Hughton is gone tonight

[Winning 25 24]

[quote user="CanaryOne"]This club is such a joke they will probably sack him with 4 games to go , laughing stock does not even come close .[/quote]

We''ll at least that would give the new manager some time to get to know all the players better. He''d then be able to decide who to keep, ready for next season. 

[Herman 9,717]

He''s gone!

[SeattleCanary 0]

[quote user="Herman "]He''s gone![/quote]

He is?

[morty 0]

[quote user="Herman "]He''s gone![/quote]To the shops to buy a newspaper?

[Herman 9,717]

[:D]

[SeattleCanary 0]

[quote user="Herman "][:D][/quote]

teasing git!

[Herman 9,717]

Sorry geezer. Early morning mischief. Don''t think it''s going to happen this week. As others have constantly said, "till seasons end". 

[Mr Jenkins 0]

Whats your prediction Herman, stay up or go down

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

[quote user="ricardo"][quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="ricardo"][quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="ricardo"]It will eventually be correct,but maybe not this week.I still think he will see the season out but it''s only a guess.[/quote]If Hughton is sacked before the end of the season then I''m an eccentric millionaire living on a sun-drenched tax-haven island...[/quote]Either you are hedging with the "eccentric" bit, or you are certain that he will then, Purple?[/quote]Hah! I am afraid, ricardo, my accountants have advised me not to admit anything to do with my financial status, eccentric or otherwise. But they have allowed me to confirm that I don''t expect Hughton to be sacked before May 11 (if then) because there is no serious replacement at the club and and no-one outside the club is going to take on what might be a very short-lived appointment.Of my widely-admired Three Rules For Changing A Manager Mid-Season, all three would be shattered if we ditched him now. We are where we are, and will be, and I speak as a Hughton Supporter who turned Anti- (but not an Outer) when I saw his line-up for the West Ham home game.[/quote]Very sensible and I agree with the conclusions. It never looked likely despite continual calls for his head every other Monday morning.I think he will see it out and our survival is very much touch and go. Lose next week and we can all look forward to 4 extra home games next season. Painful to swallow but it''s not like it hasn''t happened before nor that it''s likely to happen again at some time in the future.Like it or not we have always been a yoyo team at best but having said that I will remain positive while there is still hope.[/quote]The only scenario for change that makes any sense to me (imagining myself in the boardroom) is as follows. Yesterday''s wholesale team changes look to me and my fellow directors as if Hughton really has (as Parma indicated elsewhere) lost control and is thrashing around desperately. This is confirmed by the next match or two. Then sacking Hughton and promoting Adams (on the strict understanding that it is only temporary) in the hope of a dead-cat bounce might be work. If so, and we survived, then Adams would be thanked for his services and advised, with our blessing, to look for a managerial job lower down the leagues.Then we could, at our leisure, sift through the various candidates. And the same process would apply if Adams didn''t keep us up, or if Hughton had not been sacked and we had got relegated (and possibly even if he had kept us up).But a change now to a permanent appointment would potentially lumber us with the wrong choice. Almost by definition there are going to be se serious question-marks (as with, for example, Steve Clarke)  over anyone who is available now and willing to take the job .

[City 2nd 191]

He is still here then?

Which means most peoples thinking is correct, he will be here until the seasons end - unless of course next weeks results forces someone''s hand!

[Herman 9,717]

[quote user="Brienne"]Whats your prediction Herman, stay up or go down[/quote]

It all comes down to the Mackems. Win and we should stay up. Just. Lose and that is it.

That''s if yesterday''s mess hasn''t dissolved all remaining confidence the players have. It sure has mine.

 

 

[The Great Mass Debater 1,078]

CH - We showed character to get back into the game at the end.

No Chris, Southampton gave us two goals on a plate from inexplicable calamatous defending, totally out of the blue and we couldnt believe our luck.

That is quite different. Until then we hadnt had a shot on target in the whole game. At least in the spirit of fairness we decided to give them one back in return to ensure daylight robbery didnt take place...

[Mr Jenkins 0]

Yep, have to win the two home games, I hope he throws caution to the wind and just goes for it, based on recent form though I cant see us doing it. I have a feeling that even he doesnt believe in his own system now, so where does that leave the players?

[ricardo 7,347]

Has he gone yet

[Rogue Baboon 0]

[quote user="Herman "]

[quote user="Brienne"]Whats your prediction Herman, stay up or go down[/quote]

It all comes down to the Mackems. Win and we should stay up. Just. Lose and that is it.

That''s if yesterday''s mess hasn''t dissolved all remaining confidence the players have. It sure has mine.

 

 

[/quote] what if we draw though?

surely at this stage it is just as bad as a defeat

[SWP = Poor Mans Ruel Fox!! 0]

[quote user="Rogue Baboon"][quote user="Herman "]

[quote user="Brienne"]Whats your prediction Herman, stay up or go down[/quote]

It all comes down to the Mackems. Win and we should stay up. Just. Lose and that is it.

That''s if yesterday''s mess hasn''t dissolved all remaining confidence the players have. It sure has mine.

 

 

[/quote] what if we draw though?

surely at this stage it is just as bad as a defeat

[/quote]

 

No because if we lose to Sunderland that gives them 3 points and they are currently below us in the league, whereas if we draw they still stay the same amount of points behind us as at the start of the game.  Although obviously we really want to win to increase that gap!

[spudgfsh 0]

The term "must win" has been bandied about a lot in relation to Norwich matches this season but that is exactly what is required.

win and we''re 7 points above sunderland with two of their games in hand being Man City and Liverpool. we''ll be and feel a lot safer.

Lose and we''re 1 point above Sunderland with a three game season. we''d need to get points from those games at the end.

The draw would make the table just as bad as all of the teams around us will start to creep ahead of us.

The thing is that we may be able to stay up with as few as 7 more points but I wouldn''t want to risk it...

[nutty nigel 7,509]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"]The only scenario

for change that makes any sense to me (imagining myself in the boardroom) is as

follows. Yesterday''s wholesale team changes look to me and my fellow directors

as if Hughton really has (as Parma indicated elsewhere) lost control and is

thrashing around desperately. This is confirmed by the next match or two. Then

sacking Hughton and promoting Adams (on the strict understanding that it is only

temporary) in the hope of a dead-cat bounce might be work. If so, and we

survived, then Adams would be thanked for his services and advised, with our

blessing, to look for a managerial job lower down the leagues.Then we

could, at our leisure, sift through the various candidates. And the same process

would apply if Adams didn''t keep us up, or if Hughton had not been sacked and we

had got relegated (and possibly even if he had kept us up).But a change

now to a permanent appointment would potentially lumber us with the wrong

choice. Almost by definition there are going to be se serious question-marks (as

with, for example, Steve Clarke)  over anyone who is available now and willing

to take the job .[/quote]

 

Still can''t get my head around yesterday''s team selection. The only logical explaination I can come up with is that players were rested for next week and the game pretty much sacrificed except in the forlorn hope that the players coming in would be motivated enough to spring a surprise. If that''s the case I don''t agree with it. There''s never any telling where PL points could come from and every game is an opportunity to get them. Over the last 6 games we have won 5 points and 4 of them were from games against Man City and Spurs. If we''d written those games off we''d be staring relegation ion the face now.

 

 

Is there such a thing as a dead cat bounce though? The Swansea moggie managed to beat Cardiff and nobody else. And the WBA cat surely had rigor mortis before their win yesterday. The way I see it we will have the same players for these last games whoever is the manager. And their motivation will be principally about money and the fact they are on divisional pay. Considering what I''ve seen from the modern day professional footballer their wallets and professional pride should motivate them more than a ranting Di Canio or whoever.

 

 

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"]The only scenario

for change that makes any sense to me (imagining myself in the boardroom) is as

follows. Yesterday''s wholesale team changes look to me and my fellow directors

as if Hughton really has (as Parma indicated elsewhere) lost control and is

thrashing around desperately. This is confirmed by the next match or two. Then

sacking Hughton and promoting Adams (on the strict understanding that it is only

temporary) in the hope of a dead-cat bounce might be work. If so, and we

survived, then Adams would be thanked for his services and advised, with our

blessing, to look for a managerial job lower down the leagues.Then we

could, at our leisure, sift through the various candidates. And the same process

would apply if Adams didn''t keep us up, or if Hughton had not been sacked and we

had got relegated (and possibly even if he had kept us up).But a change

now to a permanent appointment would potentially lumber us with the wrong

choice. Almost by definition there are going to be se serious question-marks (as

with, for example, Steve Clarke)  over anyone who is available now and willing

to take the job .[/quote]

 

Still can''t get my head around yesterday''s team selection. The only logical explaination I can come up with is that players were rested for next week and the game pretty much sacrificed except in the forlorn hope that the players coming in would be motivated enough to spring a surprise. If that''s the case I don''t agree with it. There''s never any telling where PL points could come from and every game is an opportunity to get them. Over the last 6 games we have won 5 points and 4 of them were from games against Man City and Spurs. If we''d written those games off we''d be staring relegation ion the face now.

 

 

Is there such a thing as a dead cat bounce though? The Swansea moggie managed to beat Cardiff and nobody else. And the WBA cat surely had rigor mortis before their win yesterday. The way I see it we will have the same players for these last games whoever is the manager. And their motivation will be principally about money and the fact they are on divisional pay. Considering what I''ve seen from the modern day professional footballer their wallets and professional pride should motivate them more than a ranting Di Canio or whoever.

 

 

[/quote]I didn''t see the game, nutty, so I have no real opinion on the selection.. As to a dead cat bounce, I am not normally in favour of late managerial changes (and only early ones mid-season under some circumstances). But as others have said the situation is so tight that even one dead-cat-bounce win might make the difference between relegation and staying up.If, and I have no idea, Hughton''s influence on the team is now actually negative then I guess it is possible anyone else might invigorate things for a short while.

[Graham Paddons Beard 2,424]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"]

The only scenario for change that makes any sense to me (imagining myself in the boardroom) is as follows. Yesterday''s wholesale team changes look to me and my fellow directors as if Hughton really has (as Parma indicated elsewhere) lost control and is thrashing around desperately. This is confirmed by the next match or two. Then sacking Hughton and promoting Adams (on the strict understanding that it is only temporary) in the hope of a dead-cat bounce might be work. If so, and we survived, then Adams would be thanked for his services and advised, with our blessing, to look for a managerial job lower down the leagues.

Then we could, at our leisure, sift through the various candidates. And the same process would apply if Adams didn''t keep us up, or if Hughton had not been sacked and we had got relegated (and possibly even if he had kept us up).

But a change now to a permanent appointment would potentially lumber us with the wrong choice. Almost by definition there are going to be se serious question-marks (as with, for example, Steve Clarke)  over anyone who is available now and willing to take the job .
[/quote]

 

Still can''t get my head around yesterday''s team selection. The only logical explaination I can come up with is that players were rested for next week and the game pretty much sacrificed except in the forlorn hope that the players coming in would be motivated enough to spring a surprise. If that''s the case I don''t agree with it. There''s never any telling where PL points could come from and every game is an opportunity to get them. Over the last 6 games we have won 5 points and 4 of them were from games against Man City and Spurs. If we''d written those games off we''d be staring relegation ion the face now.

 

 

Is there such a thing as a dead cat bounce though? The Swansea moggie managed to beat Cardiff and nobody else. And the WBA cat surely had rigor mortis before their win yesterday. The way I see it we will have the same players for these last games whoever is the manager. And their motivation will be principally about money and the fact they are on divisional pay. Considering what I''ve seen from the modern day professional footballer their wallets and professional pride should motivate them more than a ranting Di Canio or whoever.

 

 

[/quote]

I didn''t see the game, nutty, so I have no real opinion on the selection.. As to a dead cat bounce, I am not normally in favour of late managerial changes (and only early ones mid-season under some circumstances). But as others have said the situation is so tight that even one dead-cat-bounce win might make the difference between relegation and staying up.

If, and I have no idea, Hughton''s influence on the team is now actually negative then I guess it is possible anyone else might invigorate things for a short while.
[/quote]

 

 

As I said on an earlier thread I favour the "thrashing around" argument. To have rested players makes no sense. As mentioned resting them could backfire, they might get injured in training, or catch a cold. I think CH is at a loss to know what to do next .

 

I do believe in the dead cat bounce. I would do it JUST for the one or two wins. There are as many instances of it working as not. The financial position of staying in the prem throw all convention of stability and balance out of the window. You could offer a manager a million pounds just to keep us up, and there would a queue along Carrow Road into Morrisons car park. Such are the riches, or otherwise , of staying up. I also favour "positive change" in business. This is where the Club is at. This isn''t Mickey Mouse Land, this is a £100m t/o club. A place that NCFC has never been before.

 

On the subject of divisional pay, but I doubt if players that have joined since promotion are on such conditional clauses. I might be wrong.

[Warren Hill 0]

If the players aren''t on divisional contracts then it''s the board that needs sacking, not Hughton.

[whoareyou? 0]

You will be wrong, GBP.You can''t run any business without a safety net for if things go wrong these days.Some may well have clauses saying they can be sold for £x if we are relegated but there will be some special provisions for all players in place in case we are relegated. There is no way the club will go back to the debt burden it had before and McNally has already gone on record as stating that.

[ricardo 7,347]

The Board are not stupid. They have budgeted for the possibility of relegation. This was all explained at the last Fans Forum.

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

[quote user="whoareyou"]You will be wrong, GBP.You can''t run any business without a safety net for if things go wrong these days.Some may well have clauses saying they can be sold for £x if we are relegated but there will be some special provisions for all players in place in case we are relegated. There is no way the club will go back to the debt burden it had before and McNally has already gone on record as stating that.[/quote]On May 29, 2013, McNally said:“Of course, in our squad development you do look at salaries for Premier League and salaries for Championship football but I would like to assure the supporters that we do have Championship clauses in all our contracts. Not every team in our peer group can say that, but we do.”Of course that might not apply to players signed that summer.

[nutty nigel 7,509]

Business! GPB''s nailed it. I never thought about it before. We''ve all been worrying about football but while we''ve replaced the manager, coaches and players the business is still being run by the duffers that were employed in League One by the duffers who oversaw that demise.

 

 

 

 

[Graham Paddons Beard 2,424]

Can''t argue with that. Because I don''t know. All good responses - here are mine for you to pick the bones out of.

Contracts signed by players are often based on PFA contracts, but are heavily modified by agent led negotiation.

I’m not sure what “divisional pay” actually means , but I took it to mean a player will be forced to accept a reduction in salary in the championship. I don’t think this is practical. Yes, those that cannot move on , that have signed such clauses will see their wages reduce, but in reality various factors come to bear.

1.      A player is offered a move to another premier team and he goes. Here we lose our better players.

2.      Players that have signed with us as a Prem Club that do not sign such a contract.

3.      Those that have a release clause in their contract on relegation.

Years ago the Bradford City scenario was used, almost as a contract precedent, where players were relegated on inflated salary, and then refused to leave. Since then contract conditions have been placed to reduce salary on relegation. All good if the player will sign them .

I would say that RVW, Fer and Hooper would not have signed such contracts. Instead they will rely on relegation release clauses. I suspect the Ruddy’s new contract may well be the same.

 

Budgeting for relegation is clearly true. However the cost of the football club in year 3 of the Premier League have increased and this isn’t just wages. I have no doubt that the board have this under control but it wasn’t quite what I meant when I mentioned “division pay” . As an example the large Media support costs will immediately reduce.

 

Contracts and Budget were not really the main points of my post. But I’m happy to gice you my thoughts as you have raised them

 

PS I heard McNally at the Pre Season Dinner in August. Churchillian in its delivery as it was, I doubt all of it would stand up to absolute scrutiny tonight – it included a league position higher than this year I think – but I had had a few glasses.  

 

[Graham Paddons Beard 2,424]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Business! GPB''s nailed it. I never thought about it before. We''ve all been worrying about football but while we''ve replaced the manager, coaches and players the business is still being run by the duffers that were employed in League One by the duffers who oversaw that demise.

 

 

 

 

[/quote]

 

I have absolutely no idea what any of that means NN? I assume you have had a glass of something local. If not , good luck anyway.

[Katie Borkins 1]

[quote user="ricardo"]The Board are not stupid. They have budgeted for the possibility of relegation. This was all explained at the last Fans Forum.[/quote]Well that''s disgusting if true, how the hell is a manager supposed to feel supported or backed by the board if they are actually provisioning for relegation? Reckon now I know why Houghton''s got such a long face and why we spent nothing in January when we could have got a number ten in.  That board should be throwing whatever it takes financially to make sure we stay up and compete.  If you ask me, planning for relegation is a self-fulfilling proffesy.