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morty

Financial prudence.

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Have the board actually been very clever in this respect?If we go down, we really are in very, very good shape. The club is essentially debt free, and is extremely well run.Given the relative size of our club (in terms of financial clout) do you think that the board saw relegation as almost inevitable at some point, and have prepared accordingly?If this is the case, can it really be seen as a failing or lack of ambition?

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"The plan" allowed for one relegation.  We have five years of parachute payments, so we will be one of the strongest squads in the Championship.However, did we have enough of a go financially with personnel?  That debate will go on forever.Blame Chris, or the players, but our strikers as a group have completely failed to score.  I know chances have been thin on the ground, but confidence has not been there.Wolfie with a year under his belt and some muscle would have come good in the prem for me.Hooper is totally unproven at this level and should never have been our second striker.  Look at Hull, Jelavic and Long banging them in, plus Davies and Huddlestone.  All players we should have and could have gone for.Anyway, we''re down.  It''s a collective failure and pinning blame on manager, players or board is pointless, what counts now is getting a strong squad together with the right manager for an immediate bound back.Depressingly exciting times.

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I have to say that although there was originally a seven year plan  which included the possibility of a relegation - that plan was kind of side tracked by our rapid promotion.  The fact that relegation was a forseeable possibility - due to the fact that financially we were still going to be one of the lesser clubs in the top division - we should look at it realistically - and that realism says that indeed we are now in a very sustainable place financially.  If we go down there will be adjustments, but with parachute payments and obvious player changes, we should remain healthy. 

Failing or lack of ambition? Definitely not.  If we go down we will all enjoy being a bigger fish than we have been these last three seasons, can look forward to some really competitive football and hopefully put this season behind us and get the positivity going.   Never nice, but if we are relegated, things won''t seem so bad come September.  Remember the optimism at the beginning of the League 1 season...........

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Morty, I am very glad our club is run on a very sound financial footing. There''s no huge panic anywhere on how we will implode after relegation.

Hopefully this means we will be competitive and push for the top spots, or at the very least tonk Ipswich a couple more times.

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Ooh good subject Morty. Its weird isnt it, when that "seven year plan" was originally made public I guess we would all have been impressed by its ambition and happy that the club had a long term plan that seemed to be totally realistic for a club of our size and position at that time, and when looking at how the EPL had shaped up over the years with many clubs bigger than Norwich City failing miserably to stay in it.

So, in answer to your question and taking into account what I remember of that plan, then "yes" the board did see relegation as almost inevitable at some point and the plan accomodated for it.......it perhaps just didnt happen when they thought it would, jsut as the actual promotion to the EPL was a little ahead of schedule.

Is planning for a relegation showing lack of ambition, certainly not as part of a plan that has its objective of bringing the club up to a level where it can become an established EPL side.  So, no its not failing....it is actually probably ahead of its plan regardless of whether we go down this season and could be classed as a success, it sounds strange but its a fair refelction of what has happened vs the plan to date.

Now, some, maybe many will have difficulty understanding that we are a "success" after this very difficult and disappointing season (and I am as gutted as the next man that the EPL could be missing us next season), but there will be some of us, not sure how many, who will live with the disappointment and know that, should we drop, we will have a very strong chance of returning very quickly....because the board have actually been clever. 

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IIRC paying off the debt after two years in the Premier League was part of the re-negotiating of our loans when went down to League 1. Let''s hope we never have to do that again.

 

 

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I think the financial prudence has come by accident rather than by design. We couldn''t get who we wanted in January so kept our powder dry. The board still thought Chris was the man to keep us up and he in turn thought that the squad he had would keep us up and we could go shopping in the summer with more money than we have ever had before. Unfortunately it doesn''t look like it''s quite going to happen like that. We could still be big spenders this summer, just in a lower division. But yes the club is probably in the best financial shape it ever has been.

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The board have acted like any sane business would, which is unfortunately not a common theme across football. They''ve put us in a good position regardless of what league we will be in, meaning that we can invest according to our relative income and league.

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What is the wage bill going to be next season? Very doubtful that the parachute payment will cover it so how is it going to be paid?

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[quote user="Al"]What is the wage bill going to be next season? Very doubtful that the parachute payment will cover it so how is it going to be paid?[/quote]There will be clauses in players contracts reducing their wage accordingly. Any particularly high earners would likely be off any way.My main point here is that the board have actually got it spot on, financially any way. Rather than it being "$hit, we''re relegated, what we going to do now?" it appears that there is a sound business plan in place.

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Morty,

You may well be right in your assumptions, although possibly they have been too clever, as had they released the purse strings somewhat in January we may have got the right player(s) to have kept us up, but that said I think we have three or four youngsters who can make a name for themselves in the Championship, if that is where we are playing next year, and these lads will of course be reasonably cheap to keep, no transfer fee and relatively low wages initially. So, if we are prepared to give them a go, it would allow us a reasonable budget to buy in more expensive/experienced players if needed.

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[quote user="Ray"]Morty,

You may well be right in your assumptions, although possibly they have been too clever, as had they released the purse strings somewhat in January we may have got the right player(s) to have kept us up, but that said I think we have three or four youngsters who can make a name for themselves in the Championship, if that is where we are playing next year, and these lads will of course be reasonably cheap to keep, no transfer fee and relatively low wages initially. So, if we are prepared to give them a go, it would allow us a reasonable budget to buy in more expensive/experienced players if needed.[/quote]I have been told Ray, by a very reliable source, that a deal for a number 10 fell through, but that the money that would have been spent would actually have come out of next season''s budget.If we get relegated it certainly won''t be the financial disaster it has been in previous seasons, and yes, our crop of youth could well provide for us.

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Morty,

I have heard that too, but perhaps it shows a lack of a back up plan, although it may have fallen through literally at the last minute?

That said I''m not sure CH would have played with a No 10 in the traditional way, because he had Hoolahan and chose pretty much not to play him as a typical No 10, or not select him at all or play him wide. Had he given him a run and a chance to settle into the role then.........??

I know Hoolhan may noy have been the answer to all our ills, because imo he is a hit or miss player, but it sort of outlines CH''s strategy?

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[quote user="Ray"]Morty,

I have heard that too, but perhaps it shows a lack of a back up plan, although it may have fallen through literally at the last minute?

That said I''m not sure CH would have played with a No 10 in the traditional way, because he had Hoolahan and chose pretty much not to play him as a typical No 10, or not select him at all or play him wide. Had he given him a run and a chance to settle into the role then.........??

I know Hoolhan may noy have been the answer to all our ills, because imo he is a hit or miss player, but it sort of outlines CH''s strategy?[/quote]I don''t have the time to get into the Hoolahan debate again lol[;)]

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The reasonable assumption that debt and success on the field do not go hand in hand because the former leads to restraint in the transfer market, the inability to capture the best players and the need to sell the best to survive all underlined by the constant uncertainty and insecurity and the need for a negative approach has it''s polar opposite in as much as lack of debt should be viewed as a major positive.

 

We do not have to look far to see how a large debt, by acting as a millstone around the neck of a club, can reduce expectations whereby supporters feel that tenth place in the Chumps constitutes a good season. 

 

I wonder just how many of the 92 are not afflicted by indebtedness? Not many I would assume excepting those with multi rich owners who are able to continue to pump in the millions with impunity and without concern. FFP might act as a restrictive force against such situations, but already there appears to be loop-holes and/or back-tracking by the various footballing authorities.

 

I am not at all happy about impending relegation, but I remain delighted at the financial management of the Club since those frightening days of potential League One obscurity. Our healthy financial position aided and abetted by continuingly good support along with the parachute money and some potential income from sales is our beacon of hope for the immediate future.

 

Neither must we forget our Youth set-up which by producing our current crop of  excellent youngsters also illustrates that the money has been wisely invested and should likely produce further dividends.

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Morty, have the board acted with good financial stewardship. Then I would say yes.

Would they have prepared for the possibility of relegation at some time. I would certainly hope so. A club like ours is never going to be immune from relegation.It will happen at some point. So it would not be prudent to overstretch our finances. Hopefully the lessons of a few years when we faced administration would have been learnt and we will not go their again.

However for those seeking solace in the 7 year plan and that relegation is just part of it - well that I do not buy. Having survived for two years against the odds the relegation part of the plan should have been junked and a new plan created. Hence McNally''s worse than death comment.

As you point out we should still be in good shape financially, and being in good shape financially is not a failing. The board have to plan for the long term, not just a one season gamble.

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[quote user="Sussexyellow"]Morty, have the board acted with good financial stewardship. Then I would say yes.

Would they have prepared for the possibility of relegation at some time. I would certainly hope so. A club like ours is never going to be immune from relegation.It will happen at some point. So it would not be prudent to overstretch our finances. Hopefully the lessons of a few years when we faced administration would have been learnt and we will not go their again.

However for those seeking solace in the 7 year plan and that relegation is just part of it - well that I do not buy. Having survived for two years against the odds the relegation part of the plan should have been junked and a new plan created. Hence McNally''s worse than death comment.

As you point out we should still be in good shape financially, and being in good shape financially is not a failing. The board have to plan for the long term, not just a one season gamble.[/quote]I agree re keeping your plans fluid, and the constant need to re-evaluate. But this isn''t a normal business we are in, its horribly unpredictable. A side can spend a fortune and get relegated, or spend very little and actually do quite well.You can spend 8 odd million on a striker that you think is going to get you the goals to keep you up, and he can flop[;)]

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"As you point out we should still be in good shape financially, and being in good shape financially is not a failing. The board have to plan for the long term, not just a one season gamble."

 

Quite correct SY but I do feel that we should go into next season (if in the Chumps of course) with all guns blazing. For me this involves getting the right manager in place as soon as possible, holding on to as many of the current playing staff as is feasible (although I realise some would prefer a Draconian clear-out,) one or two decent signings to plug the gaps and a positive approach with full-houses baying at the potential slaughter of the lesser teams we will encounter. A veritable "let''s be ''aving you" scenario for every home game.

 

OK, so the last bit was somewhat tongue-in-cheek but I really think that our best chance of getting up there will be the first season whilst we still have remaining some of the taint and traits of the Premier League.

 

It could well then get harder if we become too comfortable in the Championship, attracting lesser players by the season and with diminishing crowds and diminishing finances.

 

I might venture as to suggest that if we do not yo-yo then that would be the time for our current majority shareholders to actively consider passing the baton to any carefully considered individual with enough dosh and commitment to keep our hopes alive by promising a new era in the history of Norwich City Football Club.[:D]

 

 

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Morty,

Yep that is pretty much where I am coming from. There are a lot of examples of clubs who have gambled and its all gone wrong.

I think we are going to have to agree to agree.

Thumbs up thing.

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[quote user="Sussexyellow"]Morty,

Yep that is pretty much where I am coming from. There are a lot of examples of clubs who have gambled and its all gone wrong.

I think we are going to have to agree to agree.

Thumbs up thing.[/quote][Y]

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I can understand the theories uttered by all on this thread. Hopefully we all agree that Bowkett and McNally did not ''plan to fail''. There have been some dreadful decisions by board and Manager, yet we should have managed to retain our Premier status.

If we get relegated the board must try and issue a statement of intent followed by positive action.

No one wants to lose Premier status but I will look forward to next season and hope the miserable Doomcaster type days and ''little ole Norwich'' are well and truly behind us.

An impressive management decision plus confirmation of McNally retaining his position and this miserable poster might allow a smile to dance across the old boat

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Ultimately for me, i just want my club to still be here in 25 years time, i wouldnt have wanted the board to risk that as a few fans would for abit of immediate premier league gratification.

In any case a club our size will always have to factor in relegation there is no way of guaranteeing year on year that we can finish midtable in the premier league. The board will not be so stupid as to think this 100% achievable year on year, even if their media rhetoric says otherwise.

If we do go down we''ll come up again in the future and at some point we''ll be relegated again aswell.

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I would like to see MR McNally answer this one.

I personally do not think he will see it as it is posted as any type of success at all, and as he enlightened us only a few short months ago, relegation would be worse than death.

And he is right - there is no divine right for anyone to think our current squad is strong enough to take us back immediately, or we have the financial clout because of parachute payments that will guarantee this.

You only leave to look at dudes relegated in the past few years who haven''t made it back - QPR, Birmingham, Sheffield Utd, Boackburn, Forest, Leeds to name but a few.

And it took us nine years to get back last time, with a succession of failed managers behind us.

So no I do not see a forthcoming relegation as planned, progression or success - it is complete failure, and we have been there far too many times before.

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[quote user="City 2nd"]I would like to see MR McNally answer this one.

I personally do not think he will see it as it is posted as any type of success at all, and as he enlightened us only a few short months ago, relegation would be worse than death.

And he is right - there is no divine right for anyone to think our current squad is strong enough to take us back immediately, or we have the financial clout because of parachute payments that will guarantee this.

You only leave to look at dudes relegated in the past few years who haven''t made it back - QPR, Birmingham, Sheffield Utd, Boackburn, Forest, Leeds to name but a few.

And it took us nine years to get back last time, with a succession of failed managers behind us.

So no I do not see a forthcoming relegation as planned, progression or success - it is complete failure, and we have been there far too many times before.[/quote]Nobody is saying it is.But the difference this time is that it isn''t the unmitigated financial disaster it could have been, and has been in previous relegations.

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[quote user="Hector Brockelbank"]I think the financial prudence has come by accident rather than by design. We couldn''t get who we wanted in January so kept our powder dry. The board still thought Chris was the man to keep us up and he in turn thought that the squad he had would keep us up and we could go shopping in the summer with more money than we have ever had before. Unfortunately it doesn''t look like it''s quite going to happen like that. We could still be big spenders this summer, just in a lower division. But yes the club is probably in the best financial shape it ever has been.[/quote]

I said after January came and went that in my opinion ,, the money was withheld from CH , in the belief that 1) he would definitely not be the manager 2014-2015

2)We were already looking like we were in a fight for our Premiership lives after the first half of the season .

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Don''t disagree with you Morty regarding financial aspect, as long as the club use the positives of that to get in a good manager with free hand to get in some decent players whatever the cost,capable of taking us back. My concern is that they should have spent some of those finances we have back in January in an effort to stave off what we are looking at now.

They didn''t - and I am concerned they won''t in the future.

McNally is a very financially orientated individual.

And DM makes reference to success!

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[quote user="Barclay seats 4849 the 3rd"][quote user="Hector Brockelbank"]I think the financial prudence has come by accident rather than by design. We couldn''t get who we wanted in January so kept our powder dry. The board still thought Chris was the man to keep us up and he in turn thought that the squad he had would keep us up and we could go shopping in the summer with more money than we have ever had before. Unfortunately it doesn''t look like it''s quite going to happen like that. We could still be big spenders this summer, just in a lower division. But yes the club is probably in the best financial shape it ever has been.[/quote]

I said after January came and went that in my opinion ,, the money was withheld from CH , in the belief that 1) he would definitely not be the manager 2014-2015

2)We were already looking like we were in a fight for our Premiership lives after the first half of the season .[/quote]Well done[Y]

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