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nutty nigel

We need a Holt, Iwan, Ashton or even Davies...

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Unless some miracle occurs with RVW I think the most important signing of the summer needs to be a new "Holt" or "Iwan" or even "Ashton". Or one for us old codgers a "Ron Davies". Of course the manager is important too but I honestly believe getting the right one is a bit of a lottery. Lambert was definitely the right one but I''ve always wondered just how important it was that Holty was here waiting for him. Throughout our climb up the leagues many fans wanted to dump Holty. Lambert knew better.....

 

When we don''t have a player like these we struggle. After Iwan went it took us to January to get Ashton. If we''d have got him earlier I think we''d have survived. After Ashton went Worthy tried with Earnie. Grant tried with Strihavka, Roeder didn''t bother and stuck Russell up there! Gunny knew what was needed....

 

But seriously, I don''t see how RVW is going to lead the line through 46 Championship games. In the Prem, especially away from home, our problem has been the defence never getting a break because there''s been nobody up field to hold on to the ball and help us get forward.

 

In the past we''ve often struggled to get this type of player because they cost big money and earn big wages. Hopefully as a richish championship club we won''t still be scratching about on deadline day considering plans c, d and e...

 

 

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Getting Holt in was the best bit of business - thanks to Gunny.  I''d followed his career with interest having lived up here for six years (at the time) and hearing about him from locals. He was a bit of a legend up here before he came to Norwich and it was a real excitement to get a proven goal scorer like him in.  What I didn''t realise was what a personality he was too.  We definitely lost something when he left.   

I''d agree we need a new Holt, a new Huckerby, Ashton etc etc.  It can sometimes just take one player to get things rolling - a talisman type figure.  When Hooper slammed in that first penalty and that long distant shot, you felt maybe here was someone who had the bit between their teeth. Whether his injury hampered him after that I don''t know, but he could still prove his worth at Championship level. I somehow doubt if another premiership club would be interested in him and as for going back to Celtic - why would he - surely a backward step in a career that he needs to revive.  

It is difficult to imagine any other player coming in and having the effect of a Holt or a Huckerby.   An older player such as Ricky Lambert maybe - who may be a Kevin Phillips type player and be effective for a few years yet.    

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I think the word you are looking for is ''talisman'' Nigel. And a leader on the pitch.

I agree with your post entirely.

Remember when Worthy let Iwan and Malky go on promotion? It isn''t easy to replace those characters and seldom can you just buy one in.

This is why Lambert took Holt to Villa. Clearly, Clueless and Bewilderwood seriously depressed the man here to our detriment.

Good post.

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Absolutely spot on post Nutty. I wonder who''s out there who could be our new Big Grant Holt? It won''t be easy to find another one.

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Oh stop being so sensible Nutty that kind of behaviour is not acceptable on here!!

Iwan, Holty etc are like a fans comforter when they were on the pitch you just knew everything would work out just fine. There was nothing better than seeing Iwan trot onto the pitch with 20 minutes left to go and a goal needed because you knew he would do anything to score It and more often than not did. Holty seemed to have a calming effect on the rest of the team like a big brother who would look after you and wasn''t frightened by the bullies. Even our very own and often forgotten Hucks could instill confidence in the team around him and change a game with his arrival and you are spot on that we have been seriously lacking in that dept since Holty left, I had hoped Snoddy would fill the gap but as much as I like him he is a tad selfish at times and just doesn''t fit the bill.

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I totally agree Nutty. We have been sorely lacking since he left up front, but also in example and leadership on and off the pitch.

Bassong seems to have been a poor choice as Captain, while in many ways Holt wasn''t the sharpest tool in the box, he was still inspiring on the pitch and charismatic off it. Have we seen either from Bassong this year, have we seen many, if any, leaders performances or charismatic interviews from our Captain?

Is it totally out of the realms of possibility that there may be a Holt return? Would the chance to be a part in another of our promotion pushes appeal to him? They say never go back, but he is only 33, even as a squad player you have to think having him back, even for one season, would be a lift?

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Good post

Was thinking along the same lines, it seems when the talisman goes so does all fighting spirit goes with them.

And yes he is older and probably slower but I would still have him back in a heart beat.

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Spot on Nigel. A "go to " man than can lead by example, can lift a flagging side, can encourage team mates and enthuse the crowd when things go flat.

But also as you correctly point out, someone who can give the defence a breather and hold play further up the field. Essential.

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I can remember watching MOTD when Holt came on as a substitute. In the analysis Lawrenson commented on how Holt had immediately made his presence felt on the opposition defence. He said it was as if Holt was making the statement "Right, I''m on the pitch now."

This is precisely the type of impact we have lacked from the start and from game substitutions. So I agree entirely with the OP.

We need a striker who can dominate rather than one who looks as if he can be blown over by a puff of wind.

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I am not sure that Nutty was talking about having a talisman figure, but more someone who can lead the line.

Yes a talisman is important but does not have to be a striker. Big Duncan is a good example.

But I do agree that we desperately need a striker who can hold the ball up, win a few duals in the air and have the wherewithal to make something happen from the hopeful cross into the box. That to me was the missing ingredient last year and possibly made the difference between survival and relegation. Possibly Hughton realised this which is why Elmander was brought in at the 11th hour, but either he also proved not up to it or Hughton did not feel able to use him as 1st choice when it would have meant leaving the big money signings on the bench.

OK we may like to think of the Norwich way as striving for total football, but one of our hallmarks has also been the big striker leading the line.

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Sussex - total football calls for total use of the pitch. So often we failed to use the full width of the pitch or the area near to the opposing goal line.

These were the cause of so many of our problems.

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Completely agree. I do wonder though about the two most influential men in recent Norwich history, Lambert and Holt. I think the majority of fans (were Lambert to become available) would forgive and forget and would welcome his return (ill advised or not). I wonder if the same would be true of Holty. As a number of posters have said, why do we necessarily need a ''new Holty''. Teddy sheringham and Ryan giggs have played into their 40''s. This is possible for players whose game has never relied on pace, as Holty''s hasnt. Maybe its time for him to come home. Maybe its time for both to come home.

Id have them both back if theyd come. I wouldnt expect the same level of success from them, but I honestly cant think of anyone id rather have

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I agree, proper captain needed, proper hard centre forward, LEADER.

A young player I like is Joe Garner at Preston very strong and aggressive, sign him up

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YW - there have been times when it seemed we did not even use the area of the pitch on the other side of the halfway line.

I do no not disagree with what you are saying but I am not sure that we had the quality to play in an expansive which is why we tried to keep it tight. If you play that way you need an "out" ball which we have clearly not had. It was apparent from game one against Everton.

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The impact Holt had was amazing, I used to say it was like having two players on the pitch as his overall contribution in goals, work rate, leadership, opposition scare factor, crowd anticipation etc was immense and it is almost impossible to replace. A real icon of the time he was here and Iwan too whilst very different in style still had the x factor a club like ours needs when you cant fill the side with multi million signings. Certainly RVW would never come close and even though I think Hooper will be a success in The Championship, he certainly hasnt got those special qualities. If someone gave me the choice of Holt coming back for a season or Lambert.......I would go 100% for Holt, the thing is a return is never the same as it was first time round and he is possibly now passed his sell buy date......or is he??   

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Influential figure?

I can see parallels with this message board. I found this post of Nigel''s three quarters of the way down the message board page and revived it for him after it had barely elicited a response.

Since then it has attracted good comment and Nigel has a thread for one of his rare posts (ie where he has volunteered an opinion).

Oddly even Nigel lost interest in his own offering and hasn''t come back with a response.

You see, Nigel (and others like you) football, like life is about the risk takers and the self-driven. The sheep just follow as so many of our passive supporters have allowed themselves to be led to relegation this season. Do you not think a show of discontent as at the West Brom game would have pushed the Board earlier had we not had too many of the easily lead sitting on their hands?

The truth about Lambert is he dragged the Board, Chairman and CEO along at a pace they struggled to keep up with and we replaced him with a ''yes'' man.

The Club is the fans and at Norwich we need figures who have an edge, who make waves, who think beyond.

It is no coincidence that our most influential managers like Saunders, Bond and Lambert were mavericks and I suspect that is what you are missing now, Nigel. You and a large number of our fans want to be led but see the necessity now to be led by a stronger figure.

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Why have you spun this around to be about the poster, and not the subject?

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Getting back to the original post.

Why did Holt want out?

Reading what he has said since he didn''t like the style of football they were being asked to play.

Didn''t match his style , the style that had given him success in the previous seasons.

It would not have mattered from a playing point of view who had been upfont, they would, as has happened, struggled.

From a leadership point of view, NO ONE has offered that "spark" this season but sadly reflected the managers "nice chap"  persona, hence where we are today.

Lets get a new manager in place, THEN match the proposed style with players best suited to that syle.

 

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Good post Nutty and in total agreement with you. I was however getting worried that you would have nobody to argue with until the cows come home for several pages but it appears Rudolph wants to take you on. [:P]

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i disagree... i feel we need more of a Fleck.... someone who can make something out of nothing and will just hit it!

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[quote user="jas the barclay king"]i disagree... i feel we need more of a Fleck.... someone who can make something out of nothing and will just hit it![/quote]

I thought Hooper was supposed to be that type of player? He probably would be in the Championship...

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As usual The Butler hits the nail on the head.

Let''s get the manager in place and, if the correct one is chosen, he will realise the necessity of having the correct leader on the pitch.

From a leadership point of view I certainly wouldn''t mind seeing Grant Holt back at the club in some role.

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I often wondered if after the Lambert fall-out, the board wanted somebody who wouldnt go against the grain too much, a ''yes-man'' as you put it.

Mr Nice was the boards choice, somebody who would be easy to work with, as Lambert reportedly wasnt. The consequences of the board wanting that type of character has come back to haunt them yet again.

Perhaps the board need to look at themselves and ask why they keep appointing this type of manager.

Its at times like this Im reminded of those cliched detectives on all those old movies - he''s a maverick, and those pen pushers at city hall dont like him, but by god he gets the job done!

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I care little what Rudolph has to say but I''m not surprised with his attitude as he knows full well he''s one of those I was referring to in the OP who were critics of Holty when he was here. I also remember a thread stating Holt should have gone sooner supporting McNally''s stance to the hilt. You see Rudolph will tug his forelock when it suits....

 

I wasn''t neccessarily referring to a talisman in the opening post. I was referring to a goal scoring target man. Of course such a player would end up being talismatic. I referred mainly to our recent history and Iwan, Ashton and Holt. But in that recent history there''s more proof of what we need and what we''ve missed. The very last thing the much derided Worthy did before he went was sign Dion Dublin. Having not been backed with cash for such a player he managed to find one anyway. Although ridiculed at the time Worthy brought him in Dublin was one of the main reasons we weren''t relegated sooner. It was only after he finished that we couldn''t do enough to stay in the champs and that''s because Roeder failed to replace even him and came up with the Russell experiment. I mentioned Gunny buying Holt but it shouldn''t be forgotten that before we were relegated he managed to do what Roeder failed to do and bring in such a player. So for the last few games we had Alan Lee leading the line and I can''t help but think if we''d had him all season we''d not have been relegated.

 

For whatever reason we didn''t have such a player this season. Perhaps Hootun thought we had signed one. Or perhaps he thought we could survive without one. In either case he was wrong. People suggest Hooper could perform that role next season but I have my doubts. He just doesn''t seem to be that sort of player to me. It''s not really neccessary to have a massive frame. Phil Boyer was a shorted version of a target man who could hold the ball up and score goals. But we did have the presence of MacDougall playing along side him.

 

If we can sign a goalscoring target man we will have to pay top dollar. We can''t go back to the situation we were in when Worthy first tried to sign Alan Lee abnd apparently we didn''t even offer enough money to sign his left leg.........

 

 

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Players with Holt''s karma as well as ability to lead the line and score goals don''t come around too often.

And they don''t always succeed at every club they play for.

Holt certainly made a name for himself with us and also helped the likes of Martin and Hoolahan improve their game although neither of those players of course have the same personality as Holt.

Holt also liked to be the alpha male of course and I do think that was threatened under Hughton as well as the tactics that led to him wanting out.

I look at the current squad and don''t think that many personnel would have the same affinity or respect for Holt or his like.

Most successful clubs especially in the english game do have that go to player, perhaps Gerrard the finest example.

Finding a new striker will be easier than finding a new Holt.

It would be quite easy to throw the cash at Rhodes or McCormack. But neither of those appear to be the leader or talismatic player that would inspire others just by their efforts.

So maybe we are going to have to just look for a better striker and look and a different position on the pitch for the leader just like Dunc.

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Nigel - the main difference between a target man now and a target man then is the support and outlets they had.

Grant Holt showed his feelings about the way he was being asked to play the game by making it obvious he wanted away after seeing his goal haul halved after a season under Hughton. And, of course, he had the benefit of a season''s experience in the Premiership before his diminished goal tally.

The likes of Iwan, Ashton (and Ron Davies) all had conventional wingers to provide them both with supply for goals and outlets once they had held the ball up.

To ask players new to the Premiership to play in such a poor, attack-less system that we have played this season is neither fair on the expensively priced strikers or fair on the club or supporters. The club will not truly be able to assess the worth of the players and the supporters will never be able to truly see what they are capable of.

Too many times we have seen balls played forward only to see the lone striker completely isolated with no support anywhere near him. Couple this with wingers who were playing too far inside giving him no opportunity to continue the attack.

The system of two inverted wingers has resulted in the six strikers Hughton brought in score a total of eight goals for him.

Two inverted wingers has not, does not and will not work.

All it has done is seriously damage the reputation of two strikers who, in their ambitious minds when they joined us, had outside chances of making a trip to Brazil in the near future.

Even Iwan, Ashton, and even Ron Davies, would have struggled to play in the system used this season.

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OK. But I thought we were talking about next season. Who do you think we should sign for this season then Yellow Wall? Until the window opens I think we should probably do the best with what we have....

 

 

 

 

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Agree with the OP. The thing that has been missing this year is a goal scorer who can hold the ball up and get his head on the end of crosses. Players like Holt, Iwan, Dublin, Sutton etc have always been a prevalent feature of any successful Norwich side. We always seem to struggle when we lack this kind of player. The issue is though, more than pointing out our lack of target man, who is there available. I ask this genuinely as I can only think of a handful of players that fit the bill. Danny Graham, Shane Long, Romelu Lukaku etc and of those I think we would only likely be able to entice Graham, and that would not be definite.Who do people suggest to fit this role?

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