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morty

Next season.

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So then, it pans out like this.We stay up in, I don''t know, 13th

place. Ricky has found his shooting boots and starts to score. The

summer comes, there isn''t a better manager available, we buy a few

decent players, and CH is still here at the start of the next season.Do you get behind him? New season, new slate?Or do you carry over this seasons grudges (actually like some did from last season)?

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If that were to all happen then of course we''d get behind him. We''d see he''d learnt from his errors and become a better manager. Whether it does happen though is a different matter.

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[quote user="Jimmy Smith"]If that were to all happen then of course we''d get behind him. We''d see he''d learnt from his errors and become a better manager. Whether it does happen though is a different matter.[/quote]I wouldn''t say that was a given, for all Jimmy.

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[quote user="morty"]So then, it pans out like this.

We stay up in, I don''t know, 13th place. Ricky has found his shooting boots and starts to score. The summer comes, there isn''t a better manager available, we buy a few decent players, and CH is still here at the start of the next season.

Do you get behind him? New season, new slate?

Or do you carry over this seasons grudges (actually like some did from last season)?
[/quote]

 

Yes, given the citeria you''ve just said Mr Morty we should initially back him 100%, it would be childish and spiteful to do otherwise.

But there''s alot of ''ifs'' in your post.

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Perhaps not with some who''ve nailed their colours to the mast, but most would ease off. Pressure comes and goes according to results. All the fans wanted this season was a comfortable year where relegation didn''t come into thinking. Hughton is performing below this remit therefore he''s under pressure.

Football fans are a fickle creature. That time between 3 and 5 on a Saturday (or whenever) is the time it''s generally accepted for all fans CEO''s and royalty down to unemployed and homeless to vent their spleen and extrovert their opinions. As soon as we start winning again, jobs a good un! Look at Tevez when he came back into the fold after 6 months off and scored a hattrick against us. The fans were right back with him!

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[quote user="Jimmy Smith"]Perhaps not with some who''ve nailed their colours to the mast, but most would ease off. Pressure comes and goes according to results. All the fans wanted this season was a comfortable year where relegation didn''t come into thinking. Hughton is performing below this remit therefore he''s under pressure.

Football fans are a fickle creature. That time between 3 and 5 on a Saturday (or whenever) is the time it''s generally accepted for all fans CEO''s and royalty down to unemployed and homeless to vent their spleen and extrovert their opinions. As soon as we start winning again, jobs a good un! Look at Tevez when he came back into the fold after 6 months off and scored a hattrick against us. The fans were right back with him![/quote]Sensible stuff[Y]I agree re fickle, but I do wish that people, in the cold light of day, could at least briefly take the emotion out of things, and look at the situation a bit more objectively.All things considered, just staying up this season (when placed in context) should be seen as a success.

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[quote user="morty"][quote user="Jimmy Smith"]Perhaps not with some who''ve nailed their colours to the mast, but most would ease off. Pressure comes and goes according to results. All the fans wanted this season was a comfortable year where relegation didn''t come into thinking. Hughton is performing below this remit therefore he''s under pressure.

Football fans are a fickle creature. That time between 3 and 5 on a Saturday (or whenever) is the time it''s generally accepted for all fans CEO''s and royalty down to unemployed and homeless to vent their spleen and extrovert their opinions. As soon as we start winning again, jobs a good un! Look at Tevez when he came back into the fold after 6 months off and scored a hattrick against us. The fans were right back with him![/quote]Sensible stuff[Y]I agree re fickle, but I do wish that people, in the cold light of day, could at least briefly take the emotion out of things, and look at the situation a bit more objectively.All things considered, just staying up this season (when placed in context) should be seen as a success.[/quote]I am all for calm objectivity (which is why I have never said Hughton should be sacked this season) and context. But there is context and context. If, for the sake of argument, we were to stay up but with only 38 points (which is exactly where we are headed) then - as a director - I would wonder quite why we were six points down on the previous season and  a whole nine points down on the season before. The explanation - or lack of one - for such a slide would be one of the factors in deciding whether I voted to keep Hughton or sack him.

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[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="morty"][quote user="Jimmy Smith"]Perhaps not with some who''ve nailed their colours to the mast, but most would ease off. Pressure comes and goes according to results. All the fans wanted this season was a comfortable year where relegation didn''t come into thinking. Hughton is performing below this remit therefore he''s under pressure.

Football fans are a fickle creature. That time between 3 and 5 on a Saturday (or whenever) is the time it''s generally accepted for all fans CEO''s and royalty down to unemployed and homeless to vent their spleen and extrovert their opinions. As soon as we start winning again, jobs a good un! Look at Tevez when he came back into the fold after 6 months off and scored a hattrick against us. The fans were right back with him![/quote]Sensible stuff[Y]I agree re fickle, but I do wish that people, in the cold light of day, could at least briefly take the emotion out of things, and look at the situation a bit more objectively.All things considered, just staying up this season (when placed in context) should be seen as a success.[/quote]I am all for calm objectivity (which is why I have never said Hughton should be sacked this season) and context. But there is context and context. If, for the sake of argument, we were to stay up but with only 38 points (which is exactly where we are headed) then - as a director - I would wonder quite why we were six points down on the previous season and  a whole nine points down on the season before. The explanation - or lack of one - for such a slide would be one of the factors in deciding whether I voted to keep Hughton or sack him.[/quote]You don''t consider the amount we spent (as an overall budget, including wages) the subsequent quality of the squad, and the fact we actually haven''t been very lucky re injuries, as adding some context?

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[quote user="morty"][quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="morty"][quote user="Jimmy Smith"]Perhaps not with some who''ve nailed their colours to the mast, but most would ease off. Pressure comes and goes according to results. All the fans wanted this season was a comfortable year where relegation didn''t come into thinking. Hughton is performing below this remit therefore he''s under pressure.

Football fans are a fickle creature. That time between 3 and 5 on a Saturday (or whenever) is the time it''s generally accepted for all fans CEO''s and royalty down to unemployed and homeless to vent their spleen and extrovert their opinions. As soon as we start winning again, jobs a good un! Look at Tevez when he came back into the fold after 6 months off and scored a hattrick against us. The fans were right back with him![/quote]Sensible stuff[Y]I agree re fickle, but I do wish that people, in the cold light of day, could at least briefly take the emotion out of things, and look at the situation a bit more objectively.All things considered, just staying up this season (when placed in context) should be seen as a success.[/quote]I am all for calm objectivity (which is why I have never said Hughton should be sacked this season) and context. But there is context and context. If, for the sake of argument, we were to stay up but with only 38 points (which is exactly where we are headed) then - as a director - I would wonder quite why we were six points down on the previous season and  a whole nine points down on the season before. The explanation - or lack of one - for such a slide would be one of the factors in deciding whether I voted to keep Hughton or sack him.[/quote]You don''t consider the amount we spent (as an overall budget, including wages) the subsequent quality of the squad, and the fact we actually haven''t been very lucky re injuries, as adding some context?[/quote]Morty, you are not stupid, so why do you often post as if you were? Which bit of  "one of the factors" did you not understand"? There are all sorts of aspects to be taken into context at the end of the season. Another, since you mention the budget would be - as a director responsible to my shareholders - whether I thought the £8.5m for RvW - on the manager''s recommendation - had been money well or badly spent.

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Are you able to discuss things without the need to be a bit sanctimonious at all?

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I agree with PurpleCanary.I would also want to have a clear target set for the manager as to where we expected to be after say 12 games.If he didn''t meet the target, that would, for me, trigger the process of finding a replacement.

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At the moment 13th place is looking like a pipe dream, and it would take something special, and consistent, over the next few games to achieve that. As we have lacked consistency all season, it looks more like a grind to achieve 17th.

If this is what we achieve, it will be a massive sigh of relief, but I for one will be no more convinced than previously that Hughton has what it takes to be a Premiership manager, even if he has shown one or two small improvements this season.

If we achieved 13th place by some means, I might have to think again, but my view is that we need a different manager to take us on to the next stage of consolidation.

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[quote user="Salopian"]At the moment 13th place is looking like a pipe dream, and it would take something special, and consistent, over the next few games to achieve that. As we have lacked consistency all season, it looks more like a grind to achieve 17th.

If this is what we achieve, it will be a massive sigh of relief, but I for one will be no more convinced than previously that Hughton has what it takes to be a Premiership manager, even if he has shown one or two small improvements this season.

If we achieved 13th place by some means, I might have to think again, but my view is that we need a different manager to take us on to the next stage of consolidation.[/quote]13th place is precisely one point away, so its hardly a pipe dream.

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I don''t hold any grudges against CH but simply have a view that he is not doing a particularly good job. For me it is pretty much a question of whether the manager is creating a team which looks better than the sum of it''s parts. If things start to click into gear then I''d be delighted to buy into the CH long term masterplan and admit that I got it wrong. It may take more than simple survival and RVW scoring though since, just as I don''t lurch from "in" to "out" game by game, nor will I change view unless a pattern emerges which suggests a longer term improvement. I''m not sure if I have answered the question but I hope it explains a little of my perspective.

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I would say we stay up in 16/17 slot and neither of our main strikers score more than 4 more between them. The fans and the board will both want a change and the board will not trust in Hughton to spend any significant money

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Have to say I entirely agree with Purple Canary, who seems to express my own views a lot better than myself - guess i''ll let him keep posting and i''ll sit back and watch!

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[quote user="PurpleCanary"]If, for the sake of argument, we were to stay up but with only 38 points (which is exactly where we are headed) then - as a director - I would wonder quite why we were six points down on the previous season and  a whole nine points down on the season before. The explanation - or lack of one - for such a slide would be one of the factors in deciding whether I voted to keep Hughton or sack him.[/quote]
To expand on this. In terms of whether Hughton would be kept on if we stayed up, if I was an experienced  director (Michael Foulger, say) I would think my objective balance sheet would look something like this.For retention.1) Survival is the prime objective, so survival equals success. And survival trumps all other considerations. Survival is a fact. Everything is opinion or conjecture.2) No matter which financial measures might be used it is a fair guess Norwich do not this season figure higher than 17th in most of them. So 17th would at least equal parity with financial expectations.3) Stability, a continuity of aims, is a prized asset. Norwich city went through an era of semi-enforced short-termism a few years ago that frankly was a bit of a nightmare, so why should we risk unenforced short-termism?4) There is not an obviously better - and available - British candidate out there. Going, that is, by the names I as a director have seen mentioned on the Pink ''Un messageboard. As for an overseas candidate it would need to be someone with an outstanding record, and probably with experience in more than one country. Again, I have seen no-one feasible mentioned.For sacking (based on the assumption that we carry on to finish with fewer than 40 points and some way lower than 11th).
1) Our chairman said he expected a top-ten finish and I have to assume he meant that.2) Our chairman said he expected a top-ten finish and I didn''t think for a moment he meant it, but he sure as hell didn''t mean 16th.3) Our points total of (say) 38 is 6 down on last season. Put that together with the disappointing second half of last season and I fear we may be on a slide that will carry on next season.4) Our net transfer spend in the summer was the ninth highest in Europe (which is partly why the chairman talked about a top-ten finish) and by that financial measure we certainly have under-performed. And £8.5m on a striker who looks - to be charitable - not quite up to it? Myself and my fellow directors would have to think very hard about trusting Hughton''s judgment again after such an expensive mistake.5) Because our finances are always going to put us close to the bottom of the Premier League rich-list we need a manager who will wring the absolute most out of a comparitively cheaply assembled squad. That means a tactically-savvy manager, and I have serious doubts about Hughton on that score. Based on McNally going out of his way to criticise the use of 4-4-2 I suspect he does too.

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It''s totally pointless to speculate on next season until we know what division we will be playing in.

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[quote user="morty"]Are you able to discuss things without the need to be a bit sanctimonious at all?[/quote]

Reckon you should "meet him for a drink"...

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[quote user="Bor Bor Bor"][quote user="morty"]Are you able to discuss things without the need to be a bit sanctimonious at all?[/quote]

Reckon you should "meet him for a drink"...[/quote][URL=http://s869.photobucket.com/user/mortymccarthy/media/640232a712_zps57437961.gif.html][IMG]http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab257/mortymccarthy/640232a712_zps57437961.gif[/IMG][/URL]

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I don''t agree with your argument, PC, because the margins are so small.

As has frequently been pointed out, our position last year was decidedly iffy until a couple of unexpectedly good results at the end of last season (particular against ManC).

This year, a couple of extra goals in the right games would have given us another 4 points, putting us in 10th position.

When there are so few points between the bottom 10 teams, the league position as a measure of performance is problematic. You''d really need to break into the top half to show genuine improvement, & I think we''re - in all probability - a couple of seasons of any chance of that, whoever manages us.

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[quote user="ron obvious"]I don''t agree with your argument, PC, because the margins are so small.

As has frequently been pointed out, our position last year was decidedly iffy until a couple of unexpectedly good results at the end of last season (particular against ManC).

This year, a couple of extra goals in the right games would have given us another 4 points, putting us in 10th position.

When there are so few points between the bottom 10 teams, the league position as a measure of performance is problematic. You''d really need to break into the top half to show genuine improvement, & I think we''re - in all probability - a couple of seasons of any chance of that, whoever manages us.[/quote]Ron, I am not at the moment arguing either way. Just imagining what would be the pros and cons in the mind of, say, Michael Foulger at the end of the season. I entirely take your point about fine margins. With two games to go last season we still could have been relegated. Instead we finished 11th.Which is why I have always taken more account of points rather than league position. And if, for the sake of argument, we did survive but with a markedly lower points total than last season''s 44 then I, in my Michael Foulger mode, would be worried about that. It would be a factor.to be weighed with and against all the others.

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