Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
grefstad

RVW and positioning in the box

Recommended Posts

Been looking at RvW positioning in the box when waiting for crosses.

Imho he is just lurking too much in the shadow of the defender(s).

He needs to create a better passing angle for others to reach him.

He is usually behind a defender, and rarely tries to squeeze infront, or withdraw to get a yard or two better angle for others to reach him with a pass.

Watch some clips and you will see it.

Amazed that this is not dealt with in attacking training sessions.

Agreed it is about rythm (winger releasing the pass when RvW makes the run), but watch how often RvW is unreable when Snodgrass reaches the byline. No angles, noone to hit, because RvW is hiding behind someone

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="grefstad"]Been looking at RvW positioning in the box when waiting for crosses.

Imho he is just lurking too much in the shadow of the defender(s).

He needs to create a better passing angle for others to reach him.

He is usually behind a defender, and rarely tries to squeeze infront, or withdraw to get a yard or two better angle for others to reach him with a pass.

Watch some clips and you will see it.

Amazed that this is not dealt with in attacking training sessions.

Agreed it is about rythm (winger releasing the pass when RvW makes the run), but watch how often RvW is unreable when Snodgrass reaches the byline. No angles, noone to hit, because RvW is hiding behind someone[/quote]

The delaying tactics by Snodgrass makes it very difficult for forwards to time their runs.    If he occasionally just took one touch and delivered the ball in at an angle it would - as you say - give the forwards a chance to attack.   RVW''s one goal came from a cross(shot) in from an angle, not from the byline.   From that goal alone we can see what a fabulous technique RVW has - as that ball was spinning like crazy when he headed it.    He just needs more early balls into the box - like Ollson''s on Saturday which but for the goalkeeper would have got him a goal. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I agree. When he first joined us i was impressed with his positioning, but it seems that as his confidence has drained away, so has his desire to make the space for himself and create an option.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
He is not a big man, relatively, certainly compared to some of the hulking defenders.Crosses are too late if the penalty area is full of defenders and he is marked. If you look at the goals he scored at Lisbon, most were quick movements which left him with only one or two defenders in a lot of space and with the ball on the ground. What he needs is the kind of pass which Fer produced twice for Hooper, splitting the defence for him to run onto and making the big defenders have to turn and chase him.

Doubtless the instances which Grefstad lists also happened in Lisbon, but there his team knew what was required, whereas Hughton and his midfielders never seemed to be able to do so for Norwich.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
grefstad wrote the following post at 17/04/2014 7:16 AM:

......... when Snodgrass reaches the byline...........

I must have missed that!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
His movement is far superior to any other striker we have the problem is the rest of the players are as quick thinkers as RVW.

Even Wes delayed the ball in against (Sunderland I think) which is why the keeper got to close. RVW had made his run stopped to wait for the pass and then had to start his run again.

we need to get crosses in earlier and behind defenders not swung in at them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do think it is a bit of a 2 way street in that RVW and the other strikers should have done a bit better in and around the box.

 

But I do agree with what others have said about the type of service we provide them with. We often don''t take the opportunity to put an early ball in - Snodgrass and Martin are particularly bad for it.

 

On the other flank I think it''s fair to say you generally know Olsson will look to put a ball in with a bit less fuss. Once he''s bombed into the final third you know he''ll look to swing something in.

 

Redmond is a mixed bag though. His burst of acceleration over a short distance means he can slow the play down and then leave a defender for dead (which Snodgrass can''t) but then when he''s bought himself that space you don''t know if he''ll try to run with the ball a bit more, cut it back or have a shot (which is usually high and wide).

 

And of course the inverted nature of crosses when Snodgrass and Redmond do put them in makes them hard to get on the end of. They also reduce the possibility of someone being able to follow in on the opposite flank.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think it is a bit chicken and egg regarding the service. Often Snoddy delays because the runs are not being made by the strikers.

If you look at RVW''s goals for Sporting Lisbon he certainly knows how to get into great positions but his confidence looks so shot that he no longer is gambling.

The issue of inverted wingers is a bit of a red herring as far as I am concerned. It is the new "2 up front" crusade. Quality of space creation and final delivery is far more important. In both those areas we have been seriously lacking for significant parts of this season. There were very positive signs of improvement in both at Fulham but we clearly need to improve further. Interestingly the tactics of Mr Adams gave us a lot less width than we usually had under Mr Hughton but the congestion in central areas did not result in any great increase in creative through balls but did open up space for Olsson in particular who did produce the great cross that RVW so nearly scored from but again one might think that his position was a little too advanced reducing his ability to get the power and accuracy needed to beat a keeper on fine form.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
There have been times when he has been left behind forward play and has showed no urgency to get forwards into the box. That simply isn''t good enough considering that he has often been playing as a lone striker.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote user="tom cavendish"]There have been times when he has been left behind forward play and has showed no urgency to get forwards into the box. That simply isn''t good enough considering that he has often been playing as a lone striker.

[/quote]

 

Or maybe he thought ''I''ll hold back and make a late run into the box, doing something different might just give me a chance of scoring''. Of course we could all expect him to do the same thing over and over again but them some people would describe that as being predictable.

It''s a bit like when you''re trying to get to somewhere and you realise that you''re starting from where you didn''t want to be.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="TCCANARY"]

[quote user="tom cavendish"]There have been times when he has been left behind forward play and has showed no urgency to get forwards into the box. That simply isn''t good enough considering that he has often been playing as a lone striker.[/quote]

Or maybe he thought ''I''ll hold back and make a late run into the box, doing something different might just give me a chance of scoring''. Of course we could all expect him to do the same thing over and over again but them some people would describe that as being predictable.

It''s a bit like when you''re trying to get to somewhere and you realise that you''re starting from where you didn''t want to be.

  [/quote]At times he hasn''t made any run at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="tom cavendish"][quote user="TCCANARY"]

[quote user="tom cavendish"]There have been times when he has been left behind forward play and has showed no urgency to get forwards into the box. That simply isn''t good enough considering that he has often been playing as a lone striker.

[/quote]

Or maybe he thought ''I''ll hold back and make a late run into the box, doing something different might just give me a chance of scoring''. Of course we could all expect him to do the same thing over and over again but them some people would describe that as being predictable.

It''s a bit like when you''re trying to get to somewhere and you realise that you''re starting from where you didn''t want to be.

  [/quote]

At times he hasn''t made any run at all.
[/quote]

 

So sometimes he''s made an early run, sometimes he''s made a late run and sometimes he''s made no run at all. I''d call that part of the infinite variety of playing football, I think you''ll find all players do it.

 

It''s a bit like when you suddenly find yourself watching and not taking part, you quickly realise that you''re not omnipresent and soon join in again.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Pretty bored of this ''he''s too good for the players around him'' thing. I suspect we got wolfy and then our recruitment drive went a bit wrong after Fer, Olsson and Redmond joined. I bet we were after at least a couple more.

How is it Snodgrass can assist Holt and co, Fer can assist the likes of Graziano Pelle but RVW is far too good to even understand what slop his midfielders dish up for him!

If that''s the case, get Becchio back in the side, Snoddy, Howson and Johnson have plenty of experience assisting him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote user="grefstad"]Been looking at RvW positioning in the box when waiting for crosses. Imho he is just lurking too much in the shadow of the defender(s). He needs to create a better passing angle for others to reach him. He is usually behind a defender, and rarely tries to squeeze infront, or withdraw to get a yard or two better angle for others to reach him with a pass. Watch some clips and you will see it. Amazed that this is not dealt with in attacking training sessions. Agreed it is about rythm (winger releasing the pass when RvW makes the run), but watch how often RvW is unreable when Snodgrass reaches the byline. No angles, noone to hit, because RvW is hiding behind someone[/quote]

 

This is the classic behaviour of someone short on confidence, he''s subconsciously scared of getting the ball and not being able to do what is exepcted of him. It happens all over the pitch, players who are short on confidence don''t want to let people down so they put themselves in positions where they won''t get tha ball, that way they can say that they''re not getting the ball instead of fu*king it up when they do.

Unfortunately this isn''t really something that can be addressed in traditional training, you can bang them in all day against training opponents, come to a real world match and it all changes. The only things that would help would be him scoring a proper goal (a lucky defelction or somesuch wouldn''t really help, when you''re down it won''t help, you''ll know it was lucky and unintended so does nothing to lift your funk), or a lot of work with a sports psychologist or similar, perhaps he needs a bit of hypnotherapy to get over the problems (on a side note, has that ever been used in professional football? it could be quite a useful tool)...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote user="cornish sam"]

[quote user="grefstad"]Been looking at RvW positioning in the box when waiting for crosses. Imho he is just lurking too much in the shadow of the defender(s). He needs to create a better passing angle for others to reach him. He is usually behind a defender, and rarely tries to squeeze infront, or withdraw to get a yard or two better angle for others to reach him with a pass. Watch some clips and you will see it. Amazed that this is not dealt with in attacking training sessions. Agreed it is about rythm (winger releasing the pass when RvW makes the run), but watch how often RvW is unreable when Snodgrass reaches the byline. No angles, noone to hit, because RvW is hiding behind someone[/quote]

 

This is the classic behaviour of someone short on confidence, he''s subconsciously scared of getting the ball and not being able to do what is exepcted of him. It happens all over the pitch, players who are short on confidence don''t want to let people down so they put themselves in positions where they won''t get tha ball, that way they can say that they''re not getting the ball instead of fu*king it up when they do.

Unfortunately this isn''t really something that can be addressed in traditional training, you can bang them in all day against training opponents, come to a real world match and it all changes. The only things that would help would be him scoring a proper goal (a lucky defelction or somesuch wouldn''t really help, when you''re down it won''t help, you''ll know it was lucky and unintended so does nothing to lift your funk), or a lot of work with a sports psychologist or similar, perhaps he needs a bit of hypnotherapy to get over the problems (on a side note, has that ever been used in professional football? it could be quite a useful tool)...

[/quote]

 

So in previous posts he''s been criticised for coming deep to get the ball and then sometimes not making runs into the box but you maintain that he doesn''t want the ball and he''s deliberately putting himself in positions where he won''t get it, could it be that he''s just playing football and you''re over analysing things?

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="TCCANARY"][quote user="cornish sam"]

[quote user="grefstad"]Been looking at RvW positioning in the box when waiting for crosses. Imho he is just lurking too much in the shadow of the defender(s). He needs to create a better passing angle for others to reach him. He is usually behind a defender, and rarely tries to squeeze infront, or withdraw to get a yard or two better angle for others to reach him with a pass. Watch some clips and you will see it. Amazed that this is not dealt with in attacking training sessions. Agreed it is about rythm (winger releasing the pass when RvW makes the run), but watch how often RvW is unreable when Snodgrass reaches the byline. No angles, noone to hit, because RvW is hiding behind someone[/quote]

 

This is the classic behaviour of someone short on confidence, he''s subconsciously scared of getting the ball and not being able to do what is exepcted of him. It happens all over the pitch, players who are short on confidence don''t want to let people down so they put themselves in positions where they won''t get tha ball, that way they can say that they''re not getting the ball instead of fu*king it up when they do.

Unfortunately this isn''t really something that can be addressed in traditional training, you can bang them in all day against training opponents, come to a real world match and it all changes. The only things that would help would be him scoring a proper goal (a lucky defelction or somesuch wouldn''t really help, when you''re down it won''t help, you''ll know it was lucky and unintended so does nothing to lift your funk), or a lot of work with a sports psychologist or similar, perhaps he needs a bit of hypnotherapy to get over the problems (on a side note, has that ever been used in professional football? it could be quite a useful tool)...

[/quote]

 

So in previous posts he''s been criticised for coming deep to get the ball and then sometimes not making runs into the box but you maintain that he doesn''t want the ball and he''s deliberately putting himself in positions where he won''t get it, could it be that he''s just playing football and you''re over analysing things?

 

 

 

[/quote]

 

The coming deep ''looking for the ball'' arguement doesn''t necessarily contradict the hiding arguement, he''s still avoiding the risk of failing to convert a chance. As I say though, the hiding tends to be a subconscious thing, the coming deep is a conscious decision, trying to get out of his rut but often trying too hard and so not being able to do anything effective and making mistakes further reducing his confidence.

As I say, the solution can not be found through training alone, he needs to find his Flow again and coming deep to get the ball is not part of a striker like RVW''s Flow.

 

I honestly think that RVW is naturally a very good striker, for whatever reason it hasn''t worked out for him with us and he is now in a self defeating spiral, possibly kick started by trying to play through the injury. The summer break and getting away from football for a few weeks or a month may help and he comes back refreshed, then again it might not and he needs to go somewhere easier to rebuild himself mentally and make another attempt at a top league in a few years...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

"The coming deep ''looking for the ball'' arguement doesn''t necessarily contradict the hiding argument".

 

I think you''ll find it does unless you''ve redefined what ''contradict'' means, you can''t hide from something and go looking for it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The difference between Holt and RvW in terms of being assisted is that Holt is best at attacking the ball, whereas RvW is best at being ''attacked'' with the ball... if you get me.

Snodgrass tends towards higher, hanging crosses (see reference- every corner he''s ever taken) that we all know Holt loved to get up and attack. Wolf doesn''t have the physicality to fight off centre-halves and needs pace and direction on the delivery to find him before defenders can react.

I would be intrigued to see a set up of:

Fer Howson

Bennett Redmond

Snodgrass

van Wolfswinkel

Giving us two speedy wingers for a pacey supply line without sacrificing the attacking threat Snodgrass brings.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you read my whole arguement then you''ll see that subconsciously hiding from chances isn''t mutually exclusive from trying to project oneself presence on a match.

He''s low on confidence and doesn''t back himself to score so he ''hides'' from chances, stands in the shadow of defenders, doesn''t offer runs into the box, etc. However, he knows that he has to work hard and is trying to contribute so he drops deep, ''looking for the ball'' in non-threatening areas of the pitch, he''s trying to force the issue but trying to force it in the wrong places. He is in effect trying too hard, he''s trying to impose himself on games but the way that he needs to be behaving isn''t something that can be forced, it''s lower level than that, hence the ''it can''t be fixed in training''. Look at the body language of Torres in his first season at Liverpool versus the first season at Chelsea and you''ll see what I mean, head up looknig for the ball playing with instinct for L''pool, shoulders slumped avoiding eye contact, making runs too late and throwing hands up in the air in the first season at Chelsea. We unfortunately know have an RVW more like Chelsea Torres than L''pool Torres. (Not that I''m saying RVW is anywhere near the quality of Torres or will be a £50m striker when we sell him, just that Torres is a far more extreme example of what I''m trying to describe).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I have been thinking about this all week since Fulham Game. RVW is never anywhere near goalkeeper he seems to be lurking round the edge of penalty area - Seems strange.

On a positive he works and moves a lot off the ball and was the main reason for the result 3 weeks ago at home. Why Hughton dropped him after the away game - I just couldn''t understand. Woz it all because of his Petulance at Swansea when he got subbed ??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...