Van Wolfswinkel - Right player wrong decade.

[Juggy 0]

He is a "poacher" apparently, and that''s why he has been rubbish.I think there is some truth in that actually, maybe he is a poacher. A very mediocre one who is very low on confidence.Unfortunately there is very little reason  to have hope, mainly for these reasons:

• Poachers went extinct in the nineties. Players like Gary Lineker don''t exist anymore in the Premier League for a very good reason.

• Poachers, when they existed in this country, did not play up front as a lone striker. They played in a 4-4-2 mainly, with a target man who can flick the ball on and hold balls up. We don''t even own a target man anymore (well, Becchio maybe), and if we did he wouldn''t be played in a front two by Hughton (or many other managers). Ironic really that the ideal strike partner for a poacher would be somebody like Emile Heskey, who was being ridiculed on another thread by somebody who was asserting that Van Wolfswinkel is a poacher. Probably the perfect partner for him.

• Gary Lineker scored so many goals because he was very brave. Go and watch his 46 England goals, there is no way that Van Wolfswinkel has the bottle to put his head where it might hurt quite like Lineker. 

• Contrary to the belief that poachers need the ball in the six yard box (where Lineker scored most of his goals), Lineker was actually very adept at taking the ball with his back to the goal anywhere in the 18 yard box and fashioning a chance out of nothing, scoring several goals by flicking the ball and hitting it on the volley or half volley on the turn. We''ve not seen any evidence in 26 games that Wolfy is a threat anywhere in the 18 yard box, top strikers like Van Persie and Lineker are a threat if they get the ball anywhere in the 18 yard box.

• Gary Lineker scored most of his goals by hitting the ball first time, he hardly ever attempted to take a touch.

• A poacher scores most of his goals in and around the six yard box. Van Wolfswinkel is generally nowhere near the six yard box when a cross comes in, so if he is a poacher then why on earth isn''t he doing what poachers do? All they do is run towards the goal and hope to get a touch or a rebound or something. Van Wolfswinkel is often messing around on the edge of the box, if he is a poacher then why isn''t he doing what Lineker used to do? No bottle? No determination?

Gary Lineker set the benchmark for poachers in this country, before they were made redundant as anything other than a supersub (Adam Le Fondre a living example perhaps).

If people are holding out for our record signing to become Gary Lineker overnight then don''t hold your breath, Lineker was a world class poacher and Van Wolfswinkel is a poor imitation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAPtAsbEmII

[Waveney Canary 0]

It could be the above or maybe it''s just he is a cr@p footballer who we have paid a club record fee to being to the premier league.

For all of hughtons any mistakes this is the worst one in my opinion

[Juggy 0]

Well the summary of my post would be:"It is probably true

that Van Wolfswinkel is a poacher but a cr@p one compared with Gary

Lineker, and the Premier League stopped doing ''poachers'' in the Nineties

when they died with 4-4-2"

[city4eva 242]

The bone man will be along soon to tell you that you are dumb, talking sh.., with a few F U mixed in. but IMO you have it spot on

[city4eva 242]

I see that you sit in the lower barclay block C as do I, maybe RVW looks different there than he does from bones stream

[lake district canary 4,830]

Wrong thread at the wrong time.

[Juggy 0]

What would be the right time?I think it is the right time to write him off for this season and start playing our top scoring striker again.

[Gingerpele 0]

Our top scoring striker who hasn''t scored for over three months and looks even less confident because he''s missed at least thre, if not four, times as many quality chances as Wolfswinkle has all season since Boxing Day.

But let''s ignore that because Hooper is perfect and Wolsfwinkle is crap. Despite anyone with eyes and a three year olds understanding of football can see that''s not true.

[Juggy 0]

Van Wolfswinkle hasn''t scored in his last 25 games..... he is only 5 away from matching Danny Grahams epic drought.Of course Hooper is struggling for goals also, 14 games without scoring.But he still has 7 for the season and has had less shots than Van Wolfswinkle over the course of this season.5 EPL goals from 36 shots not to be sniffed at.What do you have against us starting Hooper anyway? Who is keeping him out of the team and why?

[Indy_Bones 444]

[quote user="Le Juge"]Poachers went extinct in the nineties. Players like Gary Lineker don''t exist anymore in the Premier League for a very good reason.[/quote]Poachers did NOT go extinct in the 90''s, players like Inzaghi were still plying their trade up until 2012, not to mention existing poachers like Huntelaar, Gomez and Chicarito (amongst a few others).[quote]Poachers, when they existed in this country, did not play up front as a lone striker. They played in a 4-4-2 mainly, with a target man who can flick the ball on and hold balls up. We don''t even own a target man anymore (well, Becchio maybe), and if we did he wouldn''t be played in a front two by Hughton (or many other managers). Ironic really that the ideal strike partner for a poacher would be somebody like Emile Heskey, who was being ridiculed on another thread by somebody who was asserting that Van Wolfswinkel is a poacher. Probably the perfect partner for him.[/quote]Two different arguments there Le Juge1) My main assertion is that RVW is NOT a target man, will NEVER work properly when played as a lone striker and asked to hold the ball and has been criminally misused this season under Hughton (as has Hooper tbh).2) I don''t rate Heskey, simple as.[quote]Gary Lineker scored so many goals because he was very brave. Go and watch his 46 England goals, there is no way that Van Wolfswinkel has the bottle to put his head where it might hurt quite like Lineker.[/quote]Gary Lineker scored so many goals because he was in the right place at the right time and was given the ball at that time, rather than him possessing some overpowering level of bravery.[quote]Contrary to the belief that poachers need the ball in the six yard box (where Lineker scored most of his goals)[/quote]Well that is one of the key definitions of a goal poacher ffs[quote]We''ve not seen any evidence in 26 games that Wolfy is a threat anywhere in the 18 yard box, top strikers like Van Persie and Lineker are a threat if they get the ball anywhere in the 18 yard box.[/quote]Van Persie has NEVER been a goal poacher ffs, so that''s a ridiculous comparison to begin with.[quote]Gary Lineker scored most of his goals by hitting the ball first time, he hardly ever attempted to take a touch.[/quote]And how many genuine chances has RVW had this season to take those first time shots?[quote]A poacher scores most of his goals in and around the six yard box. Van Wolfswinkel is generally nowhere near the six yard box when a cross comes in, so if he is a poacher then why on earth isn''t he doing what poachers do?[/quote]2 main reasons:1) Because he''s not being asked to play as a poacher by Hughton, he''s being asked to play as a target man instead. Look how often he has to drop deep to even get a pass, so how can he be having to play deep AND goal poach at the same time???2) He''s spent the entire season making the runs to get into position and consistently been ignored, I''m sure he''s got to the point where he thinks he may as well just not bother if the team are simply going to ignore his movement[quote]If people are holding out for our record signing to become Gary Lineker overnight then don''t hold your breath, Lineker was a world class poacher and Van Wolfswinkel is a poor imitation.[/quote]Actually, it''s just you that seems to have some odd Lineker fetish, I simply feel that even players like Lineker or Inzaghi would struggle in our current setup and having to follow Hughton''s instructions, rather than playing their natural game that got them so many goals, and with that being the case I can''t blame RVW too much for his goal drought this season.

If you want another video to watch, then have a look on YouTube for some of the Michael Owen compilations, note how the majority of those goals came from a through ball past the defence so he could use his pace behind them and score (even many of the finishes were somewhat powder puff tbh). Now imagine that instead of being given all those through balls to play to his key strengths, he''d instead been told to play upfront on his own and hold the ball up, do you honestly think he''s have scored even a quarter of his goals if that was the case...?

[norfolkbroadslim 225]

To lable Lineker as merely a poacher is not really very valid. Anyone who watched Spurs play us will know that is just not the case.

Spurs & Lineker, a bit like Liverpool & Suarez, always seemed to have a field day against us.

Some of the goals Lineker scored against us were quality non poachers gosls.

[Google Bot 3,934]

I still don''t see RvW as a player who''s down on confidence, i think he very much believes in his ability.

Not right player wrong decade for me, just simply ''wrong manager''. Put him in a quality side like Arsenal who score through movement and creative play and he''d be a Dutch International regular.

So, no, i don''t think he''s a dud like some are suggesting.

[PurpleCanary 6,386]

[quote user="Indy_Bones"]Gary Lineker scored so many goals because he was in the right place at the right time and was given the ball at that time, rather than him possessing some overpowering level of bravery.[/quote]Lineker was asked about that once. It was put to him that the key to being a good striker was being in the right place at the right time. He said no. "The trick is to be in the right place all the time."

[chicken 0]

Saying that Lineker was purely a poacher would be wrong, but to suggest that wasn''t his preferred role would also be wrong. He preferred to be in and around the box - not creating or dropping deep so much.

It''s also worth pointing out that a play that was so brave never got booked once.

Comparatively speaking I''d say it''s not an unfair reflection to compare the two.

However, it is also worth noting the number of other players that continue to play in the same way. There are a great many.

Bent has made a career of it - and he''s still only 30.

[chicken 0]

Also, why start a new thread when you started this one which went the same way?:

http://services.pinkun.com/forums/pinkun/cs/forums/3092908/ShowPost.aspx

Or even just add to this one:

http://services.pinkun.com/forums/pinkun/cs/forums/3093973/ShowPost.aspx

[Yellow Wal 315]

To have a player who can be effective in the six yard box, or even the penalty box, you have to get the ball in there!

[Canary On The Wire 0]

Oh for Christ''s sake.It is the nature of a reactive manager playing a reactive system that if you''re going to sit narrow and compress the spaces by having wingers inside on their stronger foot - without the pace (or the courage) to have full backs on the overlap (Olsson excepted- that''s part of the reason why he''s been a standout performer for us) then by and large you''re going to struggle to get the ball to the byline and get it cut back into the path of the diagonal runs RvW has been making all season off the last line of defence when we''re on the attack. As a result of the fact that Hughton spent £8.5m on van Wolfswinkel and plays to none of his strengths I would argue that a lot of the blame for Ricky''s lack of confidence and the way he''s missing opportunities now lies at Hughton''s door for acquiring the wrong personnel for the wrong setup. The way we play will always get the best out of the likes of Snodgrass because they sit inside as an extra central midfielder a lot of the time, and this allows him time on the ball to run at players and cross or shoot. He hasn''t got the pace to get to the byline but he can beat a man and get a decent cross in. The trouble is that RvW and Hooper are the same in that they''d like to see proper out and out wide men or pacy overlapping full backs offering a threat on both flanks. Then they get the cutbacks to latch onto and fire home.Trouble is as Norwich fans we''ve grown used to having a striker who goes and makes things happen (Holt) but the two strikers we''ve got will never be that kind of talismanic player even though they are technically superior. We''ve got the wrong manager playing the wrong players in the wrong way, and that''s why we''re entirely mediocre and scrapping at the bottom of the table.

[Syteanric 1]

Inzaghi is one of my favourite ever players (along with Buffon, Prilo and Bergkamp).. glad he got a mentioned.. watch the video of all his goals for Milan.. he doesnt take people on, doesnt score from outside the box.. he just shot!

as for people saying Poachers went out of fashion in the nineties, who was that fat bloke who played up front for us last few seasons???

[DistantCanary 0]

The signings of two goal poachers (Hooper & Winkle) just emphasise the incompetence of the management team.

If they plan to play one up top which they always did look for and scout someone suitable for that role. Don''t but two lads who rely on a target man to feed off and expect them to change.

If you play one up surely he has to be a beast that can occupy two defenders like Drogba, Lukaku, Ricky Lambert, Holty (when he felt like it). The only one we have remotely in that Category is Elmander. (I''ve no idea what Becchio could offer us as he has never been given the chance to show us)

Two Good players that would produce goals i''ve no doubt if utilized as they were at their previous clubs.

[norfolkbroadslim 225]

How do people think Robert Fleck would have faired under Hughton?

[Canary On The Wire 0]

Holt wasn''t a poacher Jas, he was a pauncher [;)]

[Herman 11,136]

[quote user="Canary On The Wire"]Oh for Christ''s sake.

It is the nature of a reactive manager playing a reactive system that if you''re going to sit narrow and compress the spaces by having wingers inside on their stronger foot - without the pace (or the courage) to have full backs on the overlap (Olsson excepted- that''s part of the reason why he''s been a standout performer for us) then by and large you''re going to struggle to get the ball to the byline and get it cut back into the path of the diagonal runs RvW has been making all season off the last line of defence when we''re on the attack.

As a result of the fact that Hughton spent £8.5m on van Wolfswinkel and plays to none of his strengths I would argue that a lot of the blame for Ricky''s lack of confidence and the way he''s missing opportunities now lies at Hughton''s door for acquiring the wrong personnel for the wrong setup. The way we play will always get the best out of the likes of Snodgrass because they sit inside as an extra central midfielder a lot of the time, and this allows him time on the ball to run at players and cross or shoot. He hasn''t got the pace to get to the byline but he can beat a man and get a decent cross in. The trouble is that RvW and Hooper are the same in that they''d like to see proper out and out wide men or pacy overlapping full backs offering a threat on both flanks. Then they get the cutbacks to latch onto and fire home.

Trouble is as Norwich fans we''ve grown used to having a striker who goes and makes things happen (Holt) but the two strikers we''ve got will never be that kind of talismanic player even though they are technically superior. We''ve got the wrong manager playing the wrong players in the wrong way, and that''s why we''re entirely mediocre and scrapping at the bottom of the table.
[/quote]

 

Nothing to add except very good post. Ta[Y]

[Juggy 0]

"Poachers did NOT go extinct in the 90''s, players like Inzaghi were still

plying their trade up until 2012, not to mention existing poachers like

Huntelaar, Gomez and Chicarito (amongst a few others)"Brilliant. I say that poachers don''t exist in this country anymore, and you counter that by naming three players who have never played in this country and another who is nothing more than a supersub (see my Adam Le Fondre reference). You may as well become a parrot.

"My main assertion is that RVW is NOT a target man, will NEVER

work properly when played as a lone striker and asked to hold the ball

and has been criminally misused this season under Hughton"You don''t see me arguing against that point do you Indy? Good work parrot."I don''t rate Heskey, simple as"You have already showed yourself up by claiming that the 17th highest PL goalscorer is sunday league standard, let''s not be getting into that again.

"Gary Lineker scored so many goals because he was in the right place at

the right time and was given the ball at that time, rather than him

possessing some overpowering level of bravery"Why can''t Van Wolfswinkel be in the right place at the right time then? And yes he was brave with his low headers, a lot braver than Van Wolfswinkel. How is this an argument against my assertion that Lineker was a class poacher and Van Wolfswinkel is not? If one got in the right place at the right time 329 times in competitive football and Van Wolfswinkel hasn''t scored in 26 games?  "Well that is one of the key definitions of a goal poacher ffs"You are the one that is claiming Van Wolfswinkel is a goal poacher, I am the one questioning whether he is a very good one. Van Wolfswinkel wrong place wrong time. But Le Fondre and Hernandez and Lineker are or were all dangerous anywhere in the 18 yard box.

"And how many genuine chances has RVW had this season to take those first time shots?"I should think he has wracked up quite a few good chances now in his 26 appearances actually, I think he has had half a dozen fantastic chances since his first goal, and probably another half a dozen half chances which he has fluffed or bottled.

"Because he''s not being asked to play as a poacher by Hughton, he''s

being asked to play as a target man instead. Look how often he has to

drop deep to even get a pass, so how can he be having to play deep AND

goal poach at the same time???"Oh look out a parrot. Are you just being terminally dim or what? I''ve already said that poachers play in a 4-4-2, and that''s why they are extinct, a walking contradiction you are.

"He''s spent the entire season making the runs to get into position and

consistently been ignored, I''m sure he''s got to the point where he

thinks he may as well just not bother if the team are simply going to

ignore his movement"Rubbish, I think his positioning and runs are poor, he often makes the wrong decision and he just doesn''t have that instict that predatory goalscorers need. Elmander gets into better positions more often than RVW. His lack of chances are partly his own fault, Elmander has missed several sitters but often being where Hooper or RVW should be if they are poachers.

"Actually, it''s just you that seems to have some odd Lineker fetish, I

simply feel that even players like Lineker or Inzaghi would struggle in

our current setup"I''m pretty certain that Lineker the world class poacher would have had a hatful in whatever team he played for because he did whatever it takes to score and was a ruthless finisher with a natural instinct. I don''t think we can describe RVW in those terms. "If you want another video to watch, then have a look on YouTube for some

of the Michael Owen compilations, note how the majority of those goals

came from a through ball past the defence so he could use his pace

behind them and score (even many of the finishes were somewhat powder

puff tbh)"No way, you aren''t seriously comparing Owen with RVW? Are you flippin serious? Owen was one of the fastest players around at his peak, RVW does not have the pace to break away and several times has messed up a one on one. RVW is NOT a Bellamy or an Owen, he doesn''t have the pace to play that way. Blimey what a muppet you really are.

[City 2nd 193]

Gingerpele wrote the following post at 2014-04-02 12:05 PM:

Our top scoring striker who hasn''t scored for over three months and looks even less confident because he''s missed at least thre, if not four, times as many quality chances as Wolfswinkle has all season since Boxing Day.

But let''s ignore that because Hooper is perfect and Wolsfwinkle is ***. Despite anyone with eyes and a three year olds understanding of football can see that''s not true.

That jus make you about - let me see - TWO!

Our top scoring striker who hasn''t scored for over three months - and RVW who hadn''t scored in over SEVEN months! At least Hooper has been in a position to actually miss!

[Juggy 0]

"who was that fat bloke who played up front for us last few seasons???"Grant Holt a poacher? I''ve heard it all now.

[Juggy 0]

"Also, why start a new thread"Woop, woop, it''s the sound of da forum police. Woop, woop, that''s the sound of the beast.

[Indy_Bones 444]

[quote user="Le Juge"]Woop, woop, it''s the sound of da forum police. Woop, woop, that''s the sound of the beast.[/quote]Woop, woop, it''s the sound of an mental incompetent who may actually talk more sense AFTER they''ve had a lobotomy - get yourself booked in ffs.Can''t be bothered to even try and debate things with people like you anymore, as you simply don''t listen to common sense or reason, and instead are posting just to try and reinforce your over-inflated view of your own ridiculous (and frequently baseless) opinions...

[Juggy 0]

In the past week we have seen you insist that you have seen players in the Norfolk sunday league who are better than Emile Heskey who played 19 seasons of Premier League football and now we are seeing you say that a striker with pretty much no pace needs through balls and balls over the top like Michael Owen, one of the fastest players in the world on his day, so that he can score one on ones.... and yet I''m the mental incompetent who needs a lobotomy. Good one!

[Indy_Bones 444]

[quote user="Le Juge"]now we are seeing you say that a striker with pretty much no pace needs through balls and balls over the top like Michael Owen, one of the fastest players in the world on his day, so that he can score one on ones.... and yet I''m the mental incompetent who needs a lobotomy. Good one![/quote]Yes, you are the mental incompetent, because that is NOT what I said.Try reading my post again you dumba$$ and then when you''ve finished eating a large slice of humble pie, you can admit you got it wrong.At no point did I directly compare RVW and Owen, I simply pointed out that Owen was prolific because Liverpool played the correct balls for his abilities, and that if instead they''d played him as a target man then he''d have been FAR less succesful.Clear enough at the second time of asking, or shall I carve it in large letters onto your a$$ for constant referral?

[Juggy 0]

I thought you weren''t going to debate with me? But whatever. Let''s just hope that if Hughton sticks by your man and leaves his top scorer on the bench we can find enough goals from Snodgrass and the rest of the midfielders to stay up.Five games away from matching Danny Grahams goal drought and I hope he doesn''t play enough to reach that milestone this season.