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Wiz

If we keep up Hughton MUST stay.

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Sorry to my fellow Outers but you don''t just ditch a man who keeps you in the Premier League two seasons running, that would be just crazy.

 

You punish failure but you must also reward success. Agreed?

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I agree that you punish failure and reward success. That''s not the issue.

The issue is whether finishing 17th and a couple of points from relegation is a failure or a success?

Given that we have finished 12th and 11th in the Premier League the past two seasons and that we spent 20-25 million on players in 2013, I would argue that IF we do only finish 16th-17th and survive by the skin of our teeth, then it has not been a successful season, it has been a failure.

And we agree that you must punish failure.

Agreed?

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[quote user="canarydan23"]I agree that you punish failure and reward success. That''s not the issue. The issue is whether finishing 17th and a couple of points from relegation is a failure or a success? Given that we have finished 12th and 11th in the Premier League the past two seasons and that we spent 20-25 million on players in 2013, I would argue that IF we do only finish 16th-17th and survive by the skin of our teeth, then it has not been a successful season, it has been a failure. And we agree that you must punish failure. Agreed?[/quote]

 

By my definition Mr Dan, relegation is total failure, staying up in one of the hardest leagues in Europe is success.

 

Sorry.

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You''re not related to Wiz by any chance, are you Jimbo?

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Staying up doesn''t guarantee a job. Teams sack managers when they stay up.
We''ve finished mid table twice now, the aim isn''t to finish 17th just managing to hold on. Something that could happen, or we could spring back up to 11th/12th like we managed last season with two final wins after a terrible second half season.
The problem is, like last season we''ve had a long spell with limited results. You can''t keep doing that. Stoke got rid of Pulis because he wasn''t getting them any further. Newcastle got rid of Hughton sharpish because they decided they had a better option, and that seems like a fairly good decision now. Simply staying up shouldn''t be the only target of a manager who had the biggest transfer budget this club has had. Their needs to be development, if not in the table then on the pitch. If we can actually put on our scoring boots and keep playing like we have the last half dozen games then maybe we have the right set up. He''s starting to find selection dilemmas, RVW or Hooper? Hooper hasn''t scored in two months, RVW not since beginning of season. RVW won the ball to set up the goal yesterday, Hooper missed three good chances against West Ham but nearly set up a goal yesterday. Where does Howson fit in, our midfield three looked very good yesterday building on recent good displays. Three fit wingers with Bennett back in training. Turner will be fit again soon and we finally have Bassong back on form and a very solid Yobo.
If we can actually manage a couple of decisive wins, putting away 2/3/4 even of the many many good chances we''ve created in recent games maybe Hughton''s team can finally show why Hughton deserves to keep his job.
But if we limp over the line, no, Hughton shouldn''t stay. But yesterday and recent performances (minus the goal conceding mistakes and somehow not scoring despite a billion good chances) show we are moving in the right direction. We just need to keep moving without taking two steps back first!

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I used to think your way Jimbo but I agree with Dan - something''s not been quite right this season, flirting with the relegation zone and scoring so few goals cannot be the limit of our potential.

 

Hughton''s done really well to keep us up so far - did excellently last season - and we should be so grateful, but you need to move on when it looks like the high-water mark has been achieved and if a manager providing a different chemistry can be brought in to improve things.

 

Perhaps most of all I''m happy with the measured way the Board seems to be timing any change for the end of the season (or earlier if things get desperate). This also allows the option to keep Chris, if things seriously turn around off the back of a morale-booster like yesterday

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But there are no guarantees that changing a manager will improve things. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn''t. Newcastle came even closer to relegation than we did last season but they didn''t sack Pardew and now they are reaping the benefits. Yet that''s no guarantee that they won''t flirt with relegation again next season.

And I hate this mantra about improving season on season and references to the largest transfer kitty ever handed to an NCFC manager. Have people checked how many other managers were also handed a decent transfer kitty or whether these other clubs started from the same base that we did? Why do our fans expect that we will improve more than any other clubs? In your experience observing football for x number of years; is there always a direct correlation between the number of pounds spent and league placement?

And if it is so easy to improve season on season then how come every club isn''t doing it? How many other clubs in the history of the Premier League have improved season-on-season for a sustained period? There will always be fluctuations and you can''t just pin every downturn on the manager. Far too many confounding factors are at play over the course of any given season.

Yes, the manager plays a pivotal role and every manager will ultimately leave the club, either through his success with us or through his failure. I just think some fans (at every club) lack patience and perspective. "I''m not getting what I want and I want it now! Just sack the clueless halfwit; it''s that easy. The grass is always greener anywhere but here".

In my experience, the grass is not always greener and you should be careful what you wish for. I''d rather have a bird in the hand than some vague notion/gamble of one in the bush (er...so to speak).

This ramble is going somewhere rather awkward. Think I''ll get me coat and leave...

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[quote user="Chip20"]

This ramble is going somewhere rather awkward. Think I''ll get me coat and leave...[/quote]Shame… was enjoying reading the thoughts of someone else that so closely match my own. I feel less alone in the footballing world now!

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My view that Hughton should be replaced is born out of many months of concern, humiliations, tactical limitations and everything else which we observe on the pitch. I have no knowledge of what else goes on behind the scenes. Just because we have a great result won''t make me change my mind, just as when we had our first defeat I didn''t decide instantly that he had to go. IF we start playing well on a regular basis and pick up points regularly without ending up in an end-of-season relegation bun fight then not only will I be delighted but I may well think that things have finally turned. But bearing in mind the total shambles that some other clubs have been in, scraping 17th will not in my book necessarily mean that Hughton should stay. Yesterday was fantastic, definitely the highlight of the season so far, I''m now looking for signs that this is the norm rather than the exception.

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Sadly this kind of thing is my biggest fear, great result yesterday but if Hughton is not able to put together a team within 2 seasons that can consistently go into games in a positive manner and look to score more than a goal a game then it should still in my opinion be time for a change regardless of staying up.

He has the rest of the season to show that he is the man for the job and that is in terms of progress not in terms of finished article. My worry is that as has been shown he is cautious to a fault we will see if he can change his spots and take us forward, I hope so but I am far from sure.

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Before you go, Chip

As I said I''m absolutely open to the possibility of City keeping CH if there is a convincing and sustained improvement in results from now on.

 

This season I have frequently referred to our recent history and financial position, and our relative squad value and wage bill to reject the knee-jerk "we are doomed, sack him now" calls.

 

Our club''s publicly stated targets this season have been variously A) "continuous improvement: 10th or better", B) "budget to finish 16th" and C) "avoid relegation and see how much better we can do". So far we have done OK on two out of these three targets. However to be fair we have failed target A for 96% of the season by matchday, and target C has only recently emerged so is best described as a contingency in response to events.

 

As others have pointed out in the past, relative performance measured by points rather than position is perhaps a more reliable measure for monitoring... sadly (which arguably would be the right word to use if I did) I don''t have those figures.

 

Something just needs to click and stay clicked, as it hasn''t done so far except for the odd game like yesterday - as vital as those have been for our survival.

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You''ve gone overboard, Chip.

If spending money doesn''t guarantee success, why do people keep saying we shouldn''t expect to be a top 6 club?

And no, clubs can''t improve forever, but we haven''t even maintained in a season that was chock full of promise and expectations when it began. With all the new talent, our goal wasn''t to finish barely above relegation.

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The issue if we stay up is the utter rubbish, boring, negative football we have played for 80% of the season.

it is mind numbing at times and some of the tactical decisions have been baffling.

Yes great result yesterday and great second half performance, but the first half was crap. If spurs had played to their potential we would have been out of the game by half time.

Even if we do stay up it''s still out for me.

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"I.S."

You''re not related to Wiz by any chance, are you Jimbo?

Definitely got hold of his flip-flops.

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Thing is there''s a lot of variables to consider in all this. All else being equal, add 30 million quid to your squad value, you''d expect to be better. Other clubs also invest however. Additionally, with a massive number of changes to your players on the pitch, said players won''t know each other so well, won''t be able to anticipate each other as well so the play will probably be worse, even though the individual players are superior. That''s broadly where we''ve been for a lot of this season.

On the other hand, I think we''ve reached a tipping point where the current squad is starting to outshine last years. Our play is looking more fluid, we''re creating a lot more chances, our defence is looking solid and even actually passing out from the back, which is a recent development. Only missing ingredient is converting a greater proportion of the chances into goals, but that''s up to the players and not something the manager can do for them.

In the unlikely event we are relegated, he should and will go, but I don''t think that will happen. And if we stay up then the development over this season will definitely merit another crack of the whip.

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I was saying before the game yesterday that my worst case scenario is for us to stay up AND Hughton stays. I really want us to stay up but I do not want another season of the boring football we have endured most of this season and the previous one. Sometimes we pull a performance out of the bag like yesterday, and if Hughton could make that the norm, albeit with a bit more cutting edge in front of goal, I''d be happy for him to stay. But the last thing I want is to start another campaign with Hughton in charge and to start every game trying not to lose, rather than going out to win.

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[quote user="I.S."]You''re not related to Wiz by any chance, are you Jimbo?[/quote]

 

Sigh, yet again NO Mr I.S.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[quote user="Jimbo Canary"]

Sorry to my fellow Outers but you don''t just ditch a man who keeps you in the Premier League two seasons running, that would be just crazy.

 

You punish failure but you must also reward success. Agreed?

[/quote]Indeed. If we "keep up" Hughton WILL stay as well. He''ll likely get a contract extension to boot.

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I firmly believe that irrespective of whether we stay up or not Hughton will be sacked. In a perfect world he keeps us up, he goes without a major blemish on his cv, we move on.

Only time will tell of course

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[quote user="Alfie54"]I firmly believe that irrespective of whether we stay up or not Hughton will be sacked. In a perfect world he keeps us up, he goes without a major blemish on his cv, we move on.

Only time will tell of course[/quote]

Just had our best result of the season. The team finally start to look to be clicking.  If we carry on playing well and stay up it means that Hughton''s team/squad are starting to reap the rewards of all the development work.   Why would we sack someone in who we have invested a lot of money in terms of him getting his players in, when he is being successful?   Success breeds success and if we are successful in staying up, next year could be a revelation.   Hughton teams have always scored goals. Next season just could be the season it all happens, goals, entertainment, results, cup run. We have certainly been entertained at CR recently and if the goals start to go in a bit more often, we could well be where we want to be next season, challenging higher up the table. 

Being successful but changing the manager would be a strange and risky thing to do. 

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Alfie54 wrote:

I firmly believe that irrespective of whether we stay up or not Hughton will be sacked. In a perfect world he keeps us up, he goes without a major blemish on his cv, we move on. Only time will tell of course

LDC wrote

Just had our best result of the season. The team finally start to look to be clicking. If we carry on playing well and stay up it means that Hughton''s team/squad are starting to reap the rewards of all the development work. Why would we sack someone in who we have invested a lot of money in terms of him getting his players in, when he is being successful? Success breeds success and if we are successful in staying up, next year could be a revelation. Hughton teams have always scored goals. Next season just could be the season it all happens, goals, entertainment, results, cup run. We have certainly been entertained at CR recently and if the goals start to go in a bit more often, we could well be where we want to be next season, challenging higher up the table.

Being successful but changing the manager would be a strange and risky thing to do.

I disagree I don''t recall that many entertaining matches, how you measure success is a difficult one too, is clinging on all we aspire to?The best teams don''t sit on their laurels they make tough decisions to progress, Man U being the best example of this in recent years. Whether you or I agree that he should stay is irrelevant, my point is that I believe that the decision has been made, he will be gone.

As I said earlier, only time will tell

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[quote user="Alfie54"]Whether you or I agree that he should stay is irrelevant, my point is that I believe that the decision has been made, he will be gone.

As I said earlier, only time will tell[/quote]

I don''t believe that for one minute.  Decisions like that not made in that way.  One or two remarks of other people on here who think they are "in the know"  are just whistling in the wind.  The most that could be said is that McNally has ideas as to who might replace Hughton - if he needs to be replaced.  If he doesn''t need to be replaced because he is starting to get the best out of the squad, he won''t be replaced. 

I don''t think decisions of this nature can be made well in advance.   Success is success.  Sacking a successful manager - if he is successful in keeping us up and continues the improvements we have seen recently - would be stark staring bonkers imo.

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