If we keep up Hughton MUST stay.

[dean 0]

Unless he is going to consistently use the attacking philosophy of the Spurs game then he needs to go at the end of the season.

[chicken 0]

Right. For me you have to look at several different things and the seasons we have had so far and the resources we''ve had at the disposal of the manager.

Prem season one under Lambert: limited funds - very direct, very smash and grab style football riding the crest of momentum of back to back promotions. Hit sticky ground after Christmas where many started to see the limitations of the squad and the fact that we only had one maybe two good enough defenders.

Season two: Hughton comes in. Has limited resources so has to pick carefully how and where he improves the squad and make do / works with the rest. The limitations of the squad seen at times last season are highlighted when injuries strike and the apparent lack of versatility in the team. This coupled with the deminished euphoria/momentum of promotions now diminished coupled with Lamberts style of exit made it exceedingly tough.

Season three: A new challenge. For the first time since promtion we have arguably a competetive player purchasing budget. A large lump for Norwich but realistically an average at best sum. However, unlike other teams we still needed numbers as much as quality. It was always going to signal a time of change to the squad and was always going to be about how the new players bedded in. Rather than bargains with prem expefience in the likes of Turner and Bassong we were going to have to take gambles.

For me this season was always going to be about showing promise but without being able to fully grasp it yet. A huge transitional season where we''d lose the camoraderie of the promotion years and have to develop a new mentality for a new era. Just as tough a season as the previous two but for different reasons.

If we stay up I can see this team growing.

In this day and age no manager is safe but staying up again would have to be a success when you consider on how few occaisions Hughton could have named anything near our best side this season.

[flying high up in the sky! 1]

If we get rid of hughton when we stay up we would get slaughtered in the press plus no manager would want to come here as would be under so much pressure! They would think if they don''t finish above (hughtons norwich) the axe will fall on them. Hughton is doing the best he can with the squad he has. I say keep.

[wooster 134]

Surely a responsible Board will ask CH, if we stay up, the following:

 

(a) what are the lessons learned from this season, good & bad points etc;

(b) what he would have done differently to improve things;

(c) what are his views as to potential targets to effect the changes needed to improve the club''s performance.

 

On the basis of these responses the Board will then understand the direction in which CH wants to take the club and whether that aligns with their own aspirations and beliefs.

 

One other factor might be the wishes of key players - for instance it would be nice to think that RVW & Fer will want to hang around to build on their first season in the PL etc.

 

 

[Tumbleweed 106]

Many posters on here said exactly the same thing last season as they are saying now- that having assured Prem status the team will push on and forge ahead. It hasn''t happened. Let us not beat around the bush- Spurs were truly awful on Sunday, just like Hull were awful when we beat them and West Ham imploded after that penalty (we had been nowhere in that game). I don''t consider only being able to beat teams on an off-day particularly successful, and grasping at straws that we did well against West Ham and Cardiff recently hides the fact that we still lost. I am very pleased that we won on Sunday but I am not suddenly leaping around thinking we''re on the yellow brick road marching ahead to glory. Nor do I believe that we were some crisis club when Lambert left, I see that as another excuse for a poor and stumbling managerial regime. But such are the ups and downs of being a City supporter- we have no right to be in a Prem Lge increasingly dominated by foreign investors and so we should just enjoy every season we survive in it since sure as eggs are eggs we''ll be relegated eventually. But, hopefully, not yet.

[morty 0]

[quote user="Tumbleweed"]Many posters on here said exactly the same thing last season as they are saying now- that having assured Prem status the team will push on and forge ahead. It hasn''t happened. Let us not beat around the bush- Spurs were truly awful on Sunday, just like Hull were awful when we beat them and West Ham imploded after that penalty (we had been nowhere in that game). I don''t consider only being able to beat teams on an off-day particularly successful, and grasping at straws that we did well against West Ham and Cardiff recently hides the fact that we still lost. I am very pleased that we won on Sunday but I am not suddenly leaping around thinking we''re on the yellow brick road marching ahead to glory. Nor do I believe that we were some crisis club when Lambert left, I see that as another excuse for a poor and stumbling managerial regime. But such are the ups and downs of being a City supporter- we have no right to be in a Prem Lge increasingly dominated by foreign investors and so we should just enjoy every season we survive in it since sure as eggs are eggs we''ll be relegated eventually. But, hopefully, not yet.[/quote]So you don''t consider Sunday''s victory was actually anything to do with us playing well, and it was all down to Spurs not?I have to say I disagree.

[morty 0]

[quote user="chicken"]Right. For me you have to look at several different things and the seasons we have had so far and the resources we''ve had at the disposal of the manager.

Prem season one under Lambert: limited funds - very direct, very smash and grab style football riding the crest of momentum of back to back promotions. Hit sticky ground after Christmas where many started to see the limitations of the squad and the fact that we only had one maybe two good enough defenders.

Season two: Hughton comes in. Has limited resources so has to pick carefully how and where he improves the squad and make do / works with the rest. The limitations of the squad seen at times last season are highlighted when injuries strike and the apparent lack of versatility in the team. This coupled with the deminished euphoria/momentum of promotions now diminished coupled with Lamberts style of exit made it exceedingly tough.

Season three: A new challenge. For the first time since promtion we have arguably a competetive player purchasing budget. A large lump for Norwich but realistically an average at best sum. However, unlike other teams we still needed numbers as much as quality. It was always going to signal a time of change to the squad and was always going to be about how the new players bedded in. Rather than bargains with prem expefience in the likes of Turner and Bassong we were going to have to take gambles.

For me this season was always going to be about showing promise but without being able to fully grasp it yet. A huge transitional season where we''d lose the camoraderie of the promotion years and have to develop a new mentality for a new era. Just as tough a season as the previous two but for different reasons.

If we stay up I can see this team growing.

In this day and age no manager is safe but staying up again would have to be a success when you consider on how few occaisions Hughton could have named anything near our best side this season.[/quote]Excellent post, can''t disagree with any of that[Y]I think a lot of people, myself included to some point, got a bit carried away with the money we spent, and perhaps set our expectations a bit high.

[Tumbleweed 106]

I wouldn''t normally respond to this sort of stuff but what I said was that Spurs were truly awful. Simply because I then did not launch into a detailed match analysis of other aspects does not mean that it is acceptable to then invent an opinion of mine which you then disagree with. In my opinion Spurs were awful.

[morty 0]

[quote user="Tumbleweed"]I wouldn''t normally respond to this sort of stuff but what I said was that Spurs were truly awful. Simply because I then did not launch into a detailed match analysis of other aspects does not mean that it is acceptable to then invent an opinion of mine which you then disagree with. In my opinion Spurs were awful.[/quote]And I said I disagree with your opinion.What did I invent exactly, you said that our victory was only managed because Spurs were "truly awful" which implies that it was somehow lucky on our part we caught them on an off day.You''re one of these people that is so agenda laden that you just can''t give your team a bit of credit for playing well, aren''t you?

[Wiz 0]

[quote user="Herman "]"I.S." You''re not related to Wiz by any chance, are you Jimbo? Definitely got hold of his flip-flops.[/quote]

 

No I have not Mr Herman, I clearly used the term ''fellow outers'' in my original post. I''ve just courted posters opinions on one possible future scenario.

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

[quote user="chicken"]Right. For me you have to look at several different things and the seasons we have had so far and the resources we''ve had at the disposal of the manager.

Prem season one under Lambert: limited funds - very direct, very smash and grab style football riding the crest of momentum of back to back promotions. Hit sticky ground after Christmas where many started to see the limitations of the squad and the fact that we only had one maybe two good enough defenders.

Season two: Hughton comes in. Has limited resources so has to pick carefully how and where he improves the squad and make do / works with the rest. The limitations of the squad seen at times last season are highlighted when injuries strike and the apparent lack of versatility in the team. This coupled with the deminished euphoria/momentum of promotions now diminished coupled with Lamberts style of exit made it exceedingly tough.

Season three: A new challenge. For the first time since promtion we have arguably a competetive player purchasing budget. A large lump for Norwich but realistically an average at best sum. However, unlike other teams we still needed numbers as much as quality. It was always going to signal a time of change to the squad and was always going to be about how the new players bedded in. Rather than bargains with prem expefience in the likes of Turner and Bassong we were going to have to take gambles.

For me this season was always going to be about showing promise but without being able to fully grasp it yet. A huge transitional season where we''d lose the camoraderie of the promotion years and have to develop a new mentality for a new era. Just as tough a season as the previous two but for different reasons.

If we stay up I can see this team growing.

In this day and age no manager is safe but staying up again would have to be a success when you consider on how few occaisions Hughton could have named anything near our best side this season.[/quote]I disagree. The underlying circumstances at the start of this season were significantly more favourable than at the start of the Lambert season (when we had a sub-standard squad) or Hughton''s first (when there was a new manager with all the problems of change).There was no upheaval or turmoil at the club to deal with, either in the

squad or the management team or the boardroom. All sweetness and light.In particular a manager in his second season who therefore could plan his transfer dealings from long before the summer. The debt was going, so that constraint would no longer apply. We didn''t need to sell to buy. Hence the ninth-biggest net transfer spend in Europe.All set fair for a season as successful as last. So far we are falling short, heading for 39 points compared with 44.

[Salopian 1]

Arguably Hughton is improving with experience, - he was not as experienced at the Premiership level as we had expected. He now seems to have got over the "defend at all costs, and see if we can nick one on the break!" approach, and with the signing of Yobo and the return of Tettey we seem to be able to play more attacking football because the defence is more secure.

If we finish mid-table, I think that would indicate moving in the right direction, and he would deserve another year and millions to spend. If, however, we miss relegation by the skin of our teeth, and especially if we go on one of his poor run of results, then I am not sure. He certainly doesn''t fill me with belief that he knows what he''s doing, even now.

So I do not share the view that any survival means he should carry on. It may be exciting to have periods of poor results finally redeemed by one or two good results which get him out of gaol, but this is no way to build for the future.

[Shaun Tilly Lace 0]

I''m not sure I agree with the OP''s proposition here. As I said elsewhere, Hughton went up somewhat in my judgment after Sunday''s great and deserved victory over Spurs, but there has been some very poor football at times this year. I am sure that the board have been discussing whether to stick or twist when it comes to who occupies the hot seat, and I think that they will continue to talk about this issue even if we stay in the Premiership.  I hope that they make the right decision and I don''t envy them as it is a tough one to make. It could be damned if you do - damned if you don''t.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,510]

[quote user="Salopian"]Arguably Hughton is improving with experience, - he was not as experienced at the Premiership level as we had expected. He now seems to have got over the "defend at all costs, and see if we can nick one on the break!" approach, and with the signing of Yobo and the return of Tettey we seem to be able to play more attacking football because the defence is more secure.

If we finish mid-table, I think that would indicate moving in the right direction, and he would deserve another year and millions to spend. If, however, we miss relegation by the skin of our teeth, and especially if we go on one of his poor run of results, then I am not sure. He certainly doesn''t fill me with belief that he knows what he''s doing, even now.

So I do not share the view that any survival means he should carry on. It may be exciting to have periods of poor results finally redeemed by one or two good results which get him out of gaol, but this is no way to build for the future.[/quote]Personally, my view is that he''s good enough. The goal count hasn''t been improving this year, but the chances created has been a massive improvement and only the players on the pitch can turn those chances into goals. Totally agree that he''s been working on shifting his focus to a more attacking style this season. The big setbacks this season have been having a lot of new players who were neither familiar with the premier league nor familiar with each other and also some really critical injuries in midfield. Norwich still has a massive amount growing to do in terms of investment in players on the pitch to be a serious Premier League contender. Our financial position puts us in a great position to do that, but it''s still going to be a matter of many seasons of investment, not just overnight. On that basis, so long as he delivers reasonably in terms of league position this season, I think allowing him to continue growing with the club is a good option as managerial stability brings its own reward.

[Tumbleweed 106]

Hi Morty

I said Spurs were awful. I didn''t say that we only won because they were awful. If you inferred that, then I think you are subconsciously or not seeking to make extrapolations to an "agenda" which doesn''t exist. FWIW I agree we played well and am truly delighted that we did so, but don''t invent my opinion that we only won because Spurs were awful, that is your inference from my statement. Disagree with your own inferences if you will.

TW

Back to the original post, I would love it if we went on a fabulous run of convincing form, but it is not as simple as survive and CH stays or even go down and be sacked. I''d imagine that there is a lot behind the scenes which will determine which way the Board will go. Those factors, invisible to us, will be hugely influential.

[City 2nd 191]

He won''t be retained IMO.

It''s not just about staying up it''s about results and entertainment - both quoted by DM recently.

And why do you punish failure - walk into a junior primary school class and say that.

And reward success - yes if it is with some achievement, and Hughton has achieved nothing YET, particularly keeping NCFC in the prem.

One swallow dies not make a summer - just as the win Sunday does not keep us up!

[chicken 0]

Purple said: "I disagree. The underlying circumstances at the start of this season were significantly more favourable than at the start of the Lambert season (when we had a sub-standard squad) or Hughton''s first (when there was a new manager with all the problems of change)."

Yes and no. I didn''t say they compared like for like difficulties, but that they faced equally difficult but different issues.

If you are looking purely at going into a new season I would agree but we are looking back at three seasons. To me it is clear that as a club we rode the crest of momentum - as we have seen in the two seasons since, it can be much harder to build that sort of momentum in this league - arriving here with it, and with the club and all of it''s support buzzing, was clearly a massive lift which dragged us over the line.

I would say this season is just as tough because we no longer have that momentum, the amount of money and players brought in means that any momentum from last season is at best, decreased as the new players arrive, bed in and get to understand their new team-mates.

"There was no upheaval or turmoil at the club to deal with, either in the squad or the management team or the boardroom. All sweetness and light."

I would disagree - in the summer before our first premiership season we allowed 10 players to leave permanently - they were:

- Matthew Gill, Luke Daley, Jens Berthel Askou, Sam Habergham, Owain Tudor Jones, Steven Smith, Stephen Hughes, Cody McDonald, Anthony McNamee, Oli Johnson.

Of those, how many were genuinely part of the Championship side from the season before? Lets at least rule out Daley and Habergham.

We signed six players with another two on loan prior to the start of that season.

This year, the summer ins and outs were 15 players:

- Grant Holt, Simeon Jackson, Marc Tierney, Elliott Ward, Chris Martin, James Vaughan, Leon Barnett, Jacob Butterfield, Kory Smith, Tom Adeyemi, Jed Steer, Lee Camp, George Francomb, Ramill Sheriff, Durojaiye.

Again, being fair you would reduce that by two to four to take into account youngsters that never really featured as part of the first team squad. However rather than losing reserves so to speak, we were losing players in and around the previous seasons match day squad.

We signed 8 players of which one was on loan. You could rule out Garrido who had been on loan the previous season. Even if you do disagree still, it''s certainly not clear cut. You can''t say that losing your club captain and a number of players that were a big part of the promotion from the Championship and the following season''s survival is easier than losing players that first summer, that were hardly deemed good enough for League One let alone the premier league.

"In particular a manager in his second season who therefore could plan his transfer dealings from long before the summer. The debt was going, so that constraint would no longer apply. We didn''t need to sell to buy. Hence the ninth-biggest net transfer spend in Europe."

But as I said, we were playing catch up - I also call pony on that 9th biggest net transfer spend in Europe. It tends to include Garrido and RVW who were signed with the previous seasons budget according to McNally.

On top of that look how much we spent the previous two seasons. We spent less than £10million prior to season one and around £5 in January give or take a pinch. Season two we spent under £10million prior to the start - arguably less than the season before.

What makes this poignant is that other equivalent premier league teams such as Swansea and Southampton were already spending more than us. We may have spent more this season but we needed to, just to compete - and in fact, play catch up with those teams that had been more freely spending before and now also had the TV money like us.

"All set fair for a season as successful as last. So far we are falling short, heading for 39 points compared with 44."

We could be in for a very strange points comparison by the end of this season. Under Lambert we finished the season 12th on 47 points. Last season we finished 11th on 44 points. It''s not entirely unfeasible to suggest we could finish in or around that position once more but with a reduced points total once more.

Position in the table is always more comparable than points. It says more about the league as a whole for starters. How good the other teams were, perhaps how competitive it was and even how difficult it was for any team to really string a consistent run of results together.

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

chicken,  I take some of your points. But - and I don''t think you disagree with this -  I stick to my view that everything was set up for us to do at least as well this season as last. That the advantages at least equalled any disadvantages. Actually I believe the set-up was the best of the three seasons, with significantly more advantages than disadvantages,  and so theoretically we should be doing better than before. But I wasn''t expecting or predicting that. But we should not be doing worse. Yet we are.

[chicken 0]

No I don''t disagree with some of what you are saying.

However, essentially this season saw more gambles. We lost players that had proven they could do a job at this level and went for players that had never performed at this level. That will always be a risk, a gamble. But the type you have to take to try and move on.

You have to take into account the time it takes those players to bed in, to find their feet in this league. We hadn''t really had that risk before because we seldom brought in players that had no experience of British/English football.

And again, in what ways do you see our actually chances of a higher finish improved? The money - I have already shown that to be a bit of a fallacy. The player turn-over? Shown to be as bad as the first season if not worse.

Yes, in many ways we were perhaps more ''stable'' but I don''t think you can discount the effect of Holt''s departure even if his stock on the pitch was on the decline.

I did like what I saw in pre season and hoped we could improve, but I also looked at those about us who had spent £10million plus on players rather than £8.5million. Cardiff spent more than us.

I think you have to be careful not to fall into the trap that because we had more money we were better prepared. I just don''t see that.

And like I said - we are doing worse on points at the moment - but not necessarily in terms of table positioning. Especially when you take into account many people feel we were a tad lucky towards the end of last season which perhaps gave us a loftier position than we had looked like achieving. And only in the last handful of fixtures in the season.

Points and position have to be taken into account in my books.

Would you complain if we scored 45 points but finished 16th when compared to say, 44 points and finish 14th?

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

[quote user="chicken"]Points and position have to be taken into account in my books.

Would you complain if we scored 45 points but finished 16th when compared to say, 44 points and finish 14th?[/quote]I take both into account but in terms of measuring a manager''s performance I go by points. I think you have to. My target for Hughton this season was a point either side of last season''s 44, so 43-45. We are currently racking up 1.03 points per game (compared with 1.157 last season), putting us on course for 39 points.

[Fuzzar 1,702]

And if we beat Villa, that will immediately jump to 1.10 points per game...

Obviously only the full season will tell the full story and CH''s performance will be evaluated at that point.

I do believe he has been damaged this year, but not irreparably. If the final third or so goes well, with a full and fit squad to choose from, I''d hazard a guess that he''ll stay.

Strengthening a squad that has a few obvious weaknesses and underperforming again next year would be another story...

[Herman 9,713]

"Jimbo Canary"

"Herman "

"I.S." You''re not related to Wiz by any chance, are you Jimbo? Definitely got hold of his flip-flops

No I have not Mr Herman, I clearly used the term ''fellow outers'' in my original post. I''ve just courted posters opinions on one possible future scenario.

I simply don''t understand your extreme change of opinion after one win. If we have a poor result against Villa will you be calling for Hughtons head again?

[Wiz 0]

[quote user="Herman "]"Jimbo Canary" "Herman " "I.S." You''re not related to Wiz by any chance, are you Jimbo? Definitely got hold of his flip-flops No I have not Mr Herman, I clearly used the term ''fellow outers'' in my original post. I''ve just courted posters opinions on one possible future scenario. I simply don''t understand your extreme change of opinion after one win. If we have a poor result against Villa will you be calling for Hughtons head again?[/quote]

 

Is it extreme though Mr Herman? I still reside in the ''OUT'' camp atm but I must also consider that the arguement will change somewhat if he should keep us up.

[Scooby 0]

[quote user="Salopian"]Arguably Hughton is improving with experience, - he was not as experienced at the Premiership level as we had expected. He now seems to have got over the "defend at all costs, and see if we can nick one on the break!" approach, and with the signing of Yobo and the return of Tettey we seem to be able to play more attacking football because the defence is more secure.

If we finish mid-table, I think that would indicate moving in the right direction, and he would deserve another year and millions to spend. If, however, we miss relegation by the skin of our teeth, and especially if we go on one of his poor run of results, then I am not sure. He certainly doesn''t fill me with belief that he knows what he''s doing, even now.

So I do not share the view that any survival means he should carry on. It may be exciting to have periods of poor results finally redeemed by one or two good results which get him out of gaol, but this is no way to build for the future.[/quote]

You have a point, the one I was going to make, but I think you''re wrong.

Everyone is on about keeping us up being a success but is that enough and is it progress. We expect the players to improve and then the team to improve, but what about the manager? Shouldn''t he improve too? Should more experience in the premier league make him a better manager? Are we not expecting his tactics, game plans, whatever you want to call it, to be better than they were last year? You think he is improving, I beg to differ. He''s not, and therefore I think we need a change whether we stay up or not.

[Scooby 0]

By the way, when I said I thought you were wrong I meant the opening statement, not the whole post, which was good :-)

[Tumbleweed 106]

To me it is also much more than simply whether we reach 17th or above. There are two things this season which really stick in my mind which sort of sum up my doubts.

The first was Snodgrass taking the ball from RvW for the penalty in that game against Villa. Not a good sign of team unity and respect to the manager. It has nagged at me all season and we have had many instances of players arguing with each other on the pitch.

The second is the tactical implications of playing two inverted wingers. Hoddles put it quite nicely on the TV analysis, it means we very rarely get to the byline and have dangerous balls coming in across goal behind the defenders. Olsson did this once on Sunday and we were a whisker away from two players getting on the end of it. I would just like CH to experiment a bit more and swap them over, even if to just keep the opposition guessing.

These are just two examples of where I have nagging concerns about the general approach, we may survive but is CH capable of the control and imagination required to push us further? He needs to evolve just as the team and the club do.

[morty 0]

"many instances of players arguing with each other on the pitch"We have?

[BOO 0]

Hughtons future at the club will not be determined by what has happened but by what will happen. If we finish the season well and get to 40 ish points while playing some good footy he will stay.

If we go down or just manage to hang on in there, and go back to playing the dire dross of the past then he will go.

The signs for me indicate the former scenario.

[TCCANARY 263]

"The second is the tactical implications of playing two inverted wingers."

 

On Sunday the goal came from Snodgrass curling the ball into the corner with his left foot, if he wasn''t playing as an inverted winger he wouldn''t have been in position to do this.

 

 

[ron obvious 1,499]

Noticed the commentators on the ManU game last night saying that using inverted wingers was now the favoured setup in the prem.