Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Matt Morriss

Laughable Hughton Apologists

Recommended Posts

I''ve read a lot of tripe the last couple of days since the West Ham debacle, and I find it utterly laughable that people are still trying to defend Hughton.

I know everyone is entitled to their opinion and thats exactly what this board is for, but equally I''m entitled to disagree with that opinion as much as people are with mine.

There has been various mutterings that Hughtons sub''s had no impact on the loss and its not his fault the strikers are misfiring.

Let''s get one thing straight here, the buck stops with the manager. If the team aren''t playing well its the managers fault. If strikers miss, continuously, its the managers fault. I dont buy this once they cross the white line rubbish.

It was 100% Hughtons fault we lost on Tuesday. The sub''s killed our attacking momentum and gave the home side a shot in the arm. With our two most dangerous players off the field, the two West Ham would deem most likely to hurt them, they could move further up the pitch and focus more on attacking. Which they did.

The fact were missing chances is down to the previous 18 months of negative football resulting in not many chances. Were now relying on players to take there chances when it matters when the reality is they are rusty in that area.

Would you have expect a striker, starved of chances and practice in front of goal in big game moments to suddenly start finishing 100% with the couple of chances he''s now getting?

Yes were creating more, but the players are rusty in those situations and under a lot of pressure to take them.

End of the day this is all down to Hughton. The buck stops with the manager. Man City he got it right and we were brilliant. Cardiff and West Ham and the games we''ve failed to muster more than one shot on target he got it wrong.

He''s been getting it wrong for too long now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Excellent post HB-M. It''s ironic that a few months ago the people you refer to were claiming we all had it wrong, and it''s facts/results, not conjecture that was the correct path to take.Now, all of a sudden, the mantra has changed. Recent results/facts are passé. It''s now all down to ''belief'', ''faith'' and , it seems to me ,blind hope that we should be talking about.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
"It was 100% Hughtons fault we lost on Tuesday. The sub''s killed our attacking momentum and gave the home side a shot in the arm. With our two most dangerous players off the field, the two West Ham would deem most likely to hurt them, they could move further up the pitch and focus more on attacking. Which they did.

The fact were missing chances is down to the previous 18 months of negative football resulting in not many chances. Were now relying on players to take there chances when it matters when the reality is they are rusty in that area. "

I agree with both of these points.I want us to develop into a well organised good footballing side with stability. I want CH to be the man to do it but was agast at his substitutions on Tuesday. Someone said on the radio recently that the difference between a manager and a coach is the decision making before and during a game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just to add, This was not the first time that I have been surprised by the timings or player choice of his substitutions. Also I had hoped that it would n''t have taken until February to start playing better football although Tettys return has been crucial tbf.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
There are some seriously deluded people on here. I work regularly with some top professional coaches and if I ever dare suggest that my performance is down to anything but myself they just give me a knowing look. At a professional level the performance is down to the individual not the coach.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="T"]There are some seriously deluded people on here. I work regularly with some top professional coaches and if I ever dare suggest that my performance is down to anything but myself they just give me a knowing look. At a professional level the performance is down to the individual not the coach.[/quote]erm...if that''s the case, then why bother with coaches at all.A bit like saying that an orchestra can perform without the conductor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The key part of the OP for me is that this has been going on too long. Sad, but oh so true now. If there was a sign that new ideas were tried, a positive approach when needed was sought after and that we were giving complete, 90 min performances, then I could have some sympathy with Hughton.

But far too many times, our downfall in games has been down to his decisions. The epitomy of this was Tuesday night. Please please someone try and defend those substitutions. Is there anyone in the world that can understand what was going through his mind? Was he really trying to play for a draw with no outlet whatsoever from their attacks? Let''s not forget they''d had their moments in the game as well so making the changes he did was always going to end up with a lot of pressure on our defence in the last 10mins. A defence that had Redmond relieving the pressure.

This is not a bad run anymore, bad luck or injuries can''t be an excuse.

We''ve played some fantastic football recently. In many games we''ve been unlucky, but how long can we keep saying that. A manager and a team has to make their own luck, go for it when they need to and take a risk. It''s what makes football exciting and can get you results. I would take a scrappy, poor performance and win - but they''re drying up as well. So with neither entertaining or disappointing wins occurring, the rot has been setting in for too long.

I was proud to be watching us get the ball down and play against the hoof of West Ham. The commentators were applauding our endeavour and link up around the box. The game was ours to lose, and that''s what we did. We lost the game and gave them (most probably) survival for another season. That was a very poor West Ham side and we gifted them 3 points - and it''s simply infuriating that so many of us could see what was happening when the subs were made except the one man that needed to.

Unfortunately tues night wasn''t an isolated case. For too long we''ve been ''unlucky Norwich'', or ''disappointing Norwich'', or ''can''t score Norwich'' and now, too often ''woeful Norwich''. Forget the ''it''s too late now'', it''s time for a change.

Rant over, needed to get tues night out of my system.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You use coaches because you can''t see yourself from an external perspective but the feedback I get from professional coaches is all pretty much the same regardless of the coach - ultimately the athlete has to perform and they can only work with the material available. A top professional coach is a top professional coach. I''ve tried thanking coaches for improving my performance and their universal response is you did yourself not me. Anyone involved in coaching knows the performance is primarily down to the individual not the coach. The criticism of CH is an open admission of not understanding sport to anyone involved in sport coaching, the ignorance of which is just compounded by the abuse that accompanies it, whose emotional just confirms that the individual does not have enough understanding to argue a point logically.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well each to their own on what''s laughable...

 

What I find laughable is that after watching a game on Tuesday, where we created plenty of good goal scoring chances and players like Hooper and Snoddy had some bad misses, then West Ham scored from a goalkeeping blunder on a cross after having a minimal threat all game, and there are so many on here who say this is all not the fault of the players who made those mistakes but the fault of the manager instead.

 

In the real world I think a manager in any organization has an important influence on performance... but the people actually doing the job make or break it in the end.  Football is no different, especially because games come down to a few key moments.

 

But like you say, it''s all about opinions. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Indeed ICF, CH critics abuse demonstrates that they know very little about sport coaching but also management. I know I can do everything I possible I can to direct my team but ultimately I''m only as good or bad as my team.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="T"]There are some seriously deluded people on here. I work regularly with some top professional coaches and if I ever dare suggest that my performance is down to anything but myself they just give me a knowing look. At a professional level the performance is down to the individual not the coach.[/quote]Really!? You''ve never mentioned this is any of your previous posts!? You should have said! One thing i will give you credit for T, with your massively over inflated ego, delusions of grandeur, and continual pomposity, you make Ricardo seem positively modest and almost likeable, and that is some achievement. Well done you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If the players aren''t good enough (as seems to be being suggested), then who''s fault is that?

Who scouted them? who bought them? who trained them? who picked them? The buck has to end somewhere.

I fully believe we have a strong enough squad to ultimately survive in the premier league. We were certainly the better team for 80 mins on Tuesday night. A better team that were then shackled by a tactical change. I''m not saying they wouldn''t have scored anyway if those subs had never happened, but it''s far more unlikely the way the game had been for 80 mins previously.

I''m also not talking about one isolated game. If the players have to take responsibility for every poor performance and result and not the manager, then what the hell are they doing at the club in one of the biggest leagues in the world.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
"ndeed ICF, CH critics abuse demonstrates that they know very little about sport coaching but also management. I know I can do everything I possible I can to direct my team but ultimately I''m only as good or bad as my team."

This is the team that he has built, orgainsed,picked and chosen which changes to make in personnel and tactics during the game.

Other than that your bumptious drivel may contain a relevent point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It''s true I work with some highly respected coaches who have formed my opinions but I never said I''m a top athlete! Ricardo happens to be one of the top posters on here. The reason for my position is the unnecessary obnoxious abuse aimed at the manager which is clearly based on ignorance to anyone with any experience of professional coaching or working in the football business professionally.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Indeed CH is heavily involved but the quality of players is ultimately determined by the the budget and CH has consistently outperformed his budget.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote user="T"]You use coaches because you can''t see yourself from an external perspective but the feedback I get from professional coaches is all pretty much the same regardless of the coach - ultimately the athlete has to perform and they can only work with the material available. A top professional coach is a top professional coach. I''ve tried thanking coaches for improving my performance and their universal response is you did yourself not me. Anyone involved in coaching knows the performance is primarily down to the individual not the coach. The criticism of CH is an open admission of not understanding sport to anyone involved in sport coaching, the ignorance of which is just compounded by the abuse that accompanies it, whose emotional just confirms that the individual does not have enough understanding to argue a point logically.[/quote]

That is one of your better ones T

So a coach has no effect on the person or team they coach.

Tactics, methods, perfecting styles ,honing reflexes etc etc. The list is endless.

Just ask Murray what effect Ivan has had on his performances over the last 2 years.

One of the main things a GOOD coach instills is confidence  in the individual/team he coaches.

Thus they would be hardly likely to say "nothing to do with you it''s all me isn''t it".

CH may be a good coach, but a good manager, I think that is a more relevant question

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Butler, I did not say that - I''ve definitely found a benefit from working with professional coaches but I find very little difference between them - I''ve discussed it with them and it comes down to personal preference and none of them can make me a top athlete - ultimately it''s down to the athlete not the coach otherwise clubs would spend all their money on coaches not players and Fergie would not have bought Ronaldo and Rooney. Of course the coach has an influence but there is very little difference between top professional coaches.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Buzz Killington"]I strongly disagree with the statement that CH has consistently outperformed his budget. Weren''t we the 9th highest spending team in the summer, or something?[/quote]We were the 9th highest net spenders in Europe. The more generally accepted figure to go by is spending on wages, but even that needs to be viewed cautiously. It is by no means a perfect guide. And even so, as to where we stand in the wage table for this season that is unknown. The only available comparitive figures are for the Lambert season, and so not much use. That said, it is likely Hughton outperformed purely in terms of wages last season. Whether he will this season we shall see.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
We may well have spent a lot this year on transfer fees after 2 years being legally obliged to pay off our debts in the previous 2 seasons but overall/wage budget has been about 19th as most other clubs are larger or subsidised by wealthy benefactors. As Malky said the other day 8m does not guarantee you a prem quality striker

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote user="T"]Butler, I did not say that - I''ve definitely found a benefit from working with professional coaches but I find very little difference between them - I''ve discussed it with them and it comes down to personal preference and none of them can make me a top athlete - ultimately it''s down to the athlete not the coach otherwise clubs would spend all their money on coaches not players and Fergie would not have bought Ronaldo and Rooney. Of course the coach has an influence but there is very little difference between top professional coaches.[/quote]

I accept that you are not a top athlete at the summit of your proffesion

Our team are or should be.

What makes a good maanager is the ability to get that last bit of "something" from those in his charge.

At the level we should be at, that little something is the difference between winning and loosing.

That is what seems missing at the moment, the sparkle the oomph that will ultimately see us survive or be relegated.

If CH can suddenly find the sparkle after 2 years without it then he will in deed surprise many and confound most.[:D]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Butler I would fundamentally agree with you - it''s the people who are abusive and lay all the blame at CH that my response is a reaction to - life simply is not like that. Of course the manager has an influence but the margins are fine but in the case of NCFC could well be critical. Unfortunately, ever other team is trying to do exactly the same and there is no manager of the teams that Norwich are competing against who have managed to consistently do as you and I both want for NCFC this season so it is easier said than done.

We don''t know the figures for this season yet but what we do know is that only Palace and WBA along with NCFC don''t benefit from having wealthy owners.

And my private involvement in coaching and my professional involvement in football are 2 different things.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="The Butler"]I accept that you are not a top athlete at the summit of your proffesion

Our team are or should be.

What makes a good maanager is the ability to get that last bit of "something" from those in his charge.

At the level we should be at, that little something is the difference between winning and loosing.

That is what seems missing at the moment, the sparkle the oomph that will ultimately see us survive or be relegated.

If CH can suddenly find the sparkle after 2 years without it then he will in deed surprise many and confound most.[:D]

[/quote]Indeed, TB. There seems to be a slight confusion here, which I am sure in entirely accidental, through the synonymous but misleading use of "coach" and "manager". There is the world of difference between a coach working with individual players, either amateurs or professionals and either in  a team sport or a solo sport, such as squash, for example, and a manager of a professional  team sport.It is true there is a limit to how much the coach can effect individual improvements. Players can only become so much better. But the ways in which a professional football manager can bring about overall improvements and make a club more sucessful are numerous and too obvious to need repeating. If that wasn''t the case then clubs would not pay vast sums of money in wages to the better managers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Indeed PC but when competing against teams who are also paying for top managers the difference a new mgr can make is limited. They have all done the same mgr and coaching courses. Poyet has got Sunderland performing in line with where they should be and the managers who have performed better this season are the organised defensive mgrs like Bruce and Pulis as according to the BBC report this is the most effective approach.Ironic. I''d say none of the bottom 11 team fans are happy other than Palace so the problem is with fans expectations rather than the managers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It''s fair to mention the money paid to PL managers as a sign they are important.  But a lot more is paid in player wages. 

 

Recently there has been a bit of a re-balancing with coaches like Mourinho able to command salaries comparable with top players.  But I think most clubs still pay more to their top striker in wages by himself than they do to their manager. 

 

If it was really true that the manager is more imporant than the players, you''d see clubs paying a large chunk of their wage budget to the manager alone, which never happens.  If you look at the money it shows their real priority is the players'' wages which is what they view as more important.

 

Also our level of transfer spending last summer is a red herring because there is little link between transfer spending and performance on the pitch, also of course we are competing mainly with Prem teams who have built up their teams over a longer period and one summer of spending doesn''t overcome that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Based on recent performances Including West Ham. There is nothing wrong with the confidence e of our players. Tactics are fine. Individual errors are our downfall and that is because we have good players but not true premier league players . You have to pay four times what we do for players who have true consistancy.

Saying our players are rusty in front of goal is rubbish. They play week in week out and practice most days.

There are so many on here who talk as if we are already down. It is in our hands. We will stay up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="T"]Indeed PC but when competing against teams who are also paying for top managers the difference a new mgr can make is limited. They have all done the same mgr and coaching courses. Poyet has got Sunderland performing in line with where they should be and the managers who have performed better this season are the organised defensive mgrs like Bruce and Pulis as according to the BBC report this is the most effective approach.Ironic. I''d say none of the bottom 11 team fans are happy other than Palace so the problem is with fans expectations rather than the managers.[/quote]T, the fact that fans, including those of Norwich City, have unrealistic expectations doesn''t mean they are wrong to be unhappy. That only means they may be more unhappy than they should be and at least partly for the wrong reason. Some managers just aren''t very good, no matter how many coaching courses they take. And, as you said in an earlier post:"Of course the manager has an influence but the margins are fine but in the case of NCFC could well be critical."Precisely. These fine margins you admit are there, ie a few points either way, are critical for a club of our limited means, and could send us down this season. That is the point sensible anti-Hughton posters have been making all along - that a club like ours, with our lack of financial backing, needs a manager who will get the very best out of the squad at hand. Even Hughton supporters admit he isn''t doing that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...