Van Wolfswinkel...

[MancCanary 0]

Agreed - but probably just because of his wages. Otherwise I think it could be ideal for him - get his confidence back by scoring loads in the championship, (which is probably a weaker league than the Portuguese premiership) ready for a fresh go at the premiership!

[Waveney Canary 0]

[quote user="MancCanary"]Agreed - but probably just because of his wages. Otherwise I think it could be ideal for him - get his confidence back by scoring loads in the championship, (which is probably a weaker league than the Portuguese premiership) ready for a fresh go at the premiership![/quote]

So which one of the Manchester teams did u support in the derby? All that talent on your door and u decide to follow a team far away that you don''t ever visit. Very bizarre

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

[quote user="MancCanary"][quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="MancCanary"]Just re-watched one of the Wolfswinkel goal compilations on Youtube, and it''s like watching a different player.

Here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdUL4v2xps4

There are numerous goals in this where he has to beat a player or two, and finish from really tricky angles. Also, some of the finishes are class - little lobs and chips etc. I''ve seen him get into lots of positions like these this season but he just loses the ball, or can''t get it out from under his feet quickly enough. It''s a mystery.. but one thing''s for sure from watching these goals - he''s not just a one-touch poacher, he can do things that give himself that bit of extra space to get the shot away. He just can''t at Norwich yet for some mystery reason.[/quote]I''ve just watched this video, which is different from the one I saw, although many of the goals are the same. The bit of yours I''ve highlighted  simply isn''t true. Out of the 15 goals I counted (excluding penalties) there is one where he runs from the halfway line and holds off a defender and turns him before shooting. And there is another where he beats the offside trap (so the defenders are all trailing behind) and latches on to a long through-ball and shoots past the keeper.But the rest are poacher goals (almost all one-touch), being on the end of a move and scoring with a shot or a header. He is not beating a player on numerous occasions to score.What I would agree with is that some of the finishes are pretty cute.[/quote]

OK, "numerous" was being a bit generous - but the fact he does clearly have it in him to take a good touch (see the one where he takes it down in his stride before dinking it over the keeper with the wrong foot), and make space for himself, before shooting - something he appears not to be able to do at city.

Plus as we agree his finishing in this video is great - and at Norwich his movement has been good enough to get in some of those tap-in type positions, but his finishing - arguably his strongest point - has been non-existent. It baffles me. I think there is obviously a strong case for Norwich not being as competitive as Sporting in the 2 respective leagues - but then he should still get 5-10 goals a season in my opinion.

If he can bulk up over the summer, that should help. Whatever happens, next season is the decider on him.[/quote]Fair enough. I haven''t seen enough to be certain about RvW but I have to say I am not convinced bulking up will help much. And if we stay up I wouldn''t assume we would want to keep him. We cannot afford passengers in the squad. But no-one else may want him, or at least not without us taking a massive loss. A season-long loan might be one answer.

[MancCanary 0]

I don''t know - I think he''ll be very much part of the first team come august, and will have plenty of time to prove himself. He was a big investment, and as pointed out by many, many people, some players take a season or 2 to get going - so its in our interest to stick with him. As you said, not many teams would spend £8m on him now to take him off our hands, so we either keep him and try to improve him, or we loan him out to someone. But I don''t think we''d consider loaning him out unless he shows no signs of improvement by halfway through next season.

To an extent, we *can* afford a passenger or two, if we just want to stay up, sadly - I''d say we''ve got more than two of those this season - and if we stay up it''ll be by the skin of our teeth.

If we''re looking to achieve a comfortable mid-table finish, then you''re right - no, we can''t afford any passengers.

[Indy_Bones 441]

[quote user="Le Juge"]Idiot.[/quote] Nice polite start, I assume that was a piece of self-analysis you''ve just done...[quote]He was excellent at what he did[/quote]We''ve already covered this, and falling over in a stiff breeze is hardly something to write home about.[quote]a 30 year old Heskey is exactly the type of player that Hooper or Van Wolfswinkel would love to play alongside.[/quote]Absolutely, because they''d then look like world beaters by comparison...[quote]I''d have thought that a Norwich fan in particular would be able to watch the complete ineffectiveness of our two number 9''s and understand that.

Heskey would have been the perfect player to drop into our squad as a partner for Hooper.[/quote]Actually, a Norwich fan in particular would be able to easily identify that neither Hooper nor RVW suit playing a lone target man, that neither are generally receiving the type of balls they thrive on (and Heskey won''t help with through balls past the defence), and also our incredibly slow build up play doesn''t help them either (nor does having to play deeper just to get a pass ffs).None of that would be helped by having Heskey lumbering around alongside them.[quote]Next you are going to tell me how rubbish 40 goals in 154 games for Leicester is, or 39 in 150 for Liverpool, and tell me that he could "do everything but score"[/quote] No, I''d argue that Heskey played well at Leicester, but his form (and apparent footballing ability) declined from that point onwards and in many games he not only didn''t score, he didn''t do much else either (other than distract the odd defender, and even Simeon Jackson managed to do that despite being nowhere near good enough for this level).[quote]and then follow that up by telling me how class Van Wolfswinkel is or tell us that Hooper will challenge for an England spot next season.[/quote]I''ve already pointed out in the thread that I think RVW HASN''T looked his best (even if this is mitigated by some of the reasons for it e.g. being asked to play a completely unsuitable role to his strengths), and Hooper is unlikely to challenge for an England spot either, but I do think RVW COULD be class if used correctly, and that Hooper COULD potentially get an England call at some point if he keeps developing his game.[quote]Heskey was unfairly used as a scapegoat by England fans but appreciated by the fans of his first four Premier League clubs.[/quote]Heskey was a clear indication of the sort of thinking that''s plagued English for football for far too long (seemingly prioritising stamina and strength over passing and technique), and he wasn''t an unfair scapegoat because 9 times out of 10 he wasn''t good enough.As for being appreciated by fans of his former clubs, that''s probably in the same way many Norwich fans see Hughton - nice guy with a good attitude, but simply not good enough in many ways...

[OldRobert 38]

[quote user="Indy_Bones"][quote user="Le Juge"]Idiot.[/quote] Nice polite start, I assume that was a piece of self-analysis you''ve just done...[quote]He was excellent at what he did[/quote]We''ve already covered this, and falling over in a stiff breeze is hardly something to write home about.[quote]a 30 year old Heskey is exactly the type of player that Hooper or Van Wolfswinkel would love to play alongside.[/quote]Absolutely, because they''d then look like world beaters by comparison...[quote]I''d have thought that a Norwich fan in particular would be able to watch the complete ineffectiveness of our two number 9''s and understand that.

Heskey would have been the perfect player to drop into our squad as a partner for Hooper.[/quote]Actually, a Norwich fan in particular would be able to easily identify that neither Hooper nor RVW suit playing a lone target man, that neither are generally receiving the type of balls they thrive on (and Heskey won''t help with through balls past the defence), and also our incredibly slow build up play doesn''t help them either (nor does having to play deeper just to get a pass ffs).None of that would be helped by having Heskey lumbering around alongside them.[quote]Next you are going to tell me how rubbish 40 goals in 154 games for Leicester is, or 39 in 150 for Liverpool, and tell me that he could "do everything but score"[/quote] No, I''d argue that Heskey played well at Leicester, but his form (and apparent footballing ability) declined from that point onwards and in many games he not only didn''t score, he didn''t do much else either (other than distract the odd defender, and even Simeon Jackson managed to do that despite being nowhere near good enough for this level).[quote]and then follow that up by telling me how class Van Wolfswinkel is or tell us that Hooper will challenge for an England spot next season.[/quote]I''ve already pointed out in the thread that I think RVW HASN''T looked his best (even if this is mitigated by some of the reasons for it e.g. being asked to play a completely unsuitable role to his strengths), and Hooper is unlikely to challenge for an England spot either, but I do think RVW COULD be class if used correctly, and that Hooper COULD potentially get an England call at some point if he keeps developing his game.[quote]Heskey was unfairly used as a scapegoat by England fans but appreciated by the fans of his first four Premier League clubs.[/quote]Heskey was a clear indication of the sort of thinking that''s plagued English for football for far too long (seemingly prioritising stamina and strength over passing and technique), and he wasn''t an unfair scapegoat because 9 times out of 10 he wasn''t good enough.As for being appreciated by fans of his former clubs, that''s probably in the same way many Norwich fans see Hughton - nice guy with a good attitude, but simply not good enough in many ways...[/quote]I think that is one of the best responses I have ever seen on this board on any subject Indy.  My hat off to you.[:D]

[priceyrice 123]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="MancCanary"]Just re-watched one of the Wolfswinkel goal compilations on Youtube, and it''s like watching a different player.

Here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdUL4v2xps4

There are numerous goals in this where he has to beat a player or two, and finish from really tricky angles. Also, some of the finishes are class - little lobs and chips etc. I''ve seen him get into lots of positions like these this season but he just loses the ball, or can''t get it out from under his feet quickly enough. It''s a mystery.. but one thing''s for sure from watching these goals - he''s not just a one-touch poacher, he can do things that give himself that bit of extra space to get the shot away. He just can''t at Norwich yet for some mystery reason.[/quote]I''ve just watched this video, which is different from the one I saw, although many of the goals are the same. The bit of yours I''ve highlighted  simply isn''t true. Out of the 15 goals I counted (excluding penalties) there is one where he runs from the halfway line and holds off a defender and turns him before shooting. And there is another where he beats the offside trap (so the defenders are all trailing behind) and latches on to a long through-ball and shoots past the keeper.But the rest are poacher goals (almost all one-touch), being on the end of a move and scoring with a shot or a header. He is not beating a player on numerous occasions to score.What I would agree with is that some of the finishes are pretty cute.[/quote]

I''ve just watched the video and have to agree with Purple, most of the finishes are pretty standard poacher goals, which is what he is IMO. The thing that stands out from that video is just how poor the defence is, i think this goes a long way to explaining the RVW problem

[Holtcantshoot 0]

[quote user="Indy_Bones"][quote user="I.S."]So to get back to my actual point - you said that you have seen "Sunday League pub players" that are better than Heskey, which is total nonsense. I don''t need stats to assure me of that point.[/quote]Just like we''ve already seen, it''s more than possible to come up from non-league football to the very top of the game, e.g.:A) Ian WrightB) Les FerdinandC) Kevin PhillipsD) Stan CollymoreI''ve seen 2-3 players in actual Sunday League teams that I genuinely felt offered a greater goal threat (even against such pathetic opposition) than Heskey did in the majority of his career and as this is my personal opinion - it simply can''t be wrong (although I can''t deny your right to disagree with it either).Heskey was a joke of a striker, and quite why you''re defending him so strongly I simply don''t know - what''s next, a group to extol the all round game of Dean Coney (even if he couldn''t hit a cows backside with a banjo)...[/quote]Just to cover the emission of truly the greatest to rise from non-league football to the very top of the game:E) Grant Holt

[Juggy 0]

"I''ve seen 2-3 players in actual Sunday League teams that I genuinely felt offered a greater goal threat (even against such pathetic opposition) than Heskey did in the majority of his career"

I can''t believe you actually think you can compare a sunday league player with a professional. It''s like watching boxing down The Talk and saying that one of them looks good enough to beat Danny Garcia.

[Juggy 0]

The Premier League is arguably the best league in the world. Heskey scored 110 goals in the best league in the world.

If you think that by shouting loud enough you will manage to convince us that you have seen better strikers playing for pub teams in the Evening News sunday league (in a county which hasn''t produced much more than the Jarvis brothers over the past decade) then sorry but I think you may have mental problems.

[lake district canary 4,531]

Have I missed something?   Have we signed  Heskey or something?  [:^)]

[Juggy 0]

"No, I''d argue that Heskey played well at Leicester, but his form (and apparent footballing ability) declined from that point onwards and in many games he not only didn''t score, he didn''t do much else either (other than distract the odd defender, and even Simeon Jackson managed to do that despite being nowhere near good enough for this level)"

Yes it declined so much post-Leicester that his 22 goals in the 2001/02 season made absolutely no contribution at all to Liverpool''s treble winning season. I''m sure Liverpool fans are still suffering from having to endure those three horrible finals. Amazing that they managed to win the League Cup, FA Cup, and UEFA Cup in the same season while having a sunday league player on the pitch for 56 of their games.

You absolute flid.

[Mr Angry 1,547]

Wow Indy, tell us where you watch Sunday league football, must be pretty special if they''ve got strikers who are better than the 17th all time top scorer in the Premiership.

[SeattleCanary 0]

[quote user="lake district canary"]Have I missed something?   Have we signed  Heskey or something?  [:^)]

[/quote]

Haha. That was the impression I was getting. I''ve been off here a few days and BOOM! We''ve signed Heskey!

[crabbycanary 2]

Were you banned Seattle?

[Indy_Bones 441]

[quote user="Le Juge"]Yes it declined so much post-Leicester that his 22 goals in the 2001/02 season made absolutely no contribution at all to Liverpool''s treble winning season.[/quote]Well it was actually 23 goals that season, 14 in the league, 3 UEFA cup, 5 FA cup and 1 international goal.Interesting to note that of those 14 league goals, 3 were against the worst team in the prem in modern times - Derby, with another 6 against ''powerhouses'' such as Leicester, Bradford, Coventry, Charlton and Ipswich...still you can''t help the teams you play against.Also interesting to note that you picked his best ever premiership season as a comparison whilst conveniently ignoring his 6 goal return in 02/03, or his 4 league goals in 05/06. Maybe it was his amazing returns of 14 league goals across a full FIVE seasons (from 07/08 to 11/12) that you''re so impressed with - after all, this is the same amount of goals he got back in 01/02 (just took him 5 seasons to replicate it)...Frankly however, I''m getting extremely bored of even debating the merits of a completely over-rated (and generally useless) striker, especially when it has f**k all to do with our club in the first place. You want to spend your weekend with a box of tissues and a copy of this month''s "Heskey Handjob" then be my guest, but I''m done with talking about the guy for even a minute longer at this point.So sad that you want to celebrate and defend sheer mediocrity, rather than genuine talent instead...

[Guest]

Indy, this is very entertaining.

Rather than saying "yeah, apologies for that - I was exaggerating a bit when I said there were Sunday league players better than Heskey", you choose to dig a deeper hole with some ridiculously contrived argument.

Simple fact, there are no Sunday league/pub players that are "more competent" footballers than someone who is in the top 20 all-time scorers in the Premier league and played at the top level for a long time. I am genuinely bemused that you are even trying to suggest otherwise. There may well be some players currently playing at a decent non-league level who have the potential to go and do better if given the opportunity, but "Sunday league"... give me a break.

I don''t care how many stats you pull out of your backside to try and back up that point, and I couldn''t give a toss if it is your opinion. It is just plain wrong. Utter delusion.

[Juggy 0]

Let''s have a little recap shall we?

YOU: "No, I''d argue that Heskey played well at Leicester, but his form (and apparent footballing ability) declined from that point onwards"

ME: "Yes it declined so much post-Leicester that his 22 goals in the 2001/02 season made absolutely no contribution at all to Liverpool''s treble winning season"

YOU: "Also interesting to note that you picked his best ever premiership season as a comparison"

I chose his first full season after leaving Leicester, a time when his footballing ability and goals you claim dried up completely!

Heskey won 4 League Cups, 1 FA Cup, and 1 UEFA Cup, he played 19 Premier League seasons, for 5 different clubs, and is 6th in the all time PL appearances table, 17th in the all time Premier League goalscoring tables.

The only thing that is sad here is that you want to embark on this vicious assault on a footballer for no other reason than that you have taken some pretty funny but cliched Heskey jokes far too seriously.

And yet I''m being asked to celebrate Van Wolfswinkel for his "genuine talent" after 1 goal in 25 games.

I''d swap a 25 year old Heskey for a 25 year old Van Wolfswinkel, no questions.

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

I saw Heskey''s first goal in league football, at Carrow Road. He went to trap the ball, about 40 yards away from goal and it just shot past Andy Marshall. He didn''t have a hope...