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YellowNets1901

Well, he did say we'd struggle....

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Mentality. Ambition. Two key words that sum up what has been lacking since Hughton took charge here.

At the start of the season Chris Hughton said he thought we''d "struggle", even after spending £30m on better quality players.

He also said (to Geoff Shreeves on Sky), the night before our 0-0 draw at home to Cardiff, that "there was a limit to what could be achieved by the cub this season", and that it was his job to "dampen expectations of the fans and players". Why? Why dampen expectations?

The same day as our draw with Cardiff, Southampton beat Fulham 3-0. After the game, Pochettino said ''There''s no limit to what these players can achieve''.

If you do what you''ve always done, you''ll get what you''ve always got. Hence why we are getting very much the same as last season. The words Hughton uses, STRUGGLE, LIMIT TO WHAT CAN BE ACHIEVED, must filter down to the players. It shows a lack of belief in them. A lack of belief in himself.

Some would say he''s being realistic but as Sir Fergie said in his book: It''s all about ambition. Some people are happy with a holiday 20 miles down the road, some are happy just to sit in their back garden, some want to go to the moon. It''s all about ambition.

Our mentality is wrong. We have a limit on our ambitions. Our attitude is wrong. Completely wrong.

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I understand what you''re saying. Equally, there are people who believe they can be pop stars and go on something like the X-Factor where they are laughed off stage.

Ambition is only one key component of success.

No one can deny that Hughton seems overly negative and does not inspire belief, which is not a good characteristic. I did not expect us to be comfortable this season, so perhaps that is why I am not hugely disappointed. Would you equate that with lack of ambition?

I fully believe Norwich can become an established Premiership team, but progress will take time without a huge bankroll. But, I cannot ever see us regularly competing with the top 4 without huge investment. Ferguson''s book is pretty irrelevant, as football is no longer as much of a level playing field.

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[quote user="Chip20"]Did those people who fancied a holiday to the moon get it?

Just asking, like.[/quote]I did.I won''t be going next year though, I didn''t enjoy the holiday, no atmosphere.Sorry.

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[quote user="morty"][quote user="Chip20"]Did those people who fancied a holiday to the moon get it? Just asking, like.[/quote]

I did.

I won''t be going next year though, I didn''t enjoy the holiday, no atmosphere.

Sorry.
[/quote]

Iwould have thought no beer would be more of a problem Morty.

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[quote user="Kathy "]

[quote user="morty"][quote user="Chip20"]Did those people who fancied a holiday to the moon get it? Just asking, like.[/quote]I did.I won''t be going next year though, I didn''t enjoy the holiday, no atmosphere.Sorry.[/quote]

Iwould have thought no beer would be more of a problem Morty.

[/quote]That too[;)]

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[quote user="I.S."]I understand what you''re saying. Equally, there are people who believe they can be pop stars and go on something like the X-Factor where they are laughed off stage.

[/quote]

If you went on stage on X-Factor though and said "i''m alright, but i''m going to dampen expectations now and tell you I might well struggle in this competition" they would hand you some happy pills and tell you to do one!

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Morty, the money helped Fergie but surely even you must see that, money aside, he was really quite brilliant.

Deluded X-factour contestants are quite different to the ambition and mentality I''m talking about. After all, we are already in the Premier League. Whereas some of these deluded X-factour contestants either haven''t long left their padded cells or are on their way to the padded cells.

It''s my opinion that constantly telling yourself, players, media etc that you will struggle and how we need to dampen expectations is only going to filter down and become what the club is, what the players are, what the manager is. A bunch of strugglers. Spending £30m showed ambition, but once the final player came through the door last summer, that ambition stopped.

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[quote user="Kathy "]

Iwould have thought no beer would be more of a problem Morty.

[/quote]On a similar note, I saw advertised in one of the Sunday supplements a holiday on one of these fancy Orient Express -type trains complete with on board cocktail and champagne bar to.....Iran.I''m sort of thinking  aloud here, but rather guess that the cuba libres, singapore slings, manhattans and glasses of Moet might just be a bit thin on the ground on that particular trip ?

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I kind of get his point. I personally don''t think there are many in the Southampton starting 11 who wouldn''t walk in to our team. And we have all seen that there indeed WAS a limit to what they could achieve this season! We spent a lot of money, but so did everyone else. We already had the cheapest squad in the Premier League, so to talk of ''dampening'' expectations was sensible. Especially in a season where for some reason, a bunch of fans seemed to think that spending £30million should see us pushing for Europe. I don''t thik he ever said ''we are probably going to be relegated this year''. Rather the idea was to point out that avoiding relegation was still the main priority. It''s really the equivalent of Mourinho and Rogers telling everyone who will listen that their respective sides won''t win the league. Par for the course in management these days.

 

 

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[quote user="YellowNets1901"]Mentality. Ambition. Two key words that sum up what has been lacking since Hughton took charge here.

At the start of the season Chris Hughton said he thought we''d "struggle", even after spending £30m on better quality players.

He also said (to Geoff Shreeves on Sky), the night before our 0-0 draw at home to Cardiff, that "there was a limit to what could be achieved by the cub this season", and that it was his job to "dampen expectations of the fans and players". Why? Why dampen expectations?

The same day as our draw with Cardiff, Southampton beat Fulham 3-0. After the game, Pochettino said ''There''s no limit to what these players can achieve''.

If you do what you''ve always done, you''ll get what you''ve always got. Hence why we are getting very much the same as last season. The words Hughton uses, STRUGGLE, LIMIT TO WHAT CAN BE ACHIEVED, must filter down to the players. It shows a lack of belief in them. A lack of belief in himself.

Some would say he''s being realistic but as Sir Fergie said in his book: It''s all about ambition. Some people are happy with a holiday 20 miles down the road, some are happy just to sit in their back garden, some want to go to the moon. It''s all about ambition.

Our mentality is wrong. We have a limit on our ambitions. Our attitude is wrong. Completely wrong.[/quote]

I agree with the OP. Hughton shouldn''t really let on to anyone what the unpalatable truth is, despite it being true. A white lie such as Pochettino said is to breed confidence and a no fear attitude. And you''d have to say it worked.

Man Utd is perhaps the last word on how much difference a manager makes. Good players don''t become terrible players overnight...

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 Some would say he''s being realistic but as Sir Fergie said in his book:

It''s all about ambition. Some people are happy with a holiday 20 miles

down the road, some are happy just to sit in their back garden, some

want to go to the moon. It''s all about ambition.
Ferguson was not an instant success, nor a management genius, he was nearly sacked in 89 and only saved by the now infamous Mark Robbins goal at Wembley.In his first 5 seasons at Old Trafford they finished 11th, 2nd, 11th, 13th and 6th

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[quote user="YellowNets1901"] It''s all about ambition.

Our mentality is wrong. We have a limit on our ambitions. Our attitude is wrong. Completely wrong.[/quote]

Nothing wrong with having ambition but once it outweighs your sense of reality you are doomed to a life of disappointment. We may have an ambition to win the Premier league, the FA Cup and the Champions League but realistically we all know that it isn''t going to happen. Being realistic is not the same as lacking ambition it is adjusting our hopes to what is possible. An FA or League Cup is possible and so is a mid table Premier league finish but the rest is beyond even the wildest of dreams. There are half a dozen big clubs who will always be big clubs and we aren''t, and are never going to be one of them.I hope for Premiership survival. I hope to see us regularly perform well in this league. I hope to one day see another cup win at Wembley and I hope never again to see this club nearly go out of business. If people see those as limited ambitions then all I can say is that I am more than happy to have limited ambitions.

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The thing I don''t understand is when managers say things like "these group of lads can achieve anything", "we are coming here to win and try and get all three points", "we can beat anybody on our day" etc etc.

When this proves not to be true, are they then loudly rounded on by supporters for their empty promises? Because I''ve never noticed it if true.

Where as when a manager says things that are perceived to be negative (and could quite rightly be called realistic) he is attacked when they come true.

So whats the point? Why not be overtly positive, who knows that might rub off on the crowd.

But when your manager seems uncertain of your own teams ability to perform, whether likely to be proved right or wrong, that is definitely going to cause concern with supporters which can ultimately mean they put pressure on the guys on the pitch when things don''t go right.

I have had leaders who were unconfident in themselves and their team of workers ability to do the job at hand, and expressing that publicly was never helpful unless it brought about solutions from others or the team, which does not really translate across to football as it means to fix it someone needs to challenge or ignore his orders.

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One of the best opening posts I''ve seen for many a while, sums up exactly my thoughts on the current situation.

It''s a shame some of the usual suspects have to dismiss it with their usual diatribe.

If the Club and manager had shown this lack of ambition four years ago we''d still be down in League One

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The human brain is hard wired to achieve, it must be or we would never learn to walk and talk and some of us can even do both at the same time.

The brain also moves toward its dominant thoughts, which esentially become its goals.

You will no doubt have heard the expression "Be careful what you wish for."

The subconscious is also unable to accept/process the reverse of an idea, if you tell a child ''not'' to knock a glass over, what frequently occurs?

Didier Drogba was quoted as saying that 90% of his game existed in his head, Jack Nicjlaus was quoted as saying visualisation was 40% of his success,

Put all this together and your words and thoughts become a self fulfilling prophecy,

So saying ''we will struggle", "there was a limit to what could be achieved by the cub this season", "it''s my job to dampen expectations of the fans and players".

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The human brain is hard wired to achieve, it must be or we would never learn to walk and talk and some of us can even do both at the same time.

The brain also moves toward its dominant thoughts, which esentially become its goals.

You will no doubt have heard the expression "Be careful what you wish for."

The subconscious is also unable to accept/process the reverse of an idea, if you tell a child ''not'' to knock a glass over, what frequently occurs?

Didier Drogba was quoted as saying that 90% of his game existed in his head, Jack Nicjlaus was quoted as saying visualisation was 40% of his success,

Put all this together and your words and thoughts become a self fulfilling prophecy,

So saying ''we will struggle", "there was a limit to what could be achieved by the cub this season", "it''s my job to dampen expectations of the fans and players" and "there was a limit to what could be achieved by the cub this season", will most likely become self fulfilling prophecies.

Oh they already have, which goes to prove the point.

Does saying the opposite, in a more ambitous and positive style guarantee success, no, does it make success far more likely, absolutely.

Is beating the top four realistic, yes, we and other teams do it, so it can be done, however perhaps the best way of framing the rhetoric is to say something along the lines of "We are capable of winning and believe we can and will give our all to do so." If the payers are constantly told "It is a tough place to go" then their brains will set out to prove them right and they will make it a tough place to go.

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Wigan won the FA Cup last season.

They have just got to the Quarter Final again.

They spent 8 years in this league and are in with a chance of coming straight back up.

They punched well above their weight with the smallest wage bill year after year, never spending huge amounts on players, with the smallest revenue in the league every season (possible exception the Blackpool season).

The reason that they did so well is the belief and ambition that they have to succeed, all starts at the very top with Dave Whelan.

And don''t say they are "bankrolled" by Whelan, he is as tight as a nuns vagina, they owe him some money but they made a profit last season and for years before that too.

Ambition is critical.

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They were bankrolled by Whelan though.He lent them 48 million, and converted the loan into equity in 2011.Makes Delia''s contribution look pretty meagre.

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"Makes Delia''s contribution look pretty meagre"

We don''t need Dave Whelan to make her contribution look meagre now do we.

When was the last time she opened her purse strings? It was Foulger that last bailed us out. Perhaps they should hand him the keys.

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[quote user="Monty13"]The thing I don''t understand is when managers say things like "these group of lads can achieve anything", "we are coming here to win and try and get all three points", "we can beat anybody on our day" etc etc.

When this proves not to be true, are they then loudly rounded on by supporters for their empty promises? Because I''ve never noticed it if true.

Where as when a manager says things that are perceived to be negative (and could quite rightly be called realistic) he is attacked when they come true.

So whats the point? Why not be overtly positive, who knows that might rub off on the crowd.

But when your manager seems uncertain of your own teams ability to perform, whether likely to be proved right or wrong, that is definitely going to cause concern with supporters which can ultimately mean they put pressure on the guys on the pitch when things don''t go right.

I have had leaders who were unconfident in themselves and their team of workers ability to do the job at hand, and expressing that publicly was never helpful unless it brought about solutions from others or the team, which does not really translate across to football as it means to fix it someone needs to challenge or ignore his orders.[/quote]

You''re exactly right. If the manager is overtly positive, and the team fails to match his statements (ie he says we can aim for europe, but we end up 12th), the manager is not criticised for over-doing the positivity - because everyone knows you have to talk your team up and make them feel like they can beat anyone.

But if a manager is too openly realistic, and the team fall short of the standard expectation for the club - ie for Norwich to finish around 11th/12th, but we end up 17th, or worse - then it is something that can be criticised. So always better to project ambition and positivity down from the top, as it is a kind of mental forcefield.

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It''s ultimately a self-fulfilling prophecy, if Hughton keeps saying we will struggle etc then that is what we will do.

It is a lot easier to influence people in a negative way and bring them down, than it is to influence them in a positive way, and sadly Hughton is in the former.

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