Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
lake district canary

Next season - if we stay up.

Recommended Posts

[quote user="Le Juge"]"Not very nice, is it?"

Am I in any way morally or contractually obliged to be nice?
[/quote]

 

Implying that you''re morally or contractually obliged not to be?

 

I don''t see why we can''t all get along irrespective of how much we want Hughton to be the manager or RVW to play.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="mrs miggins"][quote user="Le Juge"]I ask myself that same question quite a lot these days mrs miggins.[/quote] 

Your point about LDC accepting hughton with open arms because he doesn''t go and see the games is valid. But for someone who does go to games for the most part such as myself, personally I can see the differences from last season, of which there are both positives and negatives. Next season will be extremely important for him. His first season was all about staying up with Lamberts players, the second is a transitional period, next season he has to get his football philosophy to work.[/quote]

So how many games do I have to go to before my opinion is valid?    10? 15? 20?   I''ve been to eight this season, does that allow me to have a 1/5 of an opinion, or does the fact I''ve seem all the others live on line (bar one), increase the validity of my opinion to maybe.......1/2 ?  2/3?    Listen, I come on here to put my views across about the club - and have seen some good and some bad performances this season - and then I look on here and see people pouring out their bile with phrases like :  "I guess that actually paying money to watch that sh*te gives you a different perspective."

No guesses to who wrote that, but there is no persepective there, no balance or reason to go along with the opinion of someone who thinks they are better because they go to more games than me or other exiles.  No - they say we are "sh*te" and that''s it.  Well if you going to every home game this season has left you feeling like that then I wouldn''t bother to go.   Away is harder to take, I would agree, but if you come on here spouting one sided drivel about our overall performances this season, then you deserve every bit of criticism you take.  Its a mixed picture, some good some bad.  If people can''t see that, regardless of whether they go to 38 games a season, or no games a season - then that is their problem - but don''t expect to get away with bleak one sided assessments unchallenged, by me or anyone else who can see beyond the end of their nose - and regardless of how many matches they actually go to. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A decent OP and it really is a big shame that others cannot go to the trouble of writing posts like this that stimulate discussion and debate rather than just waiting  to slag off those that do, some should know better to be honest as the standards on this board are unfortunately dropping, and you actually have to search hard to find a decent thread to be part of.

I agree with some of what you said LDC and disagree partly too and like everyone else on this board your opinions are as valid as anyone''s, and often far more balanced and measured....... although I do fully understand the pain experienced when you follow the team away from home particularly and witness very few decent performances and even less points won, trust me I really do...... as I have witnessed many much worse performances and results many times away over the years, and had many a miserable journey home pledging I would never go again.....but never have I got so bitter and nasty about the club, the management or with fellow supporters as now happens.   

Sure there is no doubt that this squad can improve and I am confident that they will, either under the current manager or his successor should there be one. However, I can''t see them improving enough to turn the away form to match the home form and also believe we need something like five or six quality squad additions in our evolvement to improve on whatever position we finish this season, providing its outside of the bottom three that is.

Why? It is because the money spent last summer, whilst big in terms of our club''s history, was as we can see now, actually only enough to at the very best match the previous seasons performance in terms of league position, which we are unlikely to do, albeit probably not by a huge gap. So, on that basis the squad has certainly under performed, but the margins are really very thin as we can all see when we witness the performances during the season that have been very good, and there have been some.   More consistency will come as a result of the better members of the current squad improving further together with the additions of a significant amount of additional quality and then the league position and points total improvement will probably relatively small as thats how tough the EPL is for our club right now......isnt it?

     

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
One of the reasons why it is highly likely that CH will be gone regardless is that the Board cannot go into another season with a negative vibe, each bad defeat creating more hysteria and him winning the odd game to scrape a few more weeks of employment. It will become highly corrosive, much more than it is now.

The other principal reason is that I don''t think they will know what to do about transfer budget. Do you entrust it all to a man who has nearly wasted it by risking (or achieving) relegation? Surely you''d not risk that. So without budget and new players his position becomes even more difficult.

So I think he''s gone now anyway, if he keeps us up he will still be remembered as a nice bloke who just about achieved what he needed to but wasn''t a long term option. He''s not a Roeder or Hamilton so his legacy will be preserved and he can roll into a nice Championship job. We meantime will hopefully move on and start realising some potential.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Tumbleweed"]One of the reasons why it is highly likely that CH will be gone regardless is that the Board cannot go into another season with a negative vibe, each bad defeat creating more hysteria and him winning the odd game to scrape a few more weeks of employment. [/quote]

I would agree that it is unlikely that another season like this would be acceptable to us as fans, the board - and to Hughton himself.  If he keeps us up and stays on - as I think he will -  we will need to see an improvement of the things that have been a problem this season - ie goals and away form.  

There are mitigating circumstances this season imo, not least the closeness of the league at  the bottom, the injuries we have had - but some blame to Hughton too - its a mixed picture.   More than anything, Hughton himself will want to get things right on the pitch - with more consistency and goals.  If he can''t do it in the third season of building and development of the squad - and pretty much from the start of the season - then I would anticipate a change by Christmas.   The investment in money and players that will have been done by then will ensure that Hughton has had every opportunity to  get things right.  

I still think he will be able to get things going better as the squad builds and new players are added - but there is a limit - and I believe the third season would be that limit.  If it doesn''t improve fairly obviously in the first half of next season, then the pressure will be too great not to change, but we have to get there first - we have to stay in the division first - and then build from there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
For me to change my mind about CH would require a dramatic improvement.To put some measures on this:1.  20 points from the first 10 games2.  Positive goal difference all season3.  Average of 1.5 points / game or better for the season4.  A cup winIf he delivered that I would be happy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Le Judge, return when you have something interesting and ideally adult to say!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What a load of Satoshi....you are asking for the equivalent of top six form in the first 10 games, only 8 clubs currently have a positive goal difference in the EPL,  something like top 8 form on points and something only two clubs will achieve regarding the cups..............I am not sure Mourinho would deliver that at Norwich City,,,,I think you wish will be Nakamoto''ed and you needto lower your expectations a tadge.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote user="Dubai Mark"]What a load of Satoshi....you are asking for the equivalent of top six form in the first 10 games, only 8 clubs currently have a positive goal difference in the EPL,  something like top 8 form on points and something only two clubs will achieve regarding the cups..............I am not sure Mourinho would deliver that at Norwich City,,,,I think you wish will be Nakamoto''ed and you needto lower your expectations a tadge.[/quote]The question LDC asked was not what are your realistic expectations for next season, but what would it take for those of us who would currently like to see CH replaced to change our minds.If CH achieved the objectives I stated, then I would change my mind about him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
LDC wrote:

So how many games do I have to go to before my opinion is valid? 10? 15? 20? I''ve been to eight this season, does that allow me to have a 1/5 of an opinion, or does the fact I''ve seem all the others live on line (bar one), increase the validity of my opinion to maybe.......1/2 ? 2/3? Listen, I come on here to put my views across about the club - and have seen some good and some bad performances this season - and then I look on here and see people pouring out their bile with phrases like : "I guess that actually paying money to watch that sh*te gives you a different perspective."

No guesses to who wrote that, but there is no persepective there, no balance or reason to go along with the opinion of someone who thinks they are better because they go to more games than me or other exiles. No - they say we are "sh*te" and that''s it. Well if you going to every home game this season has left you feeling like that then I wouldn''t bother to go. Away is harder to take, I would agree, but if you come on here spouting one sided drivel about our overall performances this season, then you deserve every bit of criticism you take. Its a mixed picture, some good some bad. If people can''t see that, regardless of whether they go to 38 games a season, or no games a season - then that is their problem - but don''t expect to get away with bleak one sided assessments unchallenged, by me or anyone else who can see beyond the end of their nose - and regardless of how many matches they actually go to.

-----------------

Well of course you do have an opinion and you should have an opinion. But what I would say is that you don''t have an informed opinion; there''s not much to go on other than looking at our results if you''ve only seen a few games this season. (thats not a dig, if I didn''t live in Norfolk, I wouldn''t travel to the games)

Because of this, your next point I agree with. People don''t really go into too much detail as to why they don''t want Hughton and why he is ''ruining'' the club, because if you look at our results, they are kind of what the neutral would''ve expected.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="mrs miggins"]

Well of course you do have an opinion and you should have an opinion. But what I would say is that you don''t have an informed opinion; there''s not much to go on other than looking at our results if you''ve only seen a few games this season. (thats not a dig, if I didn''t live in Norfolk, I wouldn''t travel to the games)

Because of this, your next point I agree with. People don''t really go into too much detail as to why they don''t want Hughton and why he is ''ruining'' the club, because if you look at our results, they are kind of what the neutral would''ve expected.[/quote]

But as I said,  I have seen every game live this season (except one), either at the match or online.  As I say, I have been to eight - but does that give me a fifth of a season''s informed opinion?   Or does my watching and following closely every match not count  towards having an informed opinion?   The holier than thou opinions that people have, seem to stem from the fact that because they pay to go to every home game, or even every home and away game, they think they are more "informed". I stand by my opinions as being every bit as informed as anyone''s - people can disagree with them,  but they are borne of total interest and with a strong desire to see the whole picture.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think the problem is LDC - sitting their on your Sofa watching a stream with a drink in one hand, packet of crisps in the other whilst also surfing the net doesn''t attain the same emotional and financial involvement that going to every home / away game does.

So when you watch a poor performance you come on here and go "Ah, we were poor, but we''re good every now and again. Like Cardiff and West Ham away".

The amount of times you refer to those two away games as positives in Hughton''s reign astounds me. Had you been at either - I think your opinion would be different because the fans that invested money and time to travel still saw a team with a weak spine cave in - alongside a ridiculous managerial decision to take off our two most attacking players. Which cost us the game.

So, unfortunately - your opinion, whilst your more than entitled to one, holds much less validity for me - and probably explains why so few people agree with you. Other than some bloke in Dubai. For obvious reasons.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If we stay up I think he would stay - but I think Hoolahan and Becchio would still depart, possibly with damaging insights into the relationships in the squad.

He would need some big signings and good early performances to get me onside, and the new signings would have to hit the ground running.

I like that he appears interested in bringing on the youth players, but I don''t find him inspiring.

In a nutshell, I find it hard to dislike Hughton, and like most would love it to work out for us and him. Sadly, I need to see a team and style of play evolving and improving - and I don''t see it. I am sure some do see some progress, but I don''t.

He needs a good season - not 10 games or alternate performances.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
"with a strong desire to see the whole picture"

or in reality to put up and old tosh that you think will stir thingsyes, there are those still dumb enough to swallow the bait but you must now recognise that those are becoming fewer and fewerbeing unable to put up anything that suggests you can see Hhughton constant failings has led that majority to see through your now feeble attempts to wind up othersthat you seem to spend much of your day, from early morn to the wee small hours in this pursuit suggests that there may be a screw either lose or missing somewhere - or perhaps it is part of your character, just as who ever is behind the wiz troll tries to portray him as an embittered old fantasist with a deep hatred of the club as his characterhowever, just to play along perhaps you could tell us exactly where in the Lake District you live .....the bit that is supposedly 300 mile from Norwich

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="hogesar"]I think the problem is LDC - sitting their on your Sofa watching a stream with a drink in one hand, packet of crisps in the other whilst also surfing the net doesn''t attain the same emotional and financial involvement that going to every home / away game does.

So when you watch a poor performance you come on here and go "Ah, we were poor, but we''re good every now and again. Like Cardiff and West Ham away".

The amount of times you refer to those two away games as positives in Hughton''s reign astounds me. Had you been at either - I think your opinion would be different because the fans that invested money and time to travel still saw a team with a weak spine cave in - alongside a ridiculous managerial decision to take off our two most attacking players. Which cost us the game.

So, unfortunately - your opinion, whilst your more than entitled to one, holds much less validity for me - and probably explains why so few people agree with you. Other than some bloke in Dubai. For obvious reasons.[/quote]

There are quite a few who agree with me on  quite a few things, not everything obviously, but sitting on that sofa shouting at the screen as to  why in heavens name did he take off Hooper and Redmond  at West Ham, was not unemotional.  Financially, as you mention that, I spend in my average ten games a season, approximately £1500, not to mention distance and time spent - hardly a pittance in "time and money".   If people disagree with me because of where I live, then they are wrong to do that.  I may not be "local" but my opinions are informed and valid. People can disagree with them but not question their validity. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote user="lake district canary"]If we stay up and Hughton stays, what would it take for the "hootunouters" to accept him?   I still think the vast majority of fans would soon improve their attitude to him if we start scoring more goals and improving away from home, to match the home form.   Success is measured in different ways by different people, but to me we are like a team in transition, some good things, some not so good, some elements working well, some not.  

When we are playing well - we look excellent - and look a threat - but the opposite is of course true too. So if Hughton can get that consistency, or balance right more often - and the strikers find their feet - would more people find him easier to accept? 

We are imo a player or two short of being an excellent squad - a more mature Redmond next year, a fit Fer and Howson at their best, competition for Snodgrass in terms of E Bennett or a new player to come in,  a creative midfielder to add to the mix  and it is not hard to see where progress can be made.   We''ve seen our team perform brilliantly at home to MC, Spurs and Sunderland (oh yes I forgot, it was because they were poor - ya da ya da) so we know they can do it now - just not consistently enough.   With just a small amount of tweaking - maybe even luck - we could be just a small step from real progress - and lets not forget that CH has a record of managing sides that are fluid, balanced and free-scoring.  

Its a gamble if we were to replace him - so why not gamble by giving Hughton the benefit of the doubt?   After all, if we stay up this season, where it is so tight, that will be two seasons in a row of  keeping a lesser resourced club in the most difficult league in the world.    There is no reason to suppose he couldn''t do it again for a third season - and the problem solving and growing pains that we have had these last two seasons may evolve into something really special.     

Lennon? Clarke? A.N other?  All possibles, but all gambles.   So why not gamble with what we''ve got?   After all CH knows the players, the club, the fans - and he knows we have to score more goals and be more consistent. 

[/quote]You answer your original question of what it will take to get fans to accept Chris yourself - consistency.I''ve seen plenty of awful Norwich teams over the past 20 years but very rarely one who can put in a sterling home performance where the players look switched on work together for the team and get a draw against a Champions League outfit going for the title only to get beaten by an off form West Ham team 3 days later playing like demotivated virtual strangers. Put in another great performance against a high flying Spurs team and then get stuffed 4-1 by Aston Villa on national television in an embarrassing capitulation. The main frustration comes from the knowledge that Hughton has spent big on a good team of players but so often falls short of the expectations that the team have set themselves often a week or mere days earlier.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

An interesting point re streams vs watching the game live.

At the game you feel the emotional side of things. You get the feeling of people around you and their feelings towards the manager/the team. Its why i believe its a majority who want Hughton gone at the end of the season. You get a feel for the overall atmosphere.

you just don''t get that on streams. But that doesn''t mean you can discount those who watch on streams. What you do get is replays and analysis that you don''t get at home games until MotD. So arguably those that watch on streams have a better picture of what happened during the game. Several times ive seen a red card or penalty given and thought it was a terrible decisin until ive seen a replay that night and realised i was wrong - Bassongs penalty v Stoke was never a pen, until i saw the replay for example.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Good point Rogue. I have been in both positions as both a season ticket holder and also a mostly away and stream supporter.

Frankly, confirmation bias is just as strong in both. I have sat for many hours with folk who are clearly watching an entirely different game to me and more recently get I angry at commentators that are clealy missing something/biased.

It''s all about opinions and stats and how we use them imo.

For example, our points tally and goal difference are awful as is our away record under CH. To others the emphasis is on what we should realistically expect on our budget and statue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sorry LDC, i didn''t know you watched it on a stream, I thought you watched like football focus or listened to it on the radio.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hey Lakey, what will it take for YOU to accept that you''ve not only been wrong about Chris Hughton, but you''ve made yourself look a fool with your obsessive One Direction-style child fan adoration of the guy?

"There is no reason to suppose he couldn''t do it again for a third season"!?

What? Bore the 5hite out of true fans? Waste the potential of any player with any sign of attacking ability? Continually deploy negative tactics that see us beaten from the moment we get on the pitch?

Yep, I''m sure he could do all that for a third year running. Only this time we''ll be back playing at Portaloo Road.

He''d probably even take us there and look for us to hold out for a 0.0.

Time for Hughton to fu(k right off. And time for you to do the same with your obsessive love of Clueless.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="dean"]Hey Lakey, what will it take for YOU to accept that you''ve not only been wrong about Chris Hughton, but you''ve made yourself look a fool with your obsessive One Direction-style child fan adoration of the guy?

"There is no reason to suppose he couldn''t do it again for a third season"!?

What? Bore the 5hite out of true fans? Waste the potential of any player with any sign of attacking ability? Continually deploy negative tactics that see us beaten from the moment we get on the pitch?

Yep, I''m sure he could do all that for a third year running. Only this time we''ll be back playing at Portaloo Road.

He''d probably even take us there and look for us to hold out for a 0.0.

Time for Hughton to fu(k right off. And time for you to do the same with your obsessive love of Clueless.[/quote]

Ya da ya da.  Put your toys back in the pram and lets wait and see what happens in the second half.........

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If we stay up Lakey boy then it is solely because Fulham, Cardiff and Sunderland have saved Hughton''s blushes.

All three will have gambled with their Managers and lost, so perhaps McNally would be vindicated. But albeit by default.

If we stay up it is solely going to be by luck.

Hughhton needs to go at the end of the season, regardless.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote user="dean"]If we stay up Lakey boy then it is solely because Fulham, Cardiff and Sunderland have saved Hughton''s blushes. All three will have gambled with their Managers and lost, so perhaps McNally would be vindicated. But albeit by default. If we stay up it is solely going to be by luck. Hughhton needs to go at the end of the season, regardless.[/quote]

 

I think that''s it ..relegation looms. We are 4th from bottom and will get no more points so we won''t overtake anyone. Fulham will get three points next week and will therefore be 2 points behind albeit with a worse goal difference. Therefore they will need 3 points from their last 4 games. I''m not sure who they play but I wouldn''t bet against them acheiving it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...