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Tim Dawson

Amazed everybody missed this......

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Like everyone else i was delighted getting a draw and felt a little robbed we didnt snatch a win, so this isnt a moaning thread just pointing something out.

Due to injuries to Snodgrass and Gutierrez it meant that Hughton had to play Pilkington and Redmond on the wings which was a huge success.

But i feel that had those two not been injured they would have started and i think with such a lack of pace in the side the result would have been much different.

So before people think Hughton is the messiah, the team sort of picked itself on saturday, be interesting to see who he picks tuesday night, personally id go with the same 11 but i dont think he will.

What it proved to me on saturday was that we do have the players to get us out of this mess but Hughton often fails to pick our best eleven, in the premiership pace is the key, please keep Redmond in and Pilks.

Tuesdays game won,t decide the season but a win would be huge and go a long way to getting those vital points on board, please Chris get your team selection right. OTBC

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I cannot deny it was a much more attacking lineup than I had imagined, who knows maybe the penny with drop with Hughton at last that if the ball is at the other end of the pitch you cannot concede a goal.

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Snodgrass has been very in effective this season. When his finish matches his pace and ball skills Redmond will be the complete wide player.. Open mind about the new man as yet.

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[quote user="Tim Dawson"].

So before people think Hughton is the messiah,[/quote]A bizarre concept to grasp on a Monday morning, Tim.I doubt if even the most dyed in the wool ''Inners'' like Lakey, KTF, Beefy and Nige see CH as having messainic properties.In fact I''d still say that the vast majority feel that he''s not the messiah...he''s a very naughty boy.

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Snodgrass can be good and he can also be ineffective.  As for picking Pilks and Redmond as the two wide men, that has always been an option but has been difficult to occur, largely because Pilks hasn''t been available a lot of the time, neither of course has E. Bennett.   So the pressure has been on Snodgrass and Redmond perhaps more so than it would have otherwise been.  The four wide men and of course Murphy, are a good mixture. But we have been hampered this season with injuries in that department.

Would agree though, Redmond and Pilks are best two wide options, when fit.

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I think your wrong.

When hughton plays 2 upfront he tends to go for snodgrass/Jonas and even fer wide. He likes the stability it provides defensively.

Playing 3 in midfield Johnson/Howson/fer/tettey allows him to play quicker more direct wide players because he feels he''s got adequate cover from the central players.

Redmond would have started anyway IMO, pilks still doesn''t look fit and snodgrass had his best game at Cardiff.

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Not a moaning thread?

So we can now add "The team picked itself" to "Player rebellion" and "We were lucky"

Give the guy some credit FFS.

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There were echoes of our Manure victory in 2005 when worthy stumbled on a winning forumla and we nearly pulled off a great escape.

 

The same team has to start tomorrow, with snoddy and jonas on the bench if fit,   as the side looked balanced across the middle, secure at the back and had pace to attack.      Whether we can convert that into a real goal threat is another matter (while scoring 4 away could happen its really only the overstated euphoria from sat talking) 

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So the logic seems to be... Hughton was limited by injuries so had to play Pilks/Redmond on the flanks.  They both did well.

 

If he had been able to choose Snoddy/Jonas, in the OP''s view he would have and the OP''s guess is that lineup would not have done as well.  So, starting with the conclusing that Hughton''s choice of team wouldn''t have done so well, the OP comes to the conclusion that Hughton shouldn''t get credit for the good performance on Saturday - because Hughton''s choice of team would not have done so well.

 

Talk about circular logic.

 

For me the interesting thing is that Redmond especially has a reputation as a player who''s not as good defensively.  Personally I think he does very well defensively.  you have to accept that when he''s going forward, he leaves a gap behind him which is unavoidable - he can''t be in two places at the same time (nor can Russell Martin).  But when we don''t have the ball and Redmond is playing defensively, he does well IMO.

 

Also a great moment when he received the ball with Kompany right on his back (I think it was Kompany) - it looked like a boy vs man contest with Redmond having no chance, but he shielded the ball for a second and then did a magical turn which left Kompany for dead - superb even before you think that Kompany is one of the best defenders in the world.  Got to say he''s learning how to play in the Prem.

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I am a huge fan of young Redmond.....but an on form Snodgrass is for me a better option right now, and he was getting close to some very decent form. Now, longer term when Redmond''s decision making and final delivery improve (and they will),it will be no contest as he should then be pushing for an England starting place......I give him another full season and he will be a major threat and not just because he has pace.

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Cmon Morty we both know the team sort of picked itself this week due to who was fit and available, Hughton has stuck by Snodgrass this season when at times he needed to be taken off or rested.

I will give Hughton some credit if he keeps a similar side ( injuries prohibiting) and gives West Ham away a go, at Cardiff we were unfortunate but had things been changed earlier i think 3 points never mind one could have been taken.

As for Hughton i hope he keeps us up as we all do, but id like to think McNally is looking at other options for season 14-15, oh and we were not lucky Saturday and the player rebellion thing is a non-starter, our tactics may frustrate our players but i have no doubt they like and respect the man.

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Teams "picking themselves" has gone on for ever. And I entirely agree that had Snodgrass been fit he would have started. I don''t think it is one to bash the manager over, but equally sometimes this things need to happen to make a successful change. I''m not sure that CH knows his best team , but that''s another matter altogether.

 

I''m always reminded of the World Cup in Mexico in 1986. England had a terrible start under Bobby Robson. After losing to Portugal ( who were nothing like they were in the time of Ronaldo etc) and drawing with Morocco all looked bleak. Robson however was forced to make changes as the hapless Butch Wilkins got a red card and Robson got injured (again) , and we murdered Poland. we went on the lose to the Hand of God. but actually we were terrible up until the point that these enforced changes were made. Beardsley, Hodge were revelations, Hoddle stopped being asked to hump the ball at Hateley , and they played the ball on the deck. It was brilliant. Would Robson have made these changes ? No chance. I would never have dropped Wilkins or "Captain Marvel" in a million years.

 

Since then Robson was lauded as one of the greatest England managers.  

 

Tomorrow night will give us all the benefit of hindsight! Stick Snoddy and Gutierrez back in and lose , and I will think the OP might be right!

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What I couldn''t work out was which wings they played on.

Pilks started on the right and Redders on the left. Redders very early on skinned the Man City right back and I thought then that we would be in for an interesting afternoon.

Pilks & Redders then swapped wings, all very good I thought, swap back & forth during the game, I''m in favor of that. BUT they didn''t swap back, Redders was on the right wing for the rest of the game.

I''m convinced he is stronger and more dangerous on the left wing, not sure why they changed like that?

Could have been decided between themselves?

Could have been instruction from the bench? After all, Snoddy is played on the ''wrong'' side.

Anyone have any suggestions, is it something I''ve missed?

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[quote user="Vaughans Stiff Upper Lip"]I think your wrong.

When hughton plays 2 upfront he tends to go for snodgrass/Jonas and even fer wide. He likes the stability it provides defensively.

Playing 3 in midfield Johnson/Howson/fer/tettey allows him to play quicker more direct wide players because he feels he''s got adequate cover from the central players.

Redmond would have started anyway IMO, pilks still doesn''t look fit and snodgrass had his best game at Cardiff.[/quote]

 

I would agree with this. But two other contributing factors on Saturday were Tettey winning possession higher up the pitch and with Yobo beside Bassong the back four were always trying to take a step forward rather than a step back. We played more positively throughout the team. Until we saw how ineffective two up front was all the criticism of Hughton was about not playing it. Now you never see threads demanding two up front.

 

We don''t have to look at every decision Hughton makes with an "I know best attitude". He didn''t fluke that system on Saturday. He''s tried it before many times. The players were more positive this time I believe for the reasons I posted above. But Tettey and Yobo are both Hughton signings anyway. I can''t help wondering if we''d been more positive had we signed the centreback we were after in the summer.

 

 

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[quote user="The Voice Of Reason"]What I couldn''t work out was which wings they played on.

Pilks started on the right and Redders on the left. Redders very early on skinned the Man City right back and I thought then that we would be in for an interesting afternoon.

Pilks & Redders then swapped wings, all very good I thought, swap back & forth during the game, I''m in favor of that. BUT they didn''t swap back, Redders was on the right wing for the rest of the game.

I''m convinced he is stronger and more dangerous on the left wing, not sure why they changed like that?

Could have been decided between themselves?

Could have been instruction from the bench? After all, Snoddy is played on the ''wrong'' side.

Anyone have any suggestions, is it something I''ve missed?[/quote]

 

They did swap back a couple of times. Hence Ruddy''s confusion when putting the ball down for goal kicks.

 

 

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[quote user="GPB"]

Teams "picking themselves" has gone on for ever. And I entirely agree that had Snodgrass been fit he would have started. I don''t think it is one to bash the manager over, but equally sometimes this things need to happen to make a successful change. I''m not sure that CH knows his best team , but that''s another matter altogether.

I''m always reminded of the World Cup in Mexico in 1986. England had a terrible start under Bobby Robson. After losing to Portugal ( who were nothing like they were in the time of Ronaldo etc) and drawing with Morocco all looked bleak. Robson however was forced to make changes as the hapless Butch Wilkins got a red card and Robson got injured (again) , and we murdered Poland. we went on the lose to the Hand of God. but actually we were terrible up until the point that these enforced changes were made. Beardsley, Hodge were revelations, Hoddle stopped being asked to hump the ball at Hateley , and they played the ball on the deck. It was brilliant. Would Robson have made these changes ? No chance. I would never have dropped Wilkins or "Captain Marvel" in a million years.

Since then Robson was lauded as one of the greatest England managers.  

Tomorrow night will give us all the benefit of hindsight! Stick Snoddy and Gutierrez back in and lose , and I will think the OP might be right!

[/quote]

Ah, Mexico ''86.  If we''d beaten Argentina, I think we''d have gone on to win it.  But there you go.

 

Very true about tomorrow evening... Stick or twist.  Some hard decisions especially with only 2 days between the games.   Wish I could get there.

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Don`t want to say i told you so but Snodgrass straight back in for Pilks, then needed subbing but no takes Redmond off who had been an excellent outlet all game.

Unlucky tonight- yes no doubt, but once again Hughton changed a formula from saturday, sad to say we are going down with him in charge and our incredible bad luck

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Not usually one for bashing Snoddy, but he was woeful today. Missed a sitter and gave the ball away numerous times out wide when he delayed putting a ball in.

I was perplexed why Pilkington was dropped after the Man City game where I thought he was superb and surprised more so when he came on for Redderz and not Snoddy.

The fact Snoddy has come from being ''give or take'' to overcome injury, to walking into an in-form players position for 90 mins makes me a bit suspicious about what leverage he has over Hughton...

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You are right Herts canary, i don`t recall Snodgrass being subbed at all this season, is it in his contract or is Hughton just blind to his form ??

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Drives me crazy that he still won''t make changes that change the way we play. Sure use the wings and try the wingers but after the same old story unfolds of good positions and plays but no goals, CHANGE it ffs! Bring on Hoolahan, try and play through the middle and around the box, try something different. It took the BBC to point out that 60 substitutions over the season have yielded 0 goals and 0 assists from the players brought on. Make that 63 after tonight.

That is damning.

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I would guess A1 canary that it might even be some sort of record, Wolfswinkel for Hooper and Pilks for Snodgrass were the obvious choices , as you say Wes for Fer may have mixed it up a bit too

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Please don''t call Snodgrass a winger. All night long he crowded out his own team mates and took their space. Too often he was in or near the penalty area closing the game down, denying space for the midfield three to attack.

The need for a wide outlet was evident almost all match. It was highlighted deep into injury time when Fer picked the ball up on the edge of their box and wanted to play it wide so that it could be crossed in. He was unable to as, once more, Snodgrass had dragged his full back into the area closing down the space for us to attack.

I recognise Snodgrass''s ability, but not as a right winger. Perhaps Gordon Strachan also realises that there is a better place to play him as he plays him centrally for Scotland.

After having a very well balanced, pacy attack against Manchester City we reverted to one which, apart from some of the first half, played our most dangerous player on that performance, on the opposite flank.

Even though Redmond played well tonight and looked dangerous I, for one, would have been far happier to have seen him in the same position as he was for most of the Man City match. Instead Pilkington, who I thought benefited from the match on Saturday was dropped, and Redmond moved to the left to bring in a player who did not play in a good team performance and who ultimately changed the attacking set up of the team.

Snodgrass should not be blamed for this as he doesn''t pick the team ............. or does he?

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I''ve said before that I don''t like to criticize any of our players, but Snodgrass unbalances the team and the result tonight was all too predictable. CH is taking us down I''m afraid, unless a miracle happens and he wakes the F up and drops Snoddy and Jonas to the bench (and not just because they are injured) and he plays Pilkington and Redmond as against Man City.

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