"]

[quote user="morty"]Ahhhhh right, so this is actually about Hughton, not Holt...[/quote]

 

No its about Holt and whoever decided to undervalue him - thats not necessarily Hughton. But as you brought Hughton up, do you not feel he is responsible for the team sitting where it does Morty?

[/quote]You have seen Holts record since he left, haven''t you? I think that pretty much answers any questions you have.

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]As an aside I now see Snoddy suffering from the same criticisms as Holty when he was here. Could lightning strike twice?

 [/quote]

To be fair, I don''t think the criticism Snoddy gets is the same as that for Holt.  I loved Holty to bits and  he was as unselfish and  as all encompassing as they come - whereas Snoddy appears a little bit too selfish sometimes, wanting to do it all himself when in attack then not chasing back enough. They both have their limitations in ability, of course, but I know who I would have preferred to see in the starting line up each week. 

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I was thinking the exact same thing this morning - how important was Grant Holt to the team and Norwich City as a club.

If/when we do get relegated how about getting Holty back, would be good in the championship. Player/manager with Culverhouse, Adams and Karsa as assistants.

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

I doubt selling Holty got us relegated. More likely it was spending the budget on strikers who were less effective. I don''t think you''d have got much support for playing Holty whilst leaving RVW/Hooper on the bench at the time. I guess people who didn''t think Holty was good enough for even the championship will revisit the situation now with different views. For whatever reason the new signings didn''t fit our team. As with a managererial appointment something that looks good on paper doesn''t neccessarily work out as expected.

 

As an aside I now see Snoddy suffering from the same criticisms as Holty when he was here. Could lightning strike twice?

 

 

[/quote]

 

 

I wouldnt be sure about that, look how much clamour there was for Becchio and recently even Loza to play ahead of them

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Whatever you say about Grant Holts record since leaving Norwich the fact remains that we have not replaced him. We have no leader on the pitch, and we do not have any forward that the opposition fears, I firmly believe our style of play requires a rugged unit up front to rough up the opposition, hold up the ball and bring the likes of Redmond, Snoody, Howson/Hoolahan into the game.......

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I was thinking on Saturday how many chances we had to score, but we never really looked like scoring.  Holt was great at latching onto the ball in those key areas and taking the chance, or forcing the other side into fouling him so we got a free kick in a vulnerable area. I''m sure he''d have got a goal on Saturday if he''d been playing (and also in close games too).

 

It was the right time to let GH go, but we needed to bring in at least one striker with the same physical presence and finishing ability that GH gave us.  Elmander may look similar but has never been able to contribute the same as GH.  RVW and Hooper are simply physically different players and we never played the way they need to contribute.  As for Becchio, who can say ?

 

So for me it was the failure to bring in a striker who could contribute the same as GH that has been our downfall this season.

 

It annoyed me on Saturday seeing Shane Long scoring for Hull.  Why didn''t we try to get someone like that in January?  Might not have been the solution to our problems, but he (or someone like him) could have been this season''s Kei Kamara - a guy who gets a couple of goals and contributes to earning points in 2 or 3 games which make the difference.

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[quote user="morty"][quote user="The Great Mass Debater"]

[quote user="morty"]Ahhhhh right, so this is actually about Hughton, not Holt...
[/quote]

 

No its about Holt and whoever decided to undervalue him - thats not necessarily Hughton. But as you brought Hughton up, do you not feel he is responsible for the team sitting where it does Morty?

[/quote]

You have seen Holts record since he left, haven''t you? I think that pretty much answers any questions you have.
[/quote]

 

You have a wonderful knack of avoiding the questions asked Morty - have you ever considered a career in politics?!  I did stae in my original post that whilst Holts record this season has not been great, one could argue it might have been better here as he was a ''special'' player here and the captain - though of course, this is pure conjecture. What is not conjecture is that Holt has scored the same number of Premier League goals as RvW and Elmander this season, in a fraction of the games, so dont quite understand the logic in arguing he would have performed at a lower level then them

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[quote user="The Great Mass Debater"][quote user="morty"][quote user="The Great Mass Debater"]

[quote user="morty"]Ahhhhh right, so this is actually about Hughton, not Holt...[/quote]

 

No its about Holt and whoever decided to undervalue him - thats not necessarily Hughton. But as you brought Hughton up, do you not feel he is responsible for the team sitting where it does Morty?

[/quote]You have seen Holts record since he left, haven''t you? I think that pretty much answers any questions you have.[/quote]

 

You have a wonderful knack of avoiding the questions asked Morty - have you ever considered a career in politics?!  I did stae in my original post that whilst Holts record this season has not been great, one could argue it might have been better here as he was a ''special'' player here and the captain - though of course, this is pure conjecture. What is not conjecture is that Holt has scored the same number of Premier League goals as RvW and Elmander this season, in a fraction of the games, so dont quite understand the logic in arguing he would have performed at a lower level then them

[/quote]You obviously have an extremely selective memory, towards the end of his time at Norwich he was looking very, very past his best.But of course thats all Hughton''s fault.....

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[quote user="The Great Mass Debater"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

I doubt selling Holty got us relegated. More likely it was spending the budget on strikers who were less effective. I don''t think you''d have got much support for playing Holty whilst leaving RVW/Hooper on the bench at the time. I guess people who didn''t think Holty was good enough for even the championship will revisit the situation now with different views. For whatever reason the new signings didn''t fit our team. As with a managererial appointment something that looks good on paper doesn''t neccessarily work out as expected.

 

As an aside I now see Snoddy suffering from the same criticisms as Holty when he was here. Could lightning strike twice?

 

 

[/quote]

 

 

I wouldnt be sure about that, look how much clamour there was for Becchio and recently even Loza to play ahead of them

[/quote]

 

Wouldn''t be so sure about what buddy?

 

 

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It''s hard to imagine that a motivated Holt wouldn''t have pitched in with half a dozen goals this season. Even if they bounced in off the belly that some accuse him of carrying.

Another half dozen goals and it''s unlikely we''d be in the bottom 3.

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Sorry, slightly misread your post (I am dyslexi though so cant be helped). I was referring to your comment about playing Holt ahead of Hooper and Rvw. I missed the bit about ''at the time''. i think plenty of people would stick Holt up front next week ahead of RvW or Hooper, but I agree, not when they were brought in at the start of the season, mainly because even we the fans were still too eager to believe he was still just a fat tyre-fitter. We wanted some pedigree (instead we got pedigree chumps)

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Morty - towards the end of his time at Norwich he was looking very, very past his best. But of course thats all Hughton''s fault.....

It has a lot to do with Hughton surely. It''s Hughton''s job to motivate the players and play to their strengths. He clearly didn''t do that with Holt last season. More often than not, Holt was roaming about in midfield trying to win the ball the team was sitting so deep.

All things considered, Holt''s 8 goals last season look like quite an achievement and would have been very welcome this term.

I don''t understand the ongoing defence of Hughton given we''re about to be relegated and given his overall contribution and instead taking pot shots at Holt.

Simple question, who would you rather have had in the squad this season RVW or Holt?

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[quote user="morty"][quote user="The Great Mass Debater"][quote user="morty"][quote user="The Great Mass Debater"]

[quote user="morty"]Ahhhhh right, so this is actually about Hughton, not Holt...[/quote]

 

No its about Holt and whoever decided to undervalue him - thats not necessarily Hughton. But as you brought Hughton up, do you not feel he is responsible for the team sitting where it does Morty?

[/quote]You have seen Holts record since he left, haven''t you? I think that pretty much answers any questions you have.[/quote]

 

You have a wonderful knack of avoiding the questions asked Morty - have you ever considered a career in politics?!  I did stae in my original post that whilst Holts record this season has not been great, one could argue it might have been better here as he was a ''special'' player here and the captain - though of course, this is pure conjecture. What is not conjecture is that Holt has scored the same number of Premier League goals as RvW and Elmander this season, in a fraction of the games, so dont quite understand the logic in arguing he would have performed at a lower level then them

[/quote]You obviously have an extremely selective memory, towards the end of his time at Norwich he was looking very, very past his best.But of course thats all Hughton''s fault.....[/quote]

It was actually Hughton''s fault. He played Holty in a totally different role than what Lambert did.

When Hughton signed RVW he quoted something in the lines of "it''s not just about scoring goals as it is for putting in a shift for the team"!

This should have sounded a few alarm bells then!

Insight is a wonderful thing.

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[quote user="Kingston Yellow"]Morty - towards the end of his time at Norwich he was looking very, very past his best. But of course thats all Hughton''s fault.....

It has a lot to do with Hughton surely. It''s Hughton''s job to motivate the players and play to their strengths. He clearly didn''t do that with Holt last season. More often than not, Holt was roaming about in midfield trying to win the ball the team was sitting so deep.

All things considered, Holt''s 8 goals last season look like quite an achievement and would have been very welcome this term.

I don''t understand the ongoing defence of Hughton given we''re about to be relegated and given his overall contribution and instead taking pot shots at Holt.

Simple question, who would you rather have had in the squad this season RVW or Holt?[/quote]How many goals did Holt score for Wigan?How many appearances has he made for Villa?Use your crystal ball and tell me how many goals he would have scored for us this season, try and avoid a moronic answer like "More than Ricky"

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[quote user="The Great Mass Debater"]Sorry, slightly misread your post (I am dyslexi though so cant be helped). I was referring to your comment about playing Holt ahead of Hooper and Rvw. I missed the bit about ''at the time''. i think plenty of people would stick Holt up front next week ahead of RvW or Hooper, but I agree, not when they were brought in at the start of the season, mainly because even we the fans were still too eager to believe he was still just a fat tyre-fitter. We wanted some pedigree (instead we got pedigree chumps)[/quote]

 

No worries I was just confused. But dislexi or not you ended up putting it better than me[Y]

 

 

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So, in short, in answer to the question "Did selling Grant Holt get us relegated" the answer is no.

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No - selling grant (or buying hooper/RvW as replacements) did not get us relegated.

 

Play poor quality football,  losing possession and players not doing their jobs in central midfield, the clubs lack of success in strengthening the CB & midfield  positions together with the managers inability to get the players to understand and deliver a game plan is what has left us in our current predicament.

 

Anyone who still think RvW (or hooper or elmander) cost us the game on sat is sadly deluded,  the core problems start and finish behind them

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[quote user="Kingston Yellow"]Morty - why don''t you just answer the question instead of sidestepping the issue? Who would you rather have had in the squad this season RVW or Holt?[/quote]An imaginary Grant Holt who can still be effective at this level, or the actual one?And really the question would have been better asked at the beginning of the season, no one could have predicted how things have turned out for Ricky, much the same as no one can predict how Grant Holt would have fared here.

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From Today''s Football365.com;

 

Sticking Out
On-loan Villa striker Grant Holt has understandably rallied to the defence of the only manager who would have considered giving him a game in the Premier League.

"It''s always the way when things are going against you that people look at the manager. But we deserve the stick," says Holt.

No Grant, the man who signed you - a man who had scored two goals in 16 Championship games for Wigan this season - deserves the stick.

Happy to help.

 

 


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[quote user="Kingston Yellow"]Morty - why don''t you just answer the question instead of sidestepping the issue? Who would you rather have had in the squad this season RVW or Holt?[/quote]

Sidestep''s more questions than Snodgrass does full backs!

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