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morty

Financial prudence.

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[quote user="City 2nd"]Don''t disagree with you Morty regarding financial aspect, as long as the club use the positives of that to get in a good manager with free hand to get in some decent players whatever the cost,capable of taking us back. My concern is that they should have spent some of those finances we have back in January in an effort to stave off what we are looking at now.

They didn''t - and I am concerned they won''t in the future.

McNally is a very financially orientated individual.

And DM makes reference to success![/quote]What if we had spent some of next seasons budget in January (I have it on authority that we were trying to) and we went down anyway?There really is a limit as to how much you should gamble.

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Pretty much what I was getting at in the ''how bad is this season'' thread when I referred to the fact that it had been an unmitigated disaster ''on the football side''. The lack of debt in the Club is certainly to be applauded, particularly as we do not have a billionaire sugar daddy to bail us out on occasions like this.BUT.......... if this is all part of some fiendish masterplan, as is being implied, then it''s one hell of a gamble, and playing fast and loose with the future of the football side of Norwich City FC. The board had better make damned sure that we are back in the Prem in two years max, because , as others have said, history is littered with clubs who''ve been relegated and taken ages to regain the status....ourselves included !

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If we had, and it kept us up, it would look like good business. Hypothetical now really, and we will never know the answer!

I don''t doubt they tried to bring some in in the January window, but as you say, no guarantee it would have worked.

And yes I agree, there is a limit to how much you should gamble - only have to look at our foes down the A140 to see that.

With the Fair a Play rules taking hold these next few seasons, we are in good shape, so onwards and upwards I hope.

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In my opinion if you accept that we''ll lose a few of our better players and factor in how low fan moral is low and we''re unlikely to find a manager as right for us as Lambert was, we''re finishing this season a weaker team than the one that finished the league 1 season.

In all aspects apart from finance of course which is why I''m saying I hope we did hold back finds in case we wen''t down because without decent investment or another lucky Lambert like appointment I think 12-8th is about as best as we could hope for if we just kept most of the team with one or two cheap additions.

I doubt it though, we were just being stingy and complacent this year, this relegation was never expected by the board.

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Do the high earners really have reductions for relegation in their contracts? Wolves were relegated without debts but were screwed by high earners on premiership wages they couldn''t get rid of because of the wages they were on. I would be very surprised if the high earners would''ve agreed to reductions because their stock was much higher at the time the contracts were signed & so the club would need to have pushed the boat out to get them to sign

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It''s a very thin line isn''t it, and I don''t think you can say the board "got it right".

If we get relegated, I fully agree we can say "Well, at least we''re in a good financial position, good job we didn''t throw all our money away" and it will be a positive.

But at the moment, the realism is a lack of investment is partially why we''re going down. You can''t want to stay in the Premiership on one hand and then when we''re about to go down praise the board for not spending when we go down without their being just a slight hint of irony.

It is, of course, no guarantee that spending another 5-10 million would have kept us up but of course - had we done so and stayed up - that would have been financially sensible as staying in the Premier League is worth a lot more than that.

I used to think Hughton and his scouting team had a good eye for a player and all his signings looked to have potential but this season suggests that might not actually be the case. Snoddy was a target pre Hughton, Ruddy was pre Hughton Howson Johnson were pre Hughton. They''ve been some of our better players.

Should we have gone down spending an extra 5 million would it have made the situation impeccably worse? Probably not although i don''t know how tight the budgets are personally.

So whilst it looks like we''re going down - we do have the peace of mind that our club is safe and we shouldn''t need a whole sale clear out, least not for financial reasons.

And at the end of this I realise I probably haven''t answered - I don''t think I can.

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Wow, does that rumour about the No.10 transfer transfer that fell through come from a source you really trust?

We all knew we''d be after one, and that Wes would be up the A14 if we did, but I''d be amazed (and quite disappointed) if we were prepared to spend a chunk of next seasons budget during this January.

Hardy financially prudent, in fact quite reckless. We could have still found ourselves in this position and if we were relegated we could well have been forced into a fire sale to cover the hole in the budget.

Really struggling to believe McNally would allow that.

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[quote user="morty"][quote user="Barclay seats 4849 the 3rd"][quote user="Hector Brockelbank"]I think the financial prudence has come by accident rather than by design. We couldn''t get who we wanted in January so kept our powder dry. The board still thought Chris was the man to keep us up and he in turn thought that the squad he had would keep us up and we could go shopping in the summer with more money than we have ever had before. Unfortunately it doesn''t look like it''s quite going to happen like that. We could still be big spenders this summer, just in a lower division. But yes the club is probably in the best financial shape it ever has been.[/quote]

I said after January came and went that in my opinion ,, the money was withheld from CH , in the belief that 1) he would definitely not be the manager 2014-2015

2)We were already looking like we were in a fight for our Premiership lives after the first half of the season .[/quote]Well done[Y][/quote]

Sarcasm was not called for ,, if you read the quote ! I was replying to the statement of " more by accident than design" It was not an " I told you so "

I was saying that I believe that the planning ,,,or at least the plan was forming back in January

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[quote user="Mr Brownstone"]Wow, does that rumour about the No.10 transfer transfer that fell through come from a source you really trust?

We all knew we''d be after one, and that Wes would be up the A14 if we did, but I''d be amazed (and quite disappointed) if we were prepared to spend a chunk of next seasons budget during this January.

Hardy financially prudent, in fact quite reckless. We could have still found ourselves in this position and if we were relegated we could well have been forced into a fire sale to cover the hole in the budget.

Really struggling to believe McNally would allow that.[/quote]Yes, its from an extremely trustworthy, no bull$hit source.

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I don''t see how any club of our size can count on being in the Premier, which is what causes the split in the Division. Blackburn, Charlton, Bolton, and Leeds all had sustained periods in the Premier but then dropped out.

To run as a business mid sized clubs will always need to plan for relegation - those with wealthy benefactors have a different problem, what if the benefactor walks away?

I am proud of how our clubs finances are managed, just wish things would turn around on the pitch!

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[quote user="Mr Brownstone"]Wow, does that rumour about the No.10 transfer transfer that fell through come from a source you really trust?

We all knew we''d be after one, and that Wes would be up the A14 if we did, but I''d be amazed (and quite disappointed) if we were prepared to spend a chunk of next seasons budget during this January.

Hardy financially prudent, in fact quite reckless. We could have still found ourselves in this position and if we were relegated we could well have been forced into a fire sale to cover the hole in the budget.

Really struggling to believe McNally would allow that.[/quote]If it is the one McNally talked about after the January window shut then it was a loan deal:David McNally has revealed they had also targeted a creative midfielder on loan in a bid to address City’s chronic goal output. “We were very close to bringing in a creative midfielder,” he said. “We were in the market for a number 10 or someone to play just off a striker and we were very close to taking someone on loan from a huge club. What it needed was for one of their targets to come in and then it would have happened, until the end of the season. It would have made a huge difference in that area but the good news is Jon (Howson) is close to being back with us after injury and he is someone we have missed who has played in that part of the pitch and we have missed him. Of course Wes (Hoolahan) is also back in the fold so we have two players now available that were not at the start of January, although Jonny might take a while fitness-wise to get fully up to speed.”

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[quote user="Barclay seats 4849 the 3rd"][quote user="morty"][quote user="Barclay seats 4849 the 3rd"][quote user="Hector Brockelbank"]I think the financial prudence has come by accident rather than by design. We couldn''t get who we wanted in January so kept our powder dry. The board still thought Chris was the man to keep us up and he in turn thought that the squad he had would keep us up and we could go shopping in the summer with more money than we have ever had before. Unfortunately it doesn''t look like it''s quite going to happen like that. We could still be big spenders this summer, just in a lower division. But yes the club is probably in the best financial shape it ever has been.[/quote]

I said after January came and went that in my opinion ,, the money was withheld from CH , in the belief that 1) he would definitely not be the manager 2014-2015

2)We were already looking like we were in a fight for our Premiership lives after the first half of the season .[/quote]Well done[Y][/quote]

Sarcasm was not called for ,, if you read the quote ! I was replying to the statement of " more by accident than design" It was not an " I told you so "

I was saying that I believe that the planning ,,,or at least the plan was forming back in January[/quote]Apologies if I misunderstood[Y]

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[quote user="morty"][quote user="Barclay seats 4849 the 3rd"][quote user="morty"][quote user="Barclay seats 4849 the 3rd"][quote user="Hector Brockelbank"]I think the financial prudence has come by accident rather than by design. We couldn''t get who we wanted in January so kept our powder dry. The board still thought Chris was the man to keep us up and he in turn thought that the squad he had would keep us up and we could go shopping in the summer with more money than we have ever had before. Unfortunately it doesn''t look like it''s quite going to happen like that. We could still be big spenders this summer, just in a lower division. But yes the club is probably in the best financial shape it ever has been.[/quote]

I said after January came and went that in my opinion ,, the money was withheld from CH , in the belief that 1) he would definitely not be the manager 2014-2015

2)We were already looking like we were in a fight for our Premiership lives after the first half of the season .[/quote]Well done[Y][/quote]

Sarcasm was not called for ,, if you read the quote ! I was replying to the statement of " more by accident than design" It was not an " I told you so "

I was saying that I believe that the planning ,,,or at least the plan was forming back in January[/quote]Apologies if I misunderstood[Y][/quote]

Thank you :)

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Fine we are in good financial state. Not as good as if we had stayed in the Premier which could have been achieved without investment which would have incurred major financial risk. No this wasn''t achieved and you know who I blame.

Unless we get back to Premier League in short time it will not be too long before finance is a real problem again. Income from being a Championship club without a sugar daddy is unlikely to sustain a promotion push.

How many years of being a Championship club will it take for the Academy Grade 1 status to become history.

Financial prudence with no ambition where have we heard that before. Caught up in the Doncaster mantra.

Get in significant investment and get rid of this Board and CEO. However not gonna happen. Looking forward to mediocrity.

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Hogesar I am not sure that lack of investment is the issue, it is misdirected investment. Specifically buying two strikers in the summer who were never suited to the system we were going to play.

Trying to rectify the situation in January was always going to be an uphill task. And as Purple has pointed out we did not end up getting all we were after.

Yes if we had spent £5m - £10m and it had kept us up it would have been a good investment but as you point out there are no guarantees. Plus that sort of money is not enough to transform a team.

Also given the nature of the business it is not entirely logical. If that is what it took then all the clubs in the bottom two thirds of the division would surely invest that to assure survival. But all could invest and yet as we all know three still go down.

The same logic applies to all the other blame game scenarios. For instance we could have a utopian league where all 20 clubs are well run at board level, all make inspirational signings that perform, have managers that get their tactics and set ups right on the pitch, have players that all perform and deliver attacking entertaining football, and the referees all officiate brilliantly and there are no dodgy penalties. And at the end of the season - three still get relegated!!

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Who knows... Wolves did what we did and payed off their debts, and were rewarded with a double relegation.

I think the board made decent transfer funds available this Summer and we should be on a sound footing in the Championship, whatever that means.

The criticism of all this of course, is we got relegated in a weak league this season. Not very good at all.

And it can be very difficult to get into the winning mindset back post-relegation.

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Thou shalt only blame the paying support for the situation that we currently find ourselves in......Thou shalt never ever have the audacity to apportion blame to the Club''s board or its coaching or playing staff......

 

Even if the support hasn''t created the current situation we now find ourselves in......It''s us as supporters that should take one for the club.....

 

Turn up against Arsenal for the final game of the season, and with energetic gusto, self flagellate your buttocks with your personal issued happy clapper until the squad emerges before kick off.......Then take your seat and feel that excruciating pain in your well thwacked derrières -  as we play our last game this season in the top flight......It''s really all our fault as loyal unwavering supporters, and we deserve to be punished!

 

(Oh, and if you''re a supporter going to Chelsea, just consume a platter of jellied eels before the game without regurgitating, that''ll be sufficient punishment)......

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To avoid administration the loans had to be renegotiated. The lenders demanded rapid repayment if we made the premier league. Financial prudence? Yes by the banks but hardly something to praise the board for in this regard.

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Sometimes you need a little luck to be successful.   Getting to the Premiership when we did  - and staying in it - enabled us to get the windfall as well as pay off our debts.    So in three seasons we went from being beggars to being quids in.    Good work, yes but a little luck with the timing along the way helped.

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Financial prudence should be a means to an end, not an end itself.The ''end'' ought to be attractive and successful football at Premier League level, with the aim of winning cups and competing in Europe.What we''ve got instead is a board which expressly prefers that we don''t play in Europe and tolerates a poor manager playing poor football.

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Agree JonnyH it is a means to an end. So maybe where we are now is part of that journey.

Those saying that the financial stewardship has been sound are not really referring to the paying off of the debt (although I think you are responding to Lakey here), over which there was no choice. But the fact that we have not just remortgaged ourselves again to boost the playing budget.

I have made the point previously it is not that the club have not invested. They did last summer. The problem is that it has not turned out to be a good investment. Our strikers have not performed. However making a bad investment is not then a good argument for overstretching yourself by going beyond the approved transfer budget.

We are all bitterly disappointed, none more so than me. Having paid the debt off we were in a great position to lay the foundations for an extended sty in the premiership. However it is not poor financial management that has let us down, a sizeable budget, for us, was set and given to the manager. It was just poorly spent. I have said before that Hughton spending on strikers that were never going to fit the system he played was a whole level of incompetence beyond the criticisms that have been levelled at his playing style.

Not sure where you got the bit about the board expressly not wanting to play in Europe. Not heard that before. Possibly they are just angry words, and you will get no criticism from me for being angry. We have wasted a great chance.!!!

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Assuming no great escape, The boad and CEO will now be writing our strategy for next season. The goal will be either immediate promotion back to the prem or consolidate. Budgets set accordingly which would include how much to spend on a Manager to achieve the goal and the risk associated with the strategy. The Manager named for next season will be the clue as to our ambitions and goal.

There will have been similar plans for the last 3 years which included relegation contingency covered in the contracts of high earners amoung other similar prudent measures. In a way, next season. requires more planning and stratergy than this one.

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[quote user="Sussexyellow"]Agree JonnyH it is a means to an end. So maybe where we are now is part of that journey.

Those saying that the financial stewardship has been sound are not really referring to the paying off of the debt (although I think you are responding to Lakey here), over which there was no choice. But the fact that we have not just remortgaged ourselves again to boost the playing budget.

I have made the point previously it is not that the club have not invested. They did last summer. The problem is that it has not turned out to be a good investment. Our strikers have not performed. However making a bad investment is not then a good argument for overstretching yourself by going beyond the approved transfer budget.

We are all bitterly disappointed, none more so than me. Having paid the debt off we were in a great position to lay the foundations for an extended sty in the premiership. However it is not poor financial management that has let us down, a sizeable budget, for us, was set and given to the manager. It was just poorly spent. I have said before that Hughton spending on strikers that were never going to fit the system he played was a whole level of incompetence beyond the criticisms that have been levelled at his playing style.[/quote]Agree with the above Sussexyellow. My comments are only generally aimed at the little old Norwichers who

think we''ve just been a bit unlucky and shouldn''t complain due to the

fact that there are several comparable or bigger clubs in a worse

position. It''s a sort of loser mindset that fails to aim to be the best and makes excuses for the

fact that we shot ourselves in both feet.In the Premier League bad management decisions on the football side can put a smaller side in danger of relegation, even if they are reasonably well run financially. I think for clubs like Norwich which don''t have a rich benefactor, it''s imperative that we don''t make any big mistakes, whether it''s keeping a poor manager or a paying a lot for unsuitable players. There are always a few teams who come unstuck through making significant errors, which should mean that we stood a good chance of staying up if we could avoid the same.I was never happy paying so much for Wolfswinkel because it was like putting all your eggs in one basket and the money could have been better spent in midfield/defence. In the event we had two similar main strikers, one of whom missed a lot of the season through injury, and were caught short when Fer was similarly out injured later on. We badly missed Holt. Definitely a great chance for an extended stay gone up in smoke.

[quote user="Sussexyellow"]Not sure where you got the bit about the board expressly not wanting to

play in Europe. Not heard that before. Possibly they are just angry

words, and you will get no criticism from me for being angry. We have

wasted a great chance.!!![/quote]What follows is quoted from one of Juggy''s posts which has since been deleted by the moderator (but visible via Google''s cache). To be absolutely fair the quotes may not be in a fair context (I have no idea if they are or not), but I''d personally love it if Norwich had the chance to be playing a Cypriot or Kazak side in the Europa League.

Bowkett:

“We were speaking earlier to Chris and when he was manager at

Birmingham, that probably cost them promotion. I know if I was the owner

of Birmingham where I would like to be. And that’s the sad thing

because I’ve just come in from Istanbul and would I like to be going

away to play to Besiktas? Well that would be great. But without being

unfair, playing a Cypriot side doesn’t set your blood rushing, does it?”

McNally: “If you get to the later stages you might make some money from it

but it would be perhaps a (Premier League) merit award (about £1.2m) or

one and a bit if you get to the final. There are enough examples with

Stoke in recent years, Fulham, Middlesbrough. I was at Celtic 10 years

ago and even with a 60,000 all-seater stadium it was only in the later

stages that we made any money."

“The model has changed somewhat in that time and in fairness they

are trying to make it more of a commercially attractive proposition, but

compared to the Premier League… It’s not easy coming back from

Kazakhstan from a Thursday night, getting back to the airport at 5am and

then preparing to go to Manchester City on the Sunday, which is what

teams do.”

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Thanks JonnyH for doing the research. I have not seen the quotes before.

As you say the context is not clear, but it hardly reflects enthusiasm for a european campaign. Filed in the drawer labelled - "Cup competitions".

And whilst like you and probably all other supporters I would love to see European football at Carrow Rd - if for no other reason than for what must have gone on before - at the same time you can see the points they are making.

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[quote user="Citizen Journalist Foghorn"]Who knows... Wolves did what we did and payed off their debts, and were rewarded with a double relegation.

I think the board made decent transfer funds available this Summer and we should be on a sound footing in the Championship, whatever that means.

The criticism of all this of course, is we got relegated in a weak league this season. Not very good at all.

And it can be very difficult to get into the winning mindset back post-relegation.[/quote]Wolves did not insert relegation clauese into any of their big contracts. Jamie O''Hara is still a Wolves player earning £40k per week but has not featured in the squad once this season. Roger Johnson, Stephen Ward and Kevin Doyle were the same but Wolves managed to loan them out to offset some of the wage bill.McNally has already publicly stated that every contract at Norwich has a relegation clause.

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[quote user="Al"]Do the high earners really have reductions for relegation in their contracts? Wolves were relegated without debts but were screwed by high earners on premiership wages they couldn''t get rid of because of the wages they were on. I would be very surprised if the high earners would''ve agreed to reductions because their stock was much higher at the time the contracts were signed & so the club would need to have pushed the boat out to get them to sign[/quote]

McNally stated in his regular staff meeting in response to that question " all but two of the current squad have a relegation clause in their contract". As to who they are, he didn''t elaborate.

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Well that''s a worry Hobgoblin.

We can all start a guessing game on this as to who they are. Lets hope we can offload or loan out.........hmmm

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