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Beefy is a legend

Negative?

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Here are the total goals scored in the bottom half of the league as of today.

Crystal Palace 14

Cardiff City 17

Norwich City 18

Sunderland 21

Aston Villa 22

Hull City 22

Fulham 22

West Ham Utd 22

West Bromwich Albion 23

Swansea City 26

Statistically we are third lowest, but there''s very little between all the Clubs except perhaps Swansea. Lambert''s Villa have lost 7 out of 11 home games, scoring only 8 goals, compared to Hughton''s Norwich, who have taken 15 points from 11 home games, scoring 11 goals.

So how negative are we?

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From that, it''s clear we should be doing better. We have only 2 newly promoted teams below us and West Ham despite not really having a striker all year are 4 goals ahead. With the money we spent on new strikers, we''re about 5 goals short of where we should be.

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That''s the problem a lot of people have Beefy.

We are on a par with teams we were better than last season, essentially. Or even if we weren''t, we haven''t improved, at all. Not defensively, not in attack. Not in points, not in performance.

And signing players like Fer, Hooper, RVW people expected more. And it has been very disappointing.

We''ll stay up, but not as easily as I and many thought we would.

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[quote user="Gingerpele"]That''s the problem a lot of people have Beefy.

We are on a par with teams we were better than last season, essentially. Or even if we weren''t, we haven''t improved, at all. Not defensively, not in attack. Not in points, not in performance.

And signing players like Fer, Hooper, RVW people expected more. And it has been very disappointing.

We''ll stay up, but not as easily as I and many thought we would.[/quote]In retrospect, do you think that some peoples expectations were, perhaps, slightly unrealistic?

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No.

Some people perhaps, I don''t know what everyone expected. Some people were probably thinking of cup wins and qualifying for Europe like Swansea.

But I think many people''s expectations would have been to match Swansea from last season (league wise), maybe be on a par with Southampton. Why have Southampton left us trailing? I see no reason, why at the beginning the season we shouldn''t have been as optimistic as Southampton, and realistic about finishing in a a similar position, potentially above them. Than wasn''t unrealistic.

We signed a few new good players, kept all our best players. And surely you agree there has been no progression? With some quite logical reasons to think we''ve gone backwards too.

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[quote user="Gingerpele"]That''s the problem a lot of people have Beefy.

We are on a par with teams we were better than last season, essentially. Or even if we weren''t, we haven''t improved, at all. Not defensively, not in attack. Not in points, not in performance.

And signing players like Fer, Hooper, RVW people expected more. And it has been very disappointing.

We''ll stay up, but not as easily as I and many thought we would.[/quote]

Injuries have affected our progress.   Bennett and Pilkington.  Two who promised much this season imo.  Put more pressure on Snodgrass and Redmond.Howson and Tettey.  Two who promised much this season.    More onus on Johnson.Turner and Bassong have both been out too.   Hooper and RVW - both had significant lengths out of the side, let alone play together.Practically the backbone of our arguably best side. How are we supposed to improve consistently with that scenario?   We have other good players of course, but when you''re talking about the first team, consistency has been hard to come by for the above reasons.   Squad wise we have developing players, one or two who may not be good enough and overall it is building well, but circumstances have made it harder.   Its not an excuse, its a reason.  

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[quote user="Gingerpele"]No.

Some people perhaps, I don''t know what everyone expected. Some people were probably thinking of cup wins and qualifying for Europe like Swansea.

But I think many people''s expectations would have been to match Swansea from last season (league wise), maybe be on a par with Southampton. Why have Southampton left us trailing? I see no reason, why at the beginning the season we shouldn''t have been as optimistic as Southampton, and realistic about finishing in a a similar position, potentially above them. Than wasn''t unrealistic.

We signed a few new good players, kept all our best players. And surely you agree there has been no progression? With some quite logical reasons to think we''ve gone backwards too.[/quote]The season isn''t over yet though, is it?What happens if we finish above Swansea, will it be a success then?

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[quote user="lake district canary"]
Injuries have affected our progress.   Bennett and Pilkington.  Two who promised much this season imo.  Put more pressure on Snodgrass and Redmond.Howson and Tettey.  Two who promised much this season.    More onus on Johnson.Turner and Bassong have both been out too.   Hooper and RVW - both had significant lengths out of the side, let alone play together.Practically the backbone of our arguably best side. How are we supposed to improve consistently with that scenario?   We have other good players of course, but when you''re talking about the first team, consistency has been hard to come by for the above reasons.   Squad wise we have developing players, one or two who may not be good enough and overall it is building well, but circumstances have made it harder.   Its not an excuse, its a reason.  

[/quote]
Can''t believe I''m saying this but.... totally agree LDC! [:P] Hell just froze over...

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To LDC every team has to cope with injuries. As far as I''m aware Hughton hasn''t made a big deal out of it, which is good. Get fed up of managers like Pardew and Wenger moaning they have a couple players injured.

Every team has injuries, nearly every team has key injuries. Arsenal have suffered for years, having two or three key players with long term injuries. Man.U this season the same. Swansea have had Michu out for large periods. Very few teams have been able to be consistent in results. But we haven''t even been consistent in effort or general performance/tactics etc. Many thought Villa would be unstoppable this season because of the potential they showed last year, so moving partially onto Mortys point as well now...

I have seen very little to suggest we will ever fulfil that potential. Fer has had the same problems all season, with no improvement. Just one example, mentioned it a bit in my match ratings thread.

Sure, we could finish the sesson off well, I really hope we do and Hughton does turn out to be the right man for the job. Would be much simpler. But at the moment I just can''t see it. Great win yesterday, much needed and overal good performance. The negative for me is, that has come after half a dozen poor results and/or performances. You can''t keep a club going like that. We essentially need another 10 game unbeaten run for me to class this season as a success. Because without any obvious signs of progression it''s just a repeat of last season.

And finishing above Swansea, depends where they finish. If they barley win another game then no. Obviously everything is much easier to judge in hindsight at the end of the season, but Swansea fans are probably fairly disappointed with their league form and haven''t progressed in that sense. But they''ve won a cup last year and played European football this season. I''d certainly take that scenario over our own at the moment, wouldn''t you?

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I have no interest in European football right now, I would rather see us further establish ourselves in the league.People really are going to have to get used to a bit of mediocrity I''m afraid.

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[quote user="morty"][quote user="Gingerpele"]That''s the problem a lot of people have Beefy.

We are on a par with teams we were better than last season, essentially. Or even if we weren''t, we haven''t improved, at all. Not defensively, not in attack. Not in points, not in performance.

And signing players like Fer, Hooper, RVW people expected more. And it has been very disappointing.

We''ll stay up, but not as easily as I and many thought we would.[/quote]In retrospect, do you think that some peoples expectations were, perhaps, slightly unrealistic?[/quote]
I think people probably expected us to (keeping on par with this thread) be a bit better than the 3rd lowest goal - scorers this season. And i think that''s a fairly realistic expectation to have.

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That''s fine I never expected or necessarily wanted European football.

But Swansea won a cup, and are probably going to stay up this season. And got to play in Europe. I see no downside to that. They could easily finish above us again, that''s of course still very much up to debate. But if they do, then it''s very disappointing that Swansea a similar sized club who we came up with (ahead of too) have excelled past us, and now unless they slump for the rest of the season, Southampton too.

Of course we''ve gone ahead of sides like Villa in last two years, and now the likes of West Ham and Fulham in the league. But to be honest, nothing on the pitch and within the management team other then the abstract notion of potential suggests in the next couple seasons we won''t slide down like West Ham and Fulham.

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[quote user="hogesar"][quote user="morty"][quote user="Gingerpele"]That''s the problem a lot of people have Beefy.

We are on a par with teams we were better than last season, essentially. Or even if we weren''t, we haven''t improved, at all. Not defensively, not in attack. Not in points, not in performance.

And signing players like Fer, Hooper, RVW people expected more. And it has been very disappointing.

We''ll stay up, but not as easily as I and many thought we would.[/quote]In retrospect, do you think that some peoples expectations were, perhaps, slightly unrealistic?[/quote]
I think people probably expected us to (keeping on par with this thread) be a bit better than the 3rd lowest goal - scorers this season. And i think that''s a fairly realistic expectation to have.
[/quote]But thats also another point, everyone judges under different criteria. Clean sheets, goals scored, league position. Some even say they would rather we went down fighting. Personally I will put up with the uninspiring football until things click up front.Staying in the league is way more important than being entertained just now, unfortunately.

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So you think we''ve done better then Morty?

I''ll skip your one line predictable response and counter it with;

How on earth can you ignore Swansea? They have done better than us within similar circumstances and budgets, three key things went right form them and not us.

Natural progression with the manager. Laudrup carried on their style, didn''t need a drastic change in approach. Hughton did.

Michu. One of the biggest bargains ever. Nothing we did wrong there really, they got ''lucky''

Selling Allen for £15 million, again nothing we did wrong. They got very lucky in my opinion.

I think your response is extremely juvenile. Why in earth shouldn''t we be compared to Swansea? The only reason I can see is that they''ve done better than us and you''d rather ignore that fact.

If you like I''ll forget them and move onto Southampton? Or even Villa, they are now starting to look like they are progressing, away from home anyway. Or are we not allowed to mention other teams in the league we play in because they are clearly completely irrelevant because Norfolk is in a bubble separate from the rest of the world....

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[quote user="Gingerpele"]So you think we''ve done better then Morty?

I''ll skip your one line predictable response and counter it with;

How on earth can you ignore Swansea? They have done better than us within similar circumstances and budgets, three key things went right form them and not us.

Natural progression with the manager. Laudrup carried on their style, didn''t need a drastic change in approach. Hughton did.

Michu. One of the biggest bargains ever. Nothing we did wrong there really, they got ''lucky''

Selling Allen for £15 million, again nothing we did wrong. They got very lucky in my opinion.

I think your response is extremely juvenile. Why in earth shouldn''t we be compared to Swansea? The only reason I can see is that they''ve done better than us and you''d rather ignore that fact.

If you like I''ll forget them and move onto Southampton? Or even Villa, they are now starting to look like they are progressing, away from home anyway. Or are we not allowed to mention other teams in the league we play in because they are clearly completely irrelevant because Norfolk is in a bubble separate from the rest of the world....[/quote]I am a Norwich City fan, I would much rather talk about them, than carp on about how great another team are....

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[quote user="Gingerpele"]To LDC every team has to cope with injuries.[/quote]

Yes and we are coping. [:)] The richer clubs you mentioned that have injuries are in a better position to cope with them than we are.   Its a mixed bag, this "negative"  idea though.   Its a combination of things.   People often refer to " the calender year" last year as being some great negative blot on the landscape.   However, it was ultimately successful, it allowed new players in during the Summer - and with the injuries and new players settling - that has partly affected progress this season.   I would also accept that Hughton has to take some criticism, as he learns how to get the best from the players available - he is going to make mistakes, but he is also - imo - get more right than he gets wrong.  

We are coping - and we see time and time again - despite the difficulties and pressure - that Hughton and the players have the wherewithal  to get things right when it really matters.

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I''m a Norwich fan Morty. But funnily enough Norwich play in a league with other teams. That are directly relevant and linked to the discussion of our club. I don''t go on about Swansea, can''t remember the last time I even thought about them, let alone posted about then. But if your perfectly happy with everything then well done.

And yes LDC, we are coping. But we aren''t progressing and there are reasons for that, but quite reasonably people are disappointed with certain aspects. I''m sure you can see I''m no where near the level of some people on here, but I''m not fully satisfied at all.

And no I didn''t expect us to go full steam ahead and win the FA cup and finish seventh. But what I''m not happy with is getting to a situation in which many saw as a win or get sacked situation for Hughton. I''m not happy with losing to a team at home that then went and lost six nil. To seeing players like Barry and Parker score screamers against us, the GOTS competition could easily consist of entirely goals scored against us.

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The crux of your post pele seems to be that a repeat of last season will be seen as failure. Respectfully, I disagree. 11th place for us is success and if we achieve it again this year I''ll be delighted.

As I''ve said on another thread, the board do need to take stock in the summer as to whether they feel CH can ''progress'' us to this next level that some fans seem to have expected this season. I''m open minded about that because CH has steadied us but I think it''s fair to say he hasn''t really taken us forward. That is partly, in my view, because taking us forward is going to be extremely difficult to do. Southampton are the only side to break out of the bottom 10 teams fighting for 40pts this year and even they are on a poor run right now. Some good managers like Allardyce, Jol and Laudrup have found it hard to do so is it right to chastise Hughton that we don''t already have 30pts?

I dose of realism is needed methinks. Hughton isn''t pulling up trees here but he''s doing a solid job and maybe, in seasons two and three back at this level, that is what we need.

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[quote user="Gingerpele"]So you think we''ve done better then Morty?

I''ll skip your one line predictable response and counter it with;

How on earth can you ignore Swansea? They have done better than us within similar circumstances and budgets
, three key things went right form them and not us.

Natural progression with the manager. Laudrup carried on their style, didn''t need a drastic change in approach. Hughton did.

Michu. One of the biggest bargains ever. Nothing we did wrong there really, they got ''lucky''

Selling Allen for £15 million, again nothing we did wrong. They got very lucky in my opinion.

I think your response is extremely juvenile. Why in earth shouldn''t we be compared to Swansea? The only reason I can see is that they''ve done better than us and you''d rather ignore that fact.

If you like I''ll forget them and move onto Southampton? Or even Villa, they are now starting to look like they are progressing, away from home anyway. Or are we not allowed to mention other teams in the league we play in because they are clearly completely irrelevant because Norfolk is in a bubble separate from the rest of the world....[/quote]Perceptions are funny aren''t they. As Swansea are the media darlings, and play lovely football with a nice fashionable foreign manager., everyone aspires to do as well as Swansea and hold them up as the yard stick.Swansea''s points total in 2012/13 was 46 in the league, finishing 9th. Norwich finished 2 places behind them on 44 points. So far this year, Swansea have 21 league points. We have 23.Total up both teams points since the start of the 2012/13 season, they''re identical on 67 points.OK, Swansea did win a cup, but that aside, when you look at the results, I don''t think Swansea are the raging runaway success many make them out to be. Equally, Norwich are not the hapless, dire club in free fall either.If our aim is to equal Swansea, we''re doing OK.

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