Should Neil Adams get the job full time?

[NCFC for life 1993- 0]

I''m listening to the canary call and hearing so much positive. Canary call is enjoyable to listen to for a change! Neil Adams has done so much in the short space of time. Who thinks he should get the job full time regardless of what league we are in next season?

OTBC! I''m now excited about watching the united game next week and not expecting the usual boring predictable rubbish under Hughton. Under Adams anything can happen!

[William Darby 0]

If someone from his family does a FB campaign it''ll be the kiss of death.

[Kanadyan Kanary 121]

For me, it''s too early to decide.  It''s great to see the positivity among the players and the significant change in attitude, which we have seen over the last two games.  I know we have lost but the performance has been so much better.  That may be due to the new managr syndrome and luckily we have time to make a decision on Adms future, once the season is over.  Certainly impressed so far.

[tracker 0]

[quote user="Private Frazer"]If someone from his family does a FB campaign it''ll be the kiss of death.[/quote]

How right you are bor

[kick it off 1,948]

If we maintain the level of performance until the end of the season, then I would be fully behind Neil getting the job regardless of whether we go down or not.

He took on the poisoned chalice of these 5 games and realistically, we were always likely down. I don''t think the results should determine his future, I think that had we put in these kind of performances against lesser teams, we would be in a much more comfortable position right now.

If we continue to fight, and play with passion and pride, then I would give him the permanent job, let him rebuild the team and see where we go from there.

[A Gay Schoolboy 0]

Lets wait and see

[mrs miggins 0]

Hell no, Terrible tactics in the first half. Its like he realised that liverpool were good after half time. I''m not gonna say, if we had hughton we would''ve got a point or nicked it, just like people can''t say we would have lost 6-0. The fact that the he doesn''t know how to use this team effectively against liverpool is absolutely shocking. Why play Redmond up front? It didn''t work last week and in a game where we need to actually have a shape and keep our shape, we play like that. That first half was all down to Neil Adams; too much space between defence and midfield.

Warz gon orn Neyul?

[Iwans Big Toe 312]

[quote user="mrs miggins"]Hell no, Terrible tactics in the first half. Its like he realised that liverpool were good after half time. I''m not gonna say, if we had hughton we would''ve got a point or nicked it, just like people can''t say we would have lost 6-0. The fact that the he doesn''t know how to use this team effectively against liverpool is absolutely shocking. Why play Redmond up front? It didn''t work last week and in a game where we need to actually have a shape and keep our shape, we play like that. That first half was all down to Neil Adams; too much space between defence and midfield.

Warz gon orn Neyul?[/quote]So when''s your "bring back the Hoot" campaign gonna start then Mrs M?

[# 0]

YES. [Y]

[Jonzey 0]

I''m pretty sure the guy has lost his first two games?

Why does that warrant a full term contract OP?

[Dubai Mark 0]

It is definately too early to tell and there is certainly some truth in what MM says about the first half tactics, and also not having a CB on the bench, whether some on here like it or not. BUT, he certainly has the players playing for him and thats crucial, and means we still have a half chance of getting some points from the remaining games.

Its a huge decision though, and one where the emotion really needs to be removed by the board when they do finally make a long term decision, in the meantime we must all back him 100% until the end of the season of course, goes without saying.

[mrs miggins 0]

Iwan''s Big Toe wrote the following post at 20/04/2014 2:39 PM:

So when''s your "bring back the Hoot" campaign gonna start then Mrs M?

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I don''t base an opinion on hindsight. I try to look at the reality, I know most of you think Adams is a good manager and is doing a good job. But the fact is: We''ve lost 2 out of 2. Terrible in the first half today, Terrible in the second last week. Not good enough to perform for less than half the match when we are scrapping for our lives. Like I said before, its no point to say ''oh if we had hughton in charge'' ... etc etc because that can work either way, I don''t base my opinions on hindsight

[mrs miggins 0]

It didn''t look like they were playing for him in the first half D.Mark

[Alexander 0]

[quote user="mrs miggins"]Hell no, Terrible tactics in the first half. Its like he realised that liverpool were good after half time. I''m not gonna say, if we had hughton we would''ve got a point or nicked it, just like people can''t say we would have lost 6-0. The fact that the he doesn''t know how to use this team effectively against liverpool is absolutely shocking. Why play Redmond up front? It didn''t work last week and in a game where we need to actually have a shape and keep our shape, we play like that. That first half was all down to Neil Adams; too much space between defence and midfield.

Warz gon orn Neyul?[/quote]

I am not advocating him getting the job full time, thats a decision for the summer. But I have to defend (considering how rarely I post, its a moment I feel needs saying) you cannot say that he did nothing until half time. Niel saw the issue of Redmond up top, and more important, Gerrard getting the space. He switched Snoddy and Redmond out wide, sticking Howson further forward. The space came (and maybe he was partially responsivble, maybe fear) due the team not fully pressing. Hooper was doing less then nothing in the first half to aid the press, so Snoddy and Howson went possibly too far to cover, causing the space. The tactics had their flaws, but mainly due to the way Liverpool play.

[Kanadyan Kanary 121]

[quote user="mrs miggins"]It didn''t look like they were playing for him in the first half D.Mark[/quote]So you think we can wash the stain left by Hughton over the last two seasons, in just two weeks.  Now that would we be impressive.  What is clear is that we are heading in the right direction, simply by performing for one half of the game.  There were so many games under Hughton that the players didn''t turn up at all.

[John 0]

[quote user="mrs miggins"]Hell no, Terrible tactics in the first half. Its like he realised that liverpool were good after half time. I''m not gonna say, if we had hughton we would''ve got a point or nicked it, just like people can''t say we would have lost 6-0. The fact that the he doesn''t know how to use this team effectively against liverpool is absolutely shocking. Why play Redmond up front? It didn''t work last week and in a game where we need to actually have a shape and keep our shape, we play like that. That first half was all down to Neil Adams; too much space between defence and midfield.

Warz gon orn Neyul?[/quote]Miggins seems to have dramatised the issues here, but there were certainly some frailties in our play that we cumbersomely slow in rectifying, whether it was our ill-advised, and poor, execution of zonal marking with a defence that is liable to get done for pace and skill, especially against players like Suarez and Sterling that are capable of utilising space to the fullest and tremendously dangerous when cutting inside, or our direct football to and from the wings, that on those occasions Liverpool were exposed ended with our players wrongly opting to cross the ball into an under-staffed offensive play in the box rather than probe and keep play on the deck, as is in-keeping with the strengths of our strikers. In summary the players didn''t compliment the formation,  and the formation didn''t compliment the systems of play, which ultimately ended in a set of evident rudimentary errors in the overall performance that resulted in us being more hopeful on the opposition''s weaknesses than clinical in expressing our strengths.However for all of that we stuck with it and displayed a passionate performance, if somewhat nervous on the ball, and ended the game with a respectful scoreline.Tactics are a difficult issue to press Adams on at the moment however, only just having entered the fold with bearly any time to impose his style on the team, but for a change in the broad ethos preferring attack to defence. How he copes with the remaining games will bring small, but valuable clarity, on the matter.I have no doubt if he keeps us up he will be deserving of another year in the job. However if we go down, there will need to be some sort of in-depth analysis or inquest into the developments of our play post-Hughton to determine whether that option would truly benefit us in the long run.

[Helsinki canary 240]

its too early to say, i would give him a first team coach position with reasonable confidence alongside an older experienced manager

[mrs miggins 0]

''mainly due to the way liverpool play''

Exactly, surely as a manager you look at The best team in the leagues strengths and how you can stop them playing the football that they have been doing this season. We had a week to prepare for this game and it needed half the game to make him realise this. I honestly don''t know what he was thinking. Its as if he had a total disregard of how Liverpool play. He sorted it out in the second half making the obvious change (and credit to him for doing that) but its a lot to ask your team to come back against the best team in the country, and we nearly did. (which makes it worse in a way because of how we originally set up)

[mrs miggins 0]

John wrote the following post at 20/04/2014 2:59 PM:

Tactics are a difficult issue to press Adams on at the moment however, only just having entered the fold with bearly any time to impose his style on the team, but for a change in the broad ethos preferring attack to defence. How he copes with the remaining games will bring small, but valuable clarity, on the matter.

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Its mainly the shape that was the problem without the ball, they had far too much space to hurt us. This is how I feel when Hughton took Redmond off at half time against the Hammers

[Alexander 0]

I should have maybe gone into that a little better, though I get your point we did some of the things to sort out their style in the first half. As I said, getting Howson further forward was crucial, as he limited Gerrard and increased the pressure. The difficulty came from Fer and Johnson, along with the centre backs confusion with Sterling, Suarez and Coutinho. No manager has come up with a solution to how they interchange (throw in Sturridge in other games) and move around, its impossible within their style, which is why the pressing was used as it was.

The first goal showed it, though someone should have closed it down, it becomes who, the midfield who are pressing, the centre backs who need to not allow the space for Suarez, the wing backs maybe, but its still difficult. He got it wrong at first, but he switched it round once realised had gone wrong, which is a good sign for any manager. The simple fact, the way they are playing cannot sometimes be dealt with, and try as we like it didn''t happen today

[Iwans Big Toe 312]

[quote user="mrs miggins"]Iwan''s Big Toe wrote the following post at 20/04/2014 2:39 PM:

So when''s your "bring back the Hoot" campaign gonna start then Mrs M?

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I don''t base an opinion on hindsight. I try to look at the reality, I know most of you think Adams is a good manager and is doing a good job. But the fact is: We''ve lost 2 out of 2. Terrible in the first half today, Terrible in the second last week. Not good enough to perform for less than half the match when we are scrapping for our lives. Like I said before, its no point to say ''oh if we had hughton in charge'' ... etc etc because that can work either way, I don''t base my opinions on hindsight[/quote]If we''d had Alex Ferguson in charge we would have probably lost 2 out of 2. With Adams in charge they may have been terrible in the first half, but at least he had a plan b and he was able to change it and have a positive influence on things in the second half, something I doubt Hootun and the 2 stooges would have been capable of doing. Under Hootun there were many occasions over the last 2 seasons where we were not good enough for both halves, let alone one and would more than likely have been terrible in the first and second halves this week and last week, as we had been in most of the last 10 games under him. Finally, you seem to have an objection to Adams based purely on the fact that he has been promoted from within and has no senior management experience. If we were to use that as a prerequisite when selecting a Norwich manager Ken Brown, Dave Stringer, Mike Walker and Nigel Worthington would never have got the job at City. This club is often most successful when we promote from within and hire someone who understands about the uniqueness of NCFC and does try and sign a bunch of has-been or were-never-really-quite-good-enough mercenaries, but will look to players who wish to play for the club rather than just earn their £25k a week. I don''t need hind sight to figure that out buddy.

[Iwans Big Toe 312]

..............does NOT try and sign........

[John 0]

[quote user="mrs miggins"]John wrote the following post at 20/04/2014 2:59 PM:

Tactics are a difficult issue to press Adams on at the moment however, only just having entered the fold with bearly any time to impose his style on the team, but for a change in the broad ethos preferring attack to defence. How he copes with the remaining games will bring small, but valuable clarity, on the matter.

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Its mainly the shape that was the problem without the ball, they had far too much space to hurt us. This is how I feel when Hughton took Redmond off at half time against the Hammers[/quote]I entirely agree. Playing the diamond formation, in my opinion, is perfectly fine on the ball as our strikers are only going to benefit from play through the centre - almost solely relying on patient crossing to players like Hooper and van Wolfswinkel in a league that prides itself on a large collection of defenders that excel in aerial battles was an amateur-like mistake that persisted throughout this season under Hughton. Off the ball however our midfield are completely exposed by the smallest amount of width, and you''re right in suggesting that resulted in far too much space being afforded to their attackers.Playing against Liverpool required fluid transitions in the formation from central/wide when on/off the ball. Sticking to the same formation while off the ball was bound to expose, and therefore hurt us, today.

[mrs miggins 0]

I don''t dislike Adams because he''s from ''within'' the club and has no experience. I have grown a dislike for him so far after watching the games (mostly Fulham, in which we were woeful for the second half).

The fact is, when you talk about what alex ferguson or Hughton would have done in these last 2 games, its b0llocks. You don''t know what they would have done, (which kind of annoys me when other posters on other threads use it as an argument). I can only say what I''ve seen. The Fulham game he played Redmond upfront which turned out to be a bad decision, but instead of learning from it, he does the same bl00dy thing again. Against Fulham, it was the same old story with playing well (like against Cadiff for example) but not scoring, well at least for the first half. Yet I don''t blame him for this aspect, its more the mentality they had in the second half of the Fulham game.

Again, its like he didn''t do his homework at all against Liverpool, we played to their strengths. Not good enough before it was too late. You could say Hughton would have done this and that, and make it seem as if Adams is better, or would have done better, but the fact is we don''t know-either way. All i''m basing my opinion on is what I see. If you thought that the first half looked like good way to play i really don''t know what.

[mrs miggins 0]

(in response to Iwans big toe)

[Guest]

We can only judge Adams on 5 games unfortunately.

We can''t base it on the strength of the players because he didn''t assemble this squad.

I think he has tried to alter the tactics and play far more positively. I don''t think he has the players who necessarily fit those tactics. And I do think he could have dispensed with the inverted wingers which clearly has not worked.

And his substitution of Hooper for RVW was just like for like. But I won''t criticise him for the two losses. It wasn''t his fault Bradley went to sleep for the first two and a lucky deflection for the third put the game out of reach.

But I do think it was testimony to his tactics in the 2nd half that led to Liverpool playing three centre backs.

And surely both our goals make it obvious that crosses have to be taken seriously and put right to the middle or back post. We can''t blame even RVW if the ball doesn''t get to him although we can when it does and he misses a sitter.

So on reflection, I see Adams as far more creative than Hughton. But I can''t say I can make my mind up about next season.

Having said that, I do believe that picking the right manager is the hardest job in football and one that owes a lot to luck.

[Iwans Big Toe 312]

[quote user="mrs miggins"]I don''t dislike Adams because he''s from ''within'' the club and has no experience. I have grown a dislike for him so far after watching the games (mostly Fulham, in which we were woeful for the second half).

The fact is, when you talk about what alex ferguson or Hughton would have done in these last 2 games, its b0llocks. You don''t know what they would have done, (which kind of annoys me when other posters on other threads use it as an argument). I can only say what I''ve seen. The Fulham game he played Redmond upfront which turned out to be a bad decision, but instead of learning from it, he does the same bl00dy thing again. Against Fulham, it was the same old story with playing well (like against Cadiff for example) but not scoring, well at least for the first half. Yet I don''t blame him for this aspect, its more the mentality they had in the second half of the Fulham game.

Again, its like he didn''t do his homework at all against Liverpool, we played to their strengths. Not good enough before it was too late. You could say Hughton would have done this and that, and make it seem as if Adams is better, or would have done better, but the fact is we don''t know-either way. All i''m basing my opinion on is what I see. If you thought that the first half looked like good way to play i really don''t know what.[/quote]You''ve come to that decision after 180 minute of football under Adams. Good to see you''re giving him a chance and aren''t just bitter about being wrong on Hootun. [;)]

[mrs miggins 0]

Why do people keep talking about Hughton? I don''t understand it...unless you think by saying that i''m wrong will annoy me? I don''t actually know how you can be wrong or right in saying he''ll keep us up or he''ll take us down. Its just not an argument. Tbh, I wish I could''ve been proven wrong or right, but its the fact that its not worth discussing thats annoying, its not valid.

[Phillip J Fry 0]

Adams got his tactics wrong for the first 20 minutes IMO. However his use of the diamond was not as a ridiculous decision as it seems. I think that Adams wanted to match Liverpool formation too formation, to try and deny the space between the lines they usually get. He wanted Snodgrass to get tight to Gerrard and to try and disrupt his crucial role of starting the attacks and wanted to deny their attacking midfielder (whomever it may have been) the space he usually receives between the lines. 

Three things went wrong with this. Firstly, Liverpool started 4-3-3, with Coutinho and Sterling playing tight to Suarez. This eliminated the point of playing a diamond which was a reactionary move to try and counter Liverpool''s diamond. As soon as Adams noticed this, he should''ve made the change.

Secondly, the Norwich players once again looked very uncomfortable when trying to defend in a diamond. I think this is because that most of the players have either never played in a diamond or have not played in one for a very long time. The defensive shape was overall very poor and the mobile front three of Coutinho, Suarez and Sterling were constantly finding space to exploit. 

Thirdly, we didn''t press Gerrard. Gerrard played extremely deep at times (almost as a third centre back) and was allowed for the majority of the 1st half to spread the play and dictate the attack from his deep role. I think the failure to press came from a lack of confidence in our defensive shape. Players are far more confident pressing the ball when they know that the defensive shape behind them is very good. This was not the case when we played the diamond and I think Snodgrass was more reluctant to press Gerrard as he felt that the team would be left exposed unless he was in position because of our poor defensive shape.

Anyway, now that the negatives are out of the way, Lets focus on Adams response. Adams made a change in formation relatively quickly, around 20 minutes in, but this was too late to prevent Liverpool scoring a crucial second goal and firmly establishing their lead. But the change in formation (Fer joined Johnson as a deep midfielder, Howson pushed up, Redmond moved left, Snodgrass right) did have the desired effect and stopped Liverpool having free reign when attacking. Our defence and midfield looked more comfortable and the only issues remaining really were overall passing accuracy and a failure to press Gerrard.

The 2nd half was a fantastic performance from Norwich as those last tactical tweaks were made. Hooper and Howson looked far more confident pressing Gerrard as they knew that the defensive shape behind them was secure enough to handle having two players pressing high up the pitch. Liverpool''s defence looked a lot shakier with Hooper and Howson pressing them and their insistence on playing out of defence caused them to be put in a few sticky situations. Norwich passed the ball better and looked to advance down the flanks and provide crosses to attack. Howson was crucial in this. His movement of the shoulder of the defenders and out wide caused Liverpool all sorts of problems and allowed Norwich to establish themselves in good crossing positions. Unfortunately, the quality wasn''t as good as it should have been but it''s important to note that our two goals both came from crosses and this is clearly indicative of an overall gameplan. Liverpool probably had more of the ball and they still looked dangerous on the counter (as their 3rd goal showed) but the fact they were relying on counter-attacks clearly shows that Norwich were actually forcing them on the back foot and how rare is that against teams that are top?

Overall, Adams got his starting tactics and formation wrong. He probably left it a little too late to make the change to a 4-2-3-1 and this allowed Liverpool to establish a 2 goal lead. However, his willingness to change formation earlier than most managers would and his half-time instructions to press Gerrard higher and play with more width clearly show (to me at least) someone with an understanding of tactics and a willingness to adapt those tactics to suit the situation. This willingness to change was something that was lacking under Hughton. If Hughton made the right tactical choice to start off with, then we would usually get something out of the game, but his inability to change these tactics often meant that if you went a goal down, your chances of even attempting a comeback were slim. Adams deserves credit for his tactical switches that meant Norwich were very close to getting something out of a game they looked dead and buried in with 11 minutes gone. 

[kick it off 1,948]

Miggins: Very easy to say "No-one can say what Hughton would have done because they don''t know". The reality is, we watched the negative $hite he served up for two years, whilst we cannot know with absolute certainty what would have happened, it is fairly simple to make an educated guess based upon a wealth of experience of watching Hughton''s abject negativity and watching the team roll over and die with no fight or passion under his charge. If we had gone 2-0 in 12 minutes under Hughton, we would have very little chance of even threatening a draw. We have scored more than once on just 4 occasions this season before today, and have collected just FOUR points this season from games where we have conceded the first goal. I think it can be said with confidence (albeit not certainty) that we would have been dead and buried after 12 minutes under Hughton.

Hughton''s record vs Liverpool:

5-2 L

5-0 L

5-1 L

Adams record:

3-2 L