Loza on ty Mon night

[Ray 111]

GJP,

And persisting with an £8.5m striker with one goal to his name (30 games ago), isn''t a sign of deperation??

Was David Moyes deperate when he released Rooney onto the world age 16?

Were Southampton deperate when they started Shaw?

Let''s face it, although last Saturday''s win has eased the pressure, we are desperate, deperate for a forward who knows where the net is.

[Bethnal Yellow and Green 1,557]

How about we let the lad play more than 1 game in League Two before everyone starts suggesting he should be playing in the Premier League to fire Norwich up the table? Rather than building him up as some wonderkid after a decent performance against Oxford United, just let him go and play and find his feet as a professional footballer. The last thing he needs is a bunch of Norwich fans using him as some kind of stick to beat Hughton with.

 

He isn''t the obvious talent of players such as Rooney or Luke Shaw so comparing him to those two is stupid. If he was that good he''d be in the team already - he certainly wouldn''t have struggled as much as he did in his other two loan spells so far this season. I hope he can get plenty of time at Southend and develop quickly, or at least prove himself at a lower level so Norwich can get a bit of money for him to help keep the academy going.

[Fleckys Flip-Flop 0]

Spot on Bethnal. Young Jamar played very well and it was great to see him last the full 90. But let''s not forget, he has failed to make a real impact in League 1 this season already. This season should be excellent for his development, much like Chris Martin''s spell at Luton was for his. Loza has the potential, but he needs real competitive games to realise it. Hopefully he can finish the season well at Southend and move up to League 1 level next year. It would be a waste to keep him here as 4th choice next season. The boy reminds me of Jermaine Defoe and he went out on loan plenty of times before he got his Premier League chance. Let''s not get carried away.

[Ray 111]

Guys,

I didn''t suggest he was the talent Rooney and Shaw were and are, I was making the point about age and I have for a while now suggested we give him a go, not simply because he had one good game for Southend.

As for his loans spells at Coventry and Orient, from memory I think he got about 5 minutes max playing time, so no, he didn''t contribute a great deal but given his performance (and one swallow doesn''t make a summer, I know) last night, maybe they, and we, were/are missing a trick, he was MOTM after all.

Just maybe, he won''t be 4th choice next season, but we need a manager prepared to take a risk.

Yep, he does have a Jermains Defoe ring about him and if he can mirror his scoring abilities then we have a winner and from my point of view, sooner rather than later.

[Indy 3,283]

[quote user="Bethnal Yellow and Green"]

How about we let the lad play more than 1 game in League Two before everyone starts suggesting he should be playing in the Premier League to fire Norwich up the table? Rather than building him up as some wonderkid after a decent performance against Oxford United, just let him go and play and find his feet as a professional footballer. The last thing he needs is a bunch of Norwich fans using him as some kind of stick to beat Hughton with.

 

He isn''t the obvious talent of players such as Rooney or Luke Shaw so comparing him to those two is stupid. If he was that good he''d be in the team already - he certainly wouldn''t have struggled as much as he did in his other two loan spells so far this season. I hope he can get plenty of time at Southend and develop quickly, or at least prove himself at a lower level so Norwich can get a bit of money for him to help keep the academy going.

[/quote]

 

Why do we always downplay our youngsters? How do you know how good he is? How about Redmond, he was 19 when he started playing for us this seasosn! If you''re good enough you are old enough, Stirling, Redmond, Shaw, etc. would not be anywhere the class they are had their managers not given them a go and developed them.

 

Hell can''t be any worse than what we have seen from some of the front players this term, there have been some desperate perfromances from those up top.

 

Now I''m not saying we have the next Rooney or Stirling but let''s play them up and not down.......

[Bethnal Yellow and Green 1,557]

[quote user="Indy"][quote user="Bethnal Yellow and Green"]

How about we let the lad play more than 1 game in League Two before everyone starts suggesting he should be playing in the Premier League to fire Norwich up the table? Rather than building him up as some wonderkid after a decent performance against Oxford United, just let him go and play and find his feet as a professional footballer. The last thing he needs is a bunch of Norwich fans using him as some kind of stick to beat Hughton with.

 

He isn''t the obvious talent of players such as Rooney or Luke Shaw so comparing him to those two is stupid. If he was that good he''d be in the team already - he certainly wouldn''t have struggled as much as he did in his other two loan spells so far this season. I hope he can get plenty of time at Southend and develop quickly, or at least prove himself at a lower level so Norwich can get a bit of money for him to help keep the academy going.

[/quote]

 

Why do we always downplay our youngsters? How do you know how good he is? How about Redmond, he was 19 when he started playing for us this seasosn! If you''re good enough you are old enough, Stirling, Redmond, Shaw, etc. would not be anywhere the class they are had their managers not given them a go and developed them.

 

Hell can''t be any worse than what we have seen from some of the front players this term, there have been some desperate perfromances from those up top.

 

Now I''m not saying we have the next Rooney or Stirling but let''s play them up and not down.......

[/quote]

It''s never great to hype up a youngster too much - otherwise fans expect them to be able to deliver everytime and instantly.

 

I think we have already seen that this season with the Murphy twins - fans were crying out for them to be given a chance, but Josh''s fleeting Premier League apperances suggest he probably isn''t quite ready yet. That''s not to say it won''t happen, but players need to be given time - not thrown into a lion''s den. This is especially true when in the Premier League and every second of every game is analysed and repeated. Let younger players develop in less stressful situations and see how they get on.

 

People say things like ''you never know until you give them a try'' and such like, but that is mostly nonsence. Players like the Murphys and Loza will be scrutinised to massive extent at Colney and with a team of coaches and analytic experts they can have a pretty good understanding on how a player will cope when ''given a chance''. Rooney, Shaw, Sterling etc weren''t thrown into games without their managers being as sure as possible that they could cope with it. But these are the rare expections of players who have gone straight into teams without first being allowed to go out on loan first and develop away from the glare of the world.

 

I''ve seen a few Norwich U21 games and seen Loza play in the flesh - he''s decent, but personally I don''t think he is particulary close to playing in the Premier League. Hopefully he''ll stay at Southend until the end of the season and shines whilst he''s there and comes back at the end of the season a better player. The same goes for the lad at Oldham.

[andyc24_uk 58]

The ideal scenario for us and for Loza I reckon would be spend the rest of this season banging in a few goals in League 2, then hopefully first half of next season loan him out to be a regular at a Championship team - then we bring him back in January with a lot more experience and full of confidence,and essentially it would be like we''ve signed one of the hottest young strikers in the Championship for free... Fingers crossed on that, I reckon he has what it takes...

[ReadingCanary 0]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T03cy6uA3Bs&sns=twVideo is up

[GJP 79]

[quote user="Indy"]

Why do we always downplay our youngsters?

[/quote]

Do we?

 

Over the years I''ve been posting on here youngsters have often been ridiculously overrated.

 

I can remember someone saying they expect Korey Smith to captain a top 4 Premier League side and that Michael Spillane was captain material for us. And that''s amongst the calls for the likes of Rossi Jarvis and Robert Eagle to be given a go.

 

Even now we''ve got Ryan Bennett (still being classed as "young") being labelled a future England defender by some - even though he''s done nothing on the pitch to suggest he''s a player of that calibre. Yes I know Bennett isn''t from our youth setup but he''s still deemed to be young and have loads of potential. 

[Legend Iwan 30]

Loza''s come on a lot since the beginning of this season. He previously relied too heavily on his natural strength, speed and size, which at youth level meant he comfortably beat people, but in u21 matches, against senior opposition, he struggled.

Now he plays with a lot more thought to his game. Much better vision (although he needs to not be quite as selfish at times), decent passing and an improved first touch should see him have a professional career. It may not be with us, but good on him if he makes it.

[Stowmarket Canary (not Delia) 0]

Tweeted my mates brother in law who writes for the Southend echo, he said Loza was excellent last night!

[Dubai Mark 0]

So pleased that the club appear to be having some success developing the youth as we are now seeing some clear signs of more quality breaking through..... and thanks to Bethnall I say for simply telling us how it is without any hidden agenda............ 

[Ray 111]

Dubai,

I''ve seen the lad over the last two seasons and he has come on leaps and bounds and under ''normal'' circumstances I would tend to agree with Bethnall''s take on things. However, we are not in normal circumstances, we have forwards who cannot score, for whatever reason, so what do we have to lose? That said it would need to be handled well, so that if it doesn''t work out (Loza only scores as many as the current encumbents, not difficult mind you) his long term prospects remain unaffected.

On the other hand he could bang in 4 or 5 by then end of the season, help us ensure survival and make a name for himself, saving or making us money in the transfer window.

Youngsters often make their name through unusual circumstances, he may be one of those.

[alex_ncfc 647]

I agree with Ray on this. Young players break through at other clubs all the time, why not at NCFC?

Like Ray says, we have strikers who aren''t scoring goals, so what have we to lose? The goals are coming from other areas of the team, so it''s not like we''d be missing those players.

[Ray 111]

Alex_ncfc,

And he is quick and an unknown quantity, so could, and probably would, cause defences problems. He is young, only 19, and the younger you are generally speaking, the less fear you have. If he put in the effort he did last night, that would do for me.

[Nuff Said 5,089]

[quote user="alex_ncfc"]I agree with Ray on this. Young players break through at other clubs all the time, why not at NCFC?

Like Ray says, we have strikers who aren''t scoring goals, so what have we to lose? The goals are coming from other areas of the team, so it''s not like we''d be missing those players.[/quote]To quote BYG, who seems to be a rare voice of sanity on this thread:

"People say things like ''you never know until you give them a try'' and

such like, but that is mostly nonsence. Players like the Murphys and

Loza will be scrutinised to massive extent at Colney and with a team of

coaches and analytic experts they can have a pretty good understanding

on how a player will cope when ''given a chance''"

Professional staff at Colney will have seen WAY more of Loza and all the other young players than the couple of minutes of YouTube footage which has people so excited. Their judgement must be that he needs more time to develop at a lower level, which,let''s face it, is the way it goes for 99.9% of professional players, certainly the ones we''re in with a shout of having in our squad.You never know, if they gave me a try instead of RVW against Swansea I might get a hattrick, but it''s unlikely.

[alex_ncfc 647]

But - how likely is RVW to get a hattrick against Swansea?

[GJP 79]

[quote user="Ray"] If he put in the effort he did last night, that would do for me.[/quote]

Elmander, Hooper and RVW all put in effort.

[Ray 111]

Nuff Said,

That would be a voice of sanity according to you and perhaps using your words, " a rare voice" means the vast majority disagree, so sanity is subjective then?

And for what it is worth some of us on here watch the the U21s regularly so speak with more knowledge than you and are perhaps more prone to take a chance with a young player, who let''s face it could do no worse than our current forwards.

I guess from what you have said, you have seen a couple of minutes of youtube footage at best, some of us watched the full game last night and some of us have seen all the games he has played, so please respect our views and opinions, even if you disagree.

As I have said previously, he may well need more time to develop but why not develop him in our first team squad?

There probably is more chance of you getting a hatrick than RvW and probably more chance of Loza getting one than you.

[Ray 111]

GJP,

I didn''t say they didn''t, please if you are going to quote me then don''t put words in my mouth.

However, your comments sort of make my point, if they are doing their best then Loza''s best is probaly as good and could possibly be more productive.

[morty 0]

I think the lad at least deserves a small cameo appearance before the end of the season.

[GJP 79]

[quote user="Ray"]GJP, I didn''t say they didn''t, please if you are going to quote me then don''t put words in my mouth. However, your comments sort of make my point, if they are doing their best then Loza''s best is probaly as good and could possibly be more productive.[/quote]

I didn''t put words in your mouth.

 

You said if Loza put the effort in then that''d be enough for you.

 

I just added that the other strikers put effort in too.

 

Anyway, Loza has had 1 good game in League 2. Hooper and RVW have had prolific spells playing at a higher levels and they''re struggling in this league so why is Loza any better equipped to succeed than they are?

[Ray 111]

GJP,

He may not be better equiped, although he is quicker and is currently doing the job he is paid to do, which is score goals, OK League 2 and U21''s, but we will never know unless he is given a chance. A cameo or two and we would probably answer your question of "why is Loza better equiped to succeed" (assuming we are judging success by goals scored or assists made) and imo this would be with little or no risk given the form of our current strikers.

Under normal circumstances I would agree, it may be best to loan him to gain experience, but he can gain experience in the Prem and these aren''t normal circumstances.

[shefcanary 2,385]

The lad is quick, has good feet and is definitely got more beef on him than RVW - what''s not to like.  If he doesn''t get a run out post loan this season then I really think the management team are clueless.  Oh and Murphy should be on the bench instead of Pilks / Redmond.

[Buh 0]

I think We all know at least one guy that if anyone from the under 8''s to the senior squad scores a goal is instantly giving it "get em'' in the first team immediately" "little Johnny from mrs richardsons class has scored again? What is Hughton waiting for!"

I think the run in of a season is not an ideal place to be blooding youngsters until we can assure safety. Young players will come through when the team at Colney are ready and whatever your thoughts on the first team coaching staff you can''t really have a go at the youth development team, we have some great young players. That''s why I''m so eager not to "jack wilshire" them. (Over play them at a young age and essentially ruin their long term careers)

[Ray 111]

Buh,

Me thinks you may have gone overboard with ''little Johnny'' however Loza is 19, Wilshire was only 16 when he made his debut, not quite the same.and I agree we have some great young players, so when do they morph from being great young players to great players, at what age. I would have thought Loza is old enough, given he is 20 in May.

Re first team coaching staff, I think I''m correct in saying that neither of RvW or Hoops have scored for 15 games, how many other managers would persist with the same two strikers and not throw a curved ball in the pot (mixed metaphors I know).

[GJP 79]

[quote user="shefcanary"]The lad is quick, has good feet and is definitely got more beef on him than RVW - what''s not to like.  If he doesn''t get a run out post loan this season then I really think the management team are clueless.  Oh and Murphy should be on the bench instead of Pilks / Redmond.[/quote]

"Definitely got more beef on him" suggests you probably haven''t seen Loza because he isn''t exactly a strapping lad. He''s not tall and he hasn''t exactly got a stocky build either. If anything he''s "slight".

 

I mean I know RVW sometimes looks like a feather the way he''s been brushed off the ball but to suggest Loza is stronger or has indeed got "more beef" is very far wide of the mark.

 

Not even going to get started on the Murphy ahead of Pilks/Redmond thing...

[Ray 111]

GJP,

I know the lad and have seen him as God intended and I can assure you whilst not the tallest version, he is built like a brick outhouse. A very strong individual, which his goal the other night is testament to.

So, shefcanary is not wide of the mark, on this ocassion I would suggest, it is you who is missing the target.

[GJP 79]

I don''t doubt Loza is in good shape but he is nothing like what I''d consider a "brick outhouse" to be.

 

Altidore, who played upfront for Sunderland, that''s an outhouse. A much, much better example of one.

[shefcanary 2,385]

GJP

Accepted he is not in the Altidore scale of things, but he has much more about him than RVW.  I have every confidence that he can handle Premier league defenders and in the case of Ferdinand / Vidic / Koceilny etc can leave them for dead if given a run on them.  Sometimes the unknown can really get under them.  Like Ray says, he is 19, has now mixed it in League 1 & 2 and certainly is ready for it, if he cannot do it now will he ever? 

 

And for all those who say don''t blood ''em early cos it might lead to them not making it to their 30''s, perhaps I am being a bit mercenary and have a short term outlook but would you prefer 10 years of a Michael Owen between 16-26 or ten years of Holt 23-33 - I would argue there is not much difference in the long run for a club.  However sad it is to see a player crocked by his late 20''s, if he has given 10 years of good service what else should we expect.