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Reggie Strayshun

Manager change does not work....

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Direct quote from Pat Nevin in the wake of Sunderland''s FA Cup victory earlier today.

"It''s becoming a good season for Sunderland. What a difference Gus Poyet

has made. There''s a belief throughout the team, and they were easily

the better side today. Sunderland simply, wanted it more."

Just saying, like.....

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Some manager changes work - Poyet so far.

Some manager changes don''t work - Mulensteen.

The issue always is whether the Board think that the new man they are getting in is better than the bloke they''re getting rid of. Which is exactly what McNally said in his recent interview.

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[quote user="Reggie Strayshun"]Direct quote from Pat Nevin in the wake of Sunderland''s FA Cup victory earlier today.

"It''s becoming a good season for Sunderland. What a difference Gus Poyet

has made. There''s a belief throughout the team, and they were easily

the better side today. Sunderland simply, wanted it more."

Just saying, like.....[/quote]Reggie, I think that is what''s known as pushing at an open door. The mantra about managerial change never working has been quite exploded, and as a result has disappeared from this message-board. Not before time. The only mistake would be to replace it with a mantra that managerial change always works.

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When nine managers change you can''t really prove the case one way or another. For some it may work for others it may not. Even if every team improves three teams are still going to be relegated.

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Having just watched this game I don''t think you can use this as an example of how great changing your manager is.

That Sunderland wanted this game more than Southampton is of little doubt....... because Southampton set out and played like a team simply not interested.

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Fair enough. It was kind of a whimsical, rhetorical question. Everyone knows my views on this subject, and, Purple, I do not agree with you that the question of whether managerial change works on this board is a dead duck. There are still plenty who deny it.What was interesting in McN''s interview was when asked about this very subject he seemed to imply that if the right candidate was available he would not hesitate to make a change . Clearly he does not feel that , given the right circumstances, a change would be too much of a gamble to make. He also said that keeping Hughton was as much of a gamble, and he appeared not to be wholly convinced that he would be any more likely to deliver.

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[quote user="Reggie Strayshun"]Fair enough. It was kind of a whimsical, rhetorical question. Everyone knows my views on this subject, and, Purple, I do not agree with you that the question of whether managerial change works on this board is a dead duck. There are still plenty who deny it.What was interesting in McN''s interview was when asked about this very subject he seemed to imply that if the right candidate was available he would not hesitate to make a change . Clearly he does not feel that , given the right circumstances, a change would be too much of a gamble to make. He also said that keeping Hughton was as much of a gamble, and he appeared not to be wholly convinced that he would be any more likely to deliver.[/quote]

That is absolutely  right.  Its a lottery as to whether keeping Hughton or getting someone else in would be better.  That is why it is so unrealistic for fans to be so sure that a change would be a good thing.   No one can know for sure.  But McNally explained what is plain to see - that there have been encouraging signs recently  and the group are tight knit and working hard for each other - and that is why Hughton is staying.

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[quote user="lake district canary"]  That is why it is so unrealistic for fans to be so sure that a change would be a good thing.  

[/quote]No, not unrealistic, Lakey. I''ll agree that there are differering points of view on the matter, but it''s disengenious of you to say that it''s unrealistic. Your view is that Hughton will produce the goods and it would be too much of a gamble to change . My view, and that of hundreds (thousands ?) of others is the opposite. It is not ''unrealistic''. Just a different view to yours.Not the same thing.

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[quote user="Reggie Strayshun"]Fair enough. It was kind of a whimsical, rhetorical question. Everyone knows my views on this subject, and, Purple, I do not agree with you that the question of whether managerial change works on this board is a dead duck. There are still plenty who deny it.What was interesting in McN''s interview was when asked about this very subject he seemed to imply that if the right candidate was available he would not hesitate to make a change . Clearly he does not feel that , given the right circumstances, a change would be too much of a gamble to make. He also said that keeping Hughton was as much of a gamble, and he appeared not to be wholly convinced that he would be any more likely to deliver.[/quote]

Spot on Reggie, I tend to think that had there been a decent candidate to take the reins in December we would have acted. However as DM intermated, whilst they apparently have a plan B should we need it, there was nobody really available (at that time) with whom they felt confident enough

to take us forward. Thus to make the change it would have been a gamble we weren''t prepared to make.

In hindsight, personally I wish we had gone for Poyet as he seems to get teams to play decent football but, as he was unproven in the Pl that would have been a gamble.

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Much surely depends on the quality and approach of the former manager and those of the new manager, surely?

The former Sunderland manager was a difficult personality, his replacement more normal.

The new Everton manager, needed because Moyes moved to MU, seems to be doing well with reasonably limited resources, as does the new Liverpool manager.

It can be a disaster to replace a manager, especially if he leaves a disillusioned squad, and with an awkward owner. In our case it appears that Hughton is a pleasant personality, and the doubts are about his ability. If the doubts rest on firm foundation, then he will be replaced at some point, but the hot debate will be about the next few weeks.

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[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="Reggie Strayshun"]Direct quote from Pat Nevin in the wake of Sunderland''s FA Cup victory earlier today.

"It''s becoming a good season for Sunderland. What a difference Gus Poyet

has made. There''s a belief throughout the team, and they were easily

the better side today. Sunderland simply, wanted it more."

Just saying, like.....[/quote]Reggie, I think that is what''s known as pushing at an open door. The mantra about managerial change never working has been quite exploded, and as a result has disappeared from this message-board. Not before time. The only mistake would be to replace it with a mantra that managerial change always works.[/quote]There never was a mantra that it doesn''t work, only that it makes no difference.Palace, Sunderland one side, Fulham, Cardiff the other.You spend your money and take your chance.Sometimes right, sometimes wrong and whatever happens those that changed and are saved will think they did the right thing. While those that changed and are still relegated will wonder why they bothered.

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[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="Reggie Strayshun"]Direct quote from Pat Nevin in the wake of Sunderland''s FA Cup victory earlier today.

"It''s becoming a good season for Sunderland. What a difference Gus Poyet

has made. There''s a belief throughout the team, and they were easily

the better side today. Sunderland simply, wanted it more."

Just saying, like.....[/quote]Reggie, I think that is what''s known as pushing at an open door. The mantra about managerial change never working has been quite exploded, and as a result has disappeared from this message-board. Not before time. The only mistake would be to replace it with a mantra that managerial change always works.[/quote]There never was a mantra that it doesn''t work, only that it makes no difference.Palace, Sunderland one side, Fulham, Cardiff the other.You spend your money and take your chance.Sometimes right, sometimes wrong and whatever happens those that changed and are saved will think they did the right thing. While those that changed and are still relegated will wonder why they bothered.

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[quote user="ricardo"]Sometimes right, sometimes wrong and whatever happens those that changed and are saved will think they did the right thing. While those that changed and are still relegated will wonder why they bothered.[/quote]Hmm.....doesn''t really stand up to scrutiny though, does it, Rick?It totally depends on the circumstances. In short, it pivots on how desperate you are . If you are 10 points adrift in March, then , frankly, major change is not really a gamble. You have nothing to lose. You''re likely as not relegated anyway . If it does not work, then people are not going to say "why did we bother?" They are going to say "we gave it our best shot, but sadly it was too little too late" .Now I''m not for one minute saying that Norwich are currently in that predicament. But, I''m hoping to God that we do not get ourselves into such a scenario by late March/April and are left wondering what might have been.

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[quote user="ricardo"][quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="Reggie Strayshun"]Direct quote from Pat Nevin in the wake of Sunderland''s FA Cup victory earlier today.

"It''s becoming a good season for Sunderland. What a difference Gus Poyet

has made. There''s a belief throughout the team, and they were easily

the better side today. Sunderland simply, wanted it more."

Just saying, like.....[/quote]Reggie, I think that is what''s known as pushing at an open door. The mantra about managerial change never working has been quite exploded, and as a result has disappeared from this message-board. Not before time. The only mistake would be to replace it with a mantra that managerial change always works.[/quote]There never was a mantra that it doesn''t work, only that it makes no difference.[/quote]How is not working different from making no difference?

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" do not agree with you that the question of whether managerial change works on this board is a dead duck. There are still plenty who deny it."

IMO the argument that "managerial change works" is as dead as "managerial change does not work" - there is evidence to support both views - and their is certainly enough evidence to trash any argument based around "management change always works" or "management change never works"

So it seems to be to be a gamble, and those who are most desperate are most likely to give it a shot. For some - Sunderland and Palace - what''s to lose... but for others like Fulham, West Brom or Cardiff ....

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[quote user="Reggie Strayshun"][quote user="ricardo"]Sometimes right, sometimes wrong and whatever happens those that changed and are saved will think they did the right thing. While those that changed and are still relegated will wonder why they bothered.[/quote]Hmm.....doesn''t really stand up to scrutiny though, does it, Rick?It totally depends on the circumstances. In short, it pivots on how desperate you are . If you are 10 points adrift in March, then , frankly, major change is not really a gamble. You have nothing to lose. You''re likely as not relegated anyway . If it does not work, then people are not going to say "why did we bother?" They are going to say "we gave it our best shot, but sadly it was too little too late" .Now I''m not for one minute saying that Norwich are currently in that predicament. But, I''m hoping to God that we do not get ourselves into such a scenario by late March/April and are left wondering what might have been.[/quote]That scenario is simply a recipe for any team that finds themselves near the bottom before the end of January to change their manager. It''s what we''ve had so far this year and just looks like desperation. You may as well just flip a coin.I don''t think anyone is going to be 10 points adrift at any stage Reg, it''s going to be a knife edge between a lot of clubs. If us and West Ham stay up there will a round of self congratulations for keeping their nerve. If Palace and Sunderland stay up they will be sure they did the right thing. With 12 games yet it would be a very brave man to name the three droppers.The only problem is that with so many clubs in the mix there will eventually be 3 clubs who will be second guessing themselves.

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[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="ricardo"][quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="Reggie Strayshun"]Direct quote from Pat Nevin in the wake of Sunderland''s FA Cup victory earlier today.

"It''s becoming a good season for Sunderland. What a difference Gus Poyet

has made. There''s a belief throughout the team, and they were easily

the better side today. Sunderland simply, wanted it more."

Just saying, like.....[/quote]Reggie, I think that is what''s known as pushing at an open door. The mantra about managerial change never working has been quite exploded, and as a result has disappeared from this message-board. Not before time. The only mistake would be to replace it with a mantra that managerial change always works.[/quote]There never was a mantra that it doesn''t work, only that it makes no difference.[/quote]How is not working different from making no difference?[/quote]West Ham.

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Indeed. And for the three teams that do drop, whether they changed managers or stuck with what they had, there is no way they could know for certain that making a different choice would have changed their fate.

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I think a management change is more likely to be a positive thing where an existing manager has "lost the dressing room" and the players are no longer showing the desire to play on the pitch. That doesn''t appear to be the case with us as yet, I can''t see a change at the moment making a great deal of difference.

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Football is a financial and results business.......In any business if a manager underperforms and is costing that business lost revenue......Well, there''s only one alternative.......

 

Now, if the attendances at the ''business'' were to rapidly recede......the hierarchy  ''business heads'' would then certainly sit up and take notice....But, there is little chance of that occurring is there, as it didn''t occur when we hit rock bottom not so long ago? 

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Manager change likely doesn''t work when the manager isn''t the problem.

In our case, there is 16 or so months of evidence that suggests the manager IS the problem when you consider the squad he put together especially with the hi-octane summer signings.

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Houston Canary wrote the following post at 15/02/2014 4:58 PM:

Manager change likely doesn''t work when the manager isn''t the problem.

In our case, there is 16 or so months of evidence that suggests the manager IS the problem when you consider the squad he put together especially with the hi-octane summer signings.

Houston are you saying he has put a poor squad together or are you saying he has put a good squad together but is unable to manage them?

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I''d day when you can''t score and your leaking silly goals.... then a change of manager certainly wouldn''t do any harm.!! poyet was mentioned by quite a few on here also pulis "OMG pulis, you''ve gone mad he''s rubbish just look how stoke played under him" was the scream from the inners. Well at least we''ll get to see if palace stabilise in the prem, while we hope to gain promotion. If we lose the next 3-4 then it''s game over. Players heads will go down (even more) and if coco makes anymore crippling subs like the west ham game then we''re screwed. Nothing sunk into him all season and last so I''m staggered that some think we''re going to rock up with a plan a,b and c all of a sudden.

I can understand hoping we do but some genuinely believe he''s suddenly turned into a winner but history states otherwise with him.

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[quote user="ricardo"]That scenario is simply a recipe for any team that finds themselves near the bottom before the end of January to change their manager. It''s what we''ve had so far this year and just looks like desperation. You may as well just flip a coin.I don''t think anyone is going to be 10 points adrift at any stage Reg, [/quote]Don''t see what relevance that is Ricardo. That''s why I mentioned "March". You said that people would say ''why did we bother?'' and I was merely quoting a scenario where that would not apply.And I''m not suggesting that anyone is likely to be 10 pts adrift. But again just illustrating how your'' it doesn''t make any difference'' is far from being a watertight case.

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It''s a case of do I feel luckySometimes there''s a bullet left in the chamber, sometimes there isn''t.Cardiff fired their bullet when Malky could only manage a .9 pts per game average. Since then OGS has managed .66 pts per game.West Ham didn''t fire the gun and at the same time OGS was appointed at Cardiff and Big Sam had only managed .75 pts per game. Since that stay of execution he has managed 2.1 pts per game.Roll the dice, flip the coin, fire the gun, there is as much chance of winning as of losing.

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These debates about if a change of manager would be a good thing or not are utterly pointless and getting rather borinng. Who thee hell knows if keeping Hughton or scking Hughton would be the best result for Norwich with 12 games to go? It''s pointless as each side ca only guess! We don''t kow how many wins or points we will pick up and where we finish will be where the players and manager deserve to after 38 games.

 

Thee only question to be asked is based on what we know now and that is Hughtons record to date the performance and how we feel he is doing to satisfy his employer and the customers........At present he needs to improve or face the fact that he will be shown the door as said by MacNally.

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[quote user="Indy"]

These debates about if a change of manager would be a good thing or not are utterly pointless and getting rather borinng. Who thee hell knows if keeping Hughton or scking Hughton would be the best result for Norwich with 12 games to go? It''s pointless as each side ca only guess![/quote]

To a certain extent I agree with you Indy.My only quibble is with those who insist on trotting out this fallacious mantra that ''changing the manager doesn''t make any difference '' !

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